DS2 Vs. DL vs. DL2

LBear · Mar 7, 2006

I'm trying to decide between DS2 vs. DL vs. DL2

Difference between DS2 and DL:
Auto ISO
3-point wide AF (*ist DS was 11 area)
Wide / spot AF
Continuous shooting buffer reduced to 5 / 3 images (JPEG / RAW)
Penta-mirror viewfinder instead of Penta-prism, 0.85x magnification
Natural-Bright-Matte II focusing screen
Removal of high speed sync flash

Difference between DL and DL2:
5-point wide AF (*ist DL was 3 area)
DOF preview (?)

I don't care about high speed sync flash and continious shooting but I'd like to ask your opinion about:
1) how important to have more than 3 point AF?

2) I'm not sure what is "Penta-mirror viewfinder" and "Penta-prism" and difference it makes. My guess this is to shoot with LCD screen off, I don't use this mode.
3) what is "Natural-Bright-Matte II focusing screen" and what advantages it has?

Thanks in advance.

cheddargav · Mar 7, 2006

Considering the price of the DL at the mo, I don't think the DS has enough extra that you would require. I'd go for that with the kit lens, then treat yourself to an FA50 1.4
--
The owner of a *ist DS

LBear · Mar 7, 2006

The only consideration that keeps me from going with DL/DL2 is 11 points AF in DS2. I'm not sure how important it is, so I'd like to hear some opinioins on this matter.

P.S. I consider upgrading my MZ-30 with 28-105 and 50/1.7 to digital world.

TresOkies · Mar 7, 2006

LBear said:
I'm trying to decide between DS2 vs. DL vs. DL2

I'll preface this by saying "your mileage may vary". I have a DS. There's no clear winner, and the price difference in the DL is awfully compelling.

LBear said:
Auto ISO

I personally don't use Auto ISO, but I can see it's value, especially when just getting started. It would be good for giving your DS to someone who wants to use it as a "better point and shoot".

LBear said:
3-point wide AF (*ist DS was 11 area)

I do find that I want more focusing options, especially when shooting scenery. If you are using a focus trap, more is better. The contrary point to this is that from years of shooting manual 35mm, I focus in the center and then shift to one of thirds. It's such a habit that it's impossible to break (just like shooting left-eyed).

LBear said:
Continuous shooting buffer reduced to 5 / 3 images (JPEG / RAW)

I find this almost worth the difference in price. For shooting sports, which is easily 1/3 of my use, the bigger the better. If you aren't shooting moving objects, it is not as important. When I first got the DS, I did a lot of shots using bracket mode to get the feel of it. A bigger buffer lets you start shooting quicker after that third shot.

LBear said:
Penta-mirror viewfinder instead of Penta-prism, 0.85x magnification

I don't know what either of these are, but I gather that the penta-prism is preferred.

LBear said:
Thanks in advance.

Good luck.

--
My Photo-a-Day gallery
http://gallery.ericcloninger.com

kmccanta · Mar 7, 2006

LBear said:
2) I'm not sure what is "Penta-mirror viewfinder" and "Penta-prism"
and difference it makes. My guess this is to shoot with LCD screen
off, I don't use this mode.
3) what is "Natural-Bright-Matte II focusing screen" and what
advantages it has?

Thanks in advance.

It sounds to me, when you write "to shoot with LCD screen off" you are thinking of digicams that allow you to use that annoying little optical viewfinder instead of the LCD?

This mode is the ONLY way you will be using these DSLRs. I hope I am misunderstanding you.

Between the lens and the sensor is a mirror, when you look through the viewfinder, you will be eventually be looking into this mirror at the view through the lens. All the stuff between this mirror and the eye-hole is the pentaprism or pentamirror. The prism is a piece of glass that the image bounces around in until it comes out the eye-hole. The mirror is well a bunch of mirrors...

the prism is considered better than the mirror. But this is where it gets subjective. Yoiu would need to hold and loook through the cameras with similar lenses on to get an idea of the difference to you. The image in the DS/DS2 is going to be bigger than the DL/DL2 so It would be easier to see what you picture will look like... But the prismis a little heavier.

frank1 · Mar 7, 2006

In this thread I explained a few days ago why for me the ability to choose from one of many (11) AF points on my DS has become vital for me:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=17460799

The theoretical explanation why recomposing with pressed trigger cannot yield good results, especially when you are close to the subject and have a wide aperture, is found here:

http://visual-vacations.com/Photography/focus-recompose_sucks.htm

So if you like taking portraits and would like to have a blurred background (wide aperture) and sharp eyes, even if they are not in the center position, then you need, IMHO, the DS and its 11 AF points.

Frank
--
http://www.trekearth.com/members/frank69/photos/
http://www.treklens.com/members/frank/photos

alinla · Mar 7, 2006

I actually use Auto ISO quite a bit. In fact more than I thought I would.

I have it set to auto select between ISO 200-800.

I mainly use it when there is lots of things going on and the lighting keeps changing. When you have a time constraint on you, Auto ISO does help quite a bit.

For example, when shooting surfers in the late afternoon, Auto ISO is tremendously helpful to keep my shutter speeds up which is essential to sharp photos.

--
alinla

http://www.pbase.com/alinla
http://www.socal-dslr.com

LBear · Mar 7, 2006

In a situation like you described I focus manually.

Is this the only case when I'd need multiple AF points? It seems to me that DL2 with 5 AF points would be enough. Don't you think so.

frank1 · Mar 7, 2006

If you can focus manually in such a situation - fine, that would be equally good. In that case you would not need selectable AF points, at all, as I see it. The thing is, I have used this technique not just with our friends' baby (in the photo in the other thread, but also with my daughter a lot - she is 11 months now and doesn't keep her head still...

I tried taking photos of her with manual focus, but with my daughter not keeping her head still, I would find it impossible to focus manually fast enough.

So I guess it depends on how well / how fast you can focus manually. I personally find AF much faster and more precise when using shallow DOF.

Concerning the 5 AF points of the DL2, how useful they are depends on how far the off-center AF points are away from the center. In case they are all close to the center, they would not be very useful.

So - it boils down to personal preferences and manual focus ability. If you feel confident focusing manually or if you don't have to focus manually as fast as I have to, then the DL2 should be fine, I guess.

Frank

--
http://www.trekearth.com/members/frank69/photos/
http://www.treklens.com/members/frank/photos

Dave Lewis · Mar 7, 2006

I always use the center focusing point. I think most folks do, but those others are supposedly handy for action photography, enabling tracking moving objects. The DL view finder is smaller than the DS, but it is brighter to, though the smaller size with correspondingly smaller readouts, makes for a less satisfactory view. The primary difference is price. I think the under $500 DL price makes it a definite leader.
--
Dave Lewis

Roland Mabo · Mar 7, 2006

LBear said:
I'm trying to decide between DS2 vs. DL vs. DL2

Difference between DS2 and DL:
Auto ISO

The DS has auto ISO, but implemented in a different way. It's easier on the DL.

But the DS2 has auto ISO implemented the same way as the DL, and the DS can have it the same way too - you just download the latest version of the DS firmware.

LBear said:
3-point wide AF (*ist DS was 11 area)

With 11 AF points, it's easer to find one at the same position as the subject you want to have in focus are.

LBear said:
Wide / spot AF

With DS and DS2 you can manually select which one of the AF points you wish to use. On the DL you can only set the middle one as active or having all as active.

LBear said:
Continuous shooting buffer reduced to 5 / 3 images (JPEG / RAW)

Not a big difference.

LBear said:
Penta-mirror viewfinder instead of Penta-prism, 0.85x magnification

The viewfinder in the DS and DS2 are larger, which makes focusing and composition easier.

LBear said:
Natural-Bright-Matte II focusing screen

This compensates for the light loss a pentamirror viewfinder shows compared to a pentaprism.

LBear said:
Removal of high speed sync flash

To my knowledge, the DL supports high-speed sync fllash with external P-TTL flashes.
However, the DL does not support old TTL flashes, like the DS and DS2 does.

LBear said:
Difference between DL and DL2:
5-point wide AF (*ist DL was 3 area)

True

LBear said:
DOF preview (?)

No, the DL has DOF preview too.

More that differs between DL2 and DL.

Digital preview, you can get a preview on the LCD monitor before taking the image (this image is not saved)
Scene modes, as an addition to the auto picture modes. Can be fun...
Updated and improved image processing and JPEG algorithm.

LBear said:
1) how important to have more than 3 point AF?

It's essential for my shooting, since I don't have to first focus, lock focus and then re-compose. With 11 point I can compose and set focus at the same time.

LBear said:
2) I'm not sure what is "Penta-mirror viewfinder" and "Penta-prism"
and difference it makes. My guess this is to shoot with LCD screen
off, I don't use this mode.

The optical viewfinder has nothing to do with the LCD screen. You don't use the LCD screen when you shoot the image, you use the viewfinder. On the DL2, you can get a preview of the image on the LCD if you press a button, but it's not a live preview. It's a static image. You only get live view in the optical viewfinder.

A pentaprism is a more expensive and better construction than a pentamirror, it gives a clearer and brighter view. The pentamirror in the DL and DL2 are also smaller than the pentaprism viewfinder, this means that the image in the viewfinder is smaller. However, they are slightly brighter than the viewfinder in the DS thank's to the new Natural Bright Matte II matte screen which compensates for the light loss a pentamirror has in comparision with a pentaprism (but if the pentaprism also had this matte screen, it would be brighter...).

LBear said:
3) what is "Natural-Bright-Matte II focusing screen" and what
advantages it has?

See above.

LBear said:
Thanks in advance.

You're welcome.

Al_Jay · Mar 7, 2006

LBear

The question is: how long are you going to keep what you intend buying?

If this is your first and last for a while, with limited funds, consider investing in good glass and opt for the more reasonable DL price. I bought the DS2 in November, and when I look at the price difference between DS2 and DL, I could have added a good lens and kept within the price of the DS2. But I decided to keep to my FA50/1.4 - a good lens which could suffice for a while yet - and get the better body. Personal preference.

Personally, I find the 0.95x magnification of the pentaprism better than the 0.85x magnification of the pentamirror. The number of times my subjects have suffered amputations due to incorrect framing is painful to admit, but with a more accurate viewfinder indication, these are reduced.

Hope you find a good solution, and get to enjoy the new toy soon!
--
LJ
GMT+2

wlachan · Mar 7, 2006

LBear said:
1) how important to have more than 3 point AF?

My DS has 11 points but I use the centre AF sensor most of the time. It's faster and more accurate IMHO. AUTO often chose the wrong sensor and took me long to take the shot. Manual 11 points sound great but not any faster in practice. But for really precise focus, I always focus manually.

LBear said:
2) I'm not sure what is "Penta-mirror viewfinder" and "Penta-prism"
and difference it makes. My guess this is to shoot with LCD screen
off, I don't use this mode.

The LCD is always off. The difference is that pentaprism should be sharper and brighter, in theory at least. DS/DS2 have 0.95X viewfinder magnification while DL/DL2 is 0.85X. You won't notice the difference until you tried to do manual focus as precise as possible, especially with wide angle lenses.

LBear said:
3) what is "Natural-Bright-Matte II focusing screen" and what
advantages it has?

I think it's the Pentax way to tell their customers that the DL/DL2 has fixed focus screens, while the DS/DS2 focus screens are user interchangeable. I like interchangable screen simply because I can blow off the dust being trapped between the prism and the screen from time to time. With fixed screen, you just have to live with it. However, some cameras with fixed screens are actually user removable (like MX/ZX bodies), but I have never worked with the DL/DL2 so I am not sure.

Another consideration is buffer. Bigger buffer never hurts when you need it. But if you are interested in still life or scenery etc, it doesn't matter much. For portrait or wildlife, you may find it invaluable.
--
Alan Chan
http://www.pbase.com/wlachan/

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DS2 Vs. DL vs. DL2

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