Pro2/G7: A 'hinting' reply from Canon

gkl said:

If Sony has dropped 2/3", then Canon will have some tough
choices to make. Either drop the Pro2, or do a complete redesign
based on another sensor size.

Click to expand...

Or develop their own compact CMOS sensor.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=16019457

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

OvinceZ said:

Forget about all those worries people had about the Pro1. It is
definitely a highly recommended by me.

Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the advice. I am thinking seriously about doing it and checking the prices available now. If I am hesitant in any way, it's just because I fear a quick announcement of a Pro2. I'll naturally be eager to upgrade and if I have a Pro1, I'll have to sell it and accept a significant loss which won't be very easy to swallow if I have had it then only for few months.

gkl said:

Don't get me wrong, I think a Pro2 with a modern low-noise 2/3"
sensor and Digic II could be a great camera. However, it concerns
me that Sony hasn't released a followup to the F828 after more than
2 years. If Sony has dropped 2/3", then Canon will have some tough
choices to make. Either drop the Pro2, or do a complete redesign
based on another sensor size.

Click to expand...

Although I am not a fan of downgrading sensor sizes AT ALL, I think it's possible to use 1/1.8" without having to do a major redesign of the camera. They can keep the same lens size and I bet this will solve the little bit of vignetting that Pro1 suffered from. The 2/3" sensor is only about 1.25x longer than the 1/1.8". Considering that u can use EF lenses on FF, 1.3x and 1.6x crop DSLRs, I guess the Pro1 lens is not too large or too waste of money to use on the 1/1.8" sensor.

Canon's secretive policy makes me tired, I consider to move to Sony R1 ...
--
Canon G2

Well, you know, if you read these boards too much you end up sort of losing confidence in your own judgment. Who wants to buy a camera that isn't going to be one of the best? If you look at the comments made about the Pro1 in the last year there haven't been many negative things that stand out except the dust issue. In fact, many reports have been highly positive.

Anyway, I will post some full size images on my Smugmug site for you to have a look at. The colours are so much better than what I obtained with the G6. The sky alone is worth the price! How about that? You know, I make my own gym equipment and I can tell you my standard is much higher than almost anyone else who builds professional stuff. My honest feeling is that the design team that put the Pro1 together is superior to those who work on the plastic models. There is no need to rush out and get the next improvement because this camera takes great images. Sure, perhaps if they come out with an upgrade that has even better features then next year you can think about doing something about it. From sources I heard the news is Canon is not going to release an upgrade on the Pro1. That was from salesmen. I can tell you I paid $1200A dollars for the G6 and only $899A for the Pro1. $699US should be the most you should have to pay to get a new one if you live in the states. If you are lucky you might find one for less.

I really don't know what to say about that Pro1 review on dpreview but from using the G6 for 18 months the Pro1 is far superior as a tool to take images. I really enjoy taking photos and the zoom from wide to tele is a joy to use. Heck, I don't work for Canon. I was really disappointed that they didn't release a new model. However, the current one is so very good it would be hard to improve it. Sure, if they add a focus assist beam, add image stabilization and improve the movie mode plus add digic II, well that would be just about be all that I could want.

http://ovincez.smugmug.com/

OvinceZ said:

Well, you know, if you read these boards too much you end up sort
of losing confidence in your own judgment. Who wants to buy a
camera that isn't going to be one of the best? If you look at the
comments made about the Pro1 in the last year there haven't been
many negative things that stand out except the dust issue. In fact,
many reports have been highly positive..

Click to expand...

I am quite aware of how distinguished it is (prefer it to the G6), aware also of all its issues but willing to live with them in order to have all the advantages it has on one camera (difficult to find elsewhere). And I agree with u that if it is a nice camera today, it remains nice tomorrow even should a Pro2 be released. I may even go as far as buying Pro1 instead of Pro2 if the price difference is too much compared to the quality difference. But consider how much I would pay (for a Pro1) in that situation and how much I would pay in the current situation!!(the premium of a so-far-irreplaceable camera), this makes me feel I might be doing a bad deal if I buy now, even if I will never need to upgrade to Pro2. Am still looking however for a deal that seems reasonable for now at least. Prices here in Europe are a bit more expensive than USA, specially if u want to buy one with warranty/guarantee.

PixelMinded said:

gkl wrote:
Although I am not a fan of downgrading sensor sizes AT ALL, I think
it's possible to use 1/1.8" without having to do a major redesign
of the camera. They can keep the same lens size and I bet this will
solve the little bit of vignetting that Pro1 suffered from. The
2/3" sensor is only about 1.25x longer than the 1/1.8".

Click to expand...

And that also means the crop factor would increase making the original Pro 1 lens effectively 34-244 mm.

I would very much like the resulting reduction in vignetting since it was my primary reason for returning and giving up on the Pro 1. But I also would not find a 34mm wide angle acceptable either.

So a new lens design would still be needed.

--
Luck favors the prepared...;-)
http://photobucket.com/albums/y36/pro1/

Do you think that high-density CMOS is that close? I checked the numbers while ago, and found that a 2/3" sensor with the same pixel density as the XT or 20D would have about 1.6mp. Given that Canon didn't change the density for the 30D, I wonder how far along they are with this? The Sony R1 is 10.3 mp about the same size as the Xt sensor, so about a 25% increase in density over the XT - that would give you about 2 mp on a 2/3" sensor. So it looks like no one is close to making a 2/3" CMOS sensor with 6-8 mp resolution. In any case, with current technology it would have much higher noise than the APs-sized sensors in the Xt and R1.

ljfinger said:

gkl said:

If Sony has dropped 2/3", then Canon will have some tough
choices to make. Either drop the Pro2, or do a complete redesign
based on another sensor size.

Click to expand...

Or develop their own compact CMOS sensor.

Click to expand...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=16019457

Lee Jay said:

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

Click to expand...

gkl said:

Do you think that high-density CMOS is that close? I checked the
numbers while ago, and found that a 2/3" sensor with the same pixel
density as the XT or 20D would have about 1.6mp. Given that Canon
didn't change the density for the 30D, I wonder how far along they
are with this? The Sony R1 is 10.3 mp about the same size as the Xt
sensor, so about a 25% increase in density over the XT - that would
give you about 2 mp on a 2/3" sensor. So it looks like no one is
close to making a 2/3" CMOS sensor with 6-8 mp resolution. In any
case, with current technology it would have much higher noise than
the APs-sized sensors in the Xt and R1.

Click to expand...

I don't know if it's close or not, but it certainly would have more noise than a larger sensor. But I thought the point of a compact was that you were willing to accept that limitation in exchange for a smaller size.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

When I read many of the comments such as yours it is clear to me that most of us have bought at least one digital camera and are prepared to buy another if it suits our needs or is significantly better than what we already have. Many people have more than one camera now. The needs of all of us are not that different. Who doesn't want to carry an allrounder with him/her at all times? I have bought 5 Canon digital cameras so far and none were cheap ones! Some were gifts.

I agree that Europe and Australia have prices higher than USA. However, at the moment Canon released some Pro1 here at a very attractive price. It is less than 1/2 the original release price which makes it a very good bargain. I have to stress the metal body and build are excellent compared to the plastic models.

You will have to see what you can afford. I have no idea how many Canon have left but if these camers are selling well why should they change them?

Another thing is to notice all the various plastic entry level cameras released out there. There is a proliferation of models at various price points. So the companies are building what the public wants. They gave us a good camera and we know why the Pro1 didn't sell that well since it was released. I made up my mind to stop waiting when I saw how good it was. Go and have a play with one and see for yourself what they feel like and how good the images are. It is probably still the best allround prosumer that you can buy.

Read most of what was said here and okay, it seems Canon needs to be careful and secretive about their plans (altough I doubt, Canon would go bankrupt just because they announce one product too early or negative).

But, if they're not planning to build any more prosumer-cameras, they might as well say so. People are already looking into the competition now and will increasingly do so, the longer they have to wait. Some would go out and hunt for the last Pro1s and G6s around, some would move on to a DSLR. Sooner or later doesn't make much difference to Canon in this case.

Therefor it might seem more logical, that they have something up their sleeve, which is just not ready enough to announce. Now, if they would announce just that, without much detail, they still might get bombarded with questions but so what? Many people that are now checking out the competition would propably wait a bit longer then, to see what Canon has to offer.

And, in both cases: Canon could update the existing cameras and make them more competitive again. For instance, a G6 MkII with Digic II,an LCD with higher resolution and a black body, to make it look more professional ;o), would be a very nice, almost cary-anywhere prosumer with decent image-quality.

I think Canon is loosing customers every day now. Those who do not want to wait or go DSLR, for whatever reason. And, Prosumer-Customers buy accessoires too, altough maybe not as expensive as several additional lenses...

Turning the question around, covering an APS-size sensor with pixels the same size as those in the Pro1's 2/3" sensor would give you a 42 MP sensor. We haven't seen anything near this in APS CMOS sensors yet. Of course 42mp probably isn't necessary for most applications - my point is that nobody is building CMOS at that density yet.

Since CCDs are inherently more expensive than CMOS, it seems to be safe to conclude that CCDs offer significantly better image quality at those high densities. In short I don't think CMOS technology is ready for 2/3" sensors yet. But it's probably not too far off because CMOS is used in 4/3". OTOH, a factor of 4 decrease in pixel size is a major change.

A few of the pros and cons of these two technologies are explained at

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/researchDevelopment/technologyFeatures/cmos.shtml

If Canon is really working on a 2/3" CMOS for the Pro2, that could explain the delay. cheers, gkl

ljfinger said:

I don't know if it's close or not, but it certainly would have more
noise than a larger sensor. But I thought the point of a compact
was that you were willing to accept that limitation in exchange for
a smaller size.

Click to expand...

I've just returned from three weeks in Ecuador and I'm not keen to make a trip like that again hauling my 20D and three lenses. I had a S80 as well with me.

I came home excited to think at PMA there might be a Pro2 announced. That would be the perfect camera for me to take on most trips.

But, no announcement, and my photo store tells me the Pro1 is discontinued and they have one display model left.

They also tell me that Nikon and Canon seem to be getting out of these sorts of cameras and narrowing their line to smaller point and shoots, or SLRs.

You have suggested Canon might be working on a new sensor and that would explain the delay in announcing a Pro2. But, if this were the case, wouldn't they keep rolling out and selling the Pro1 until the 2 was ready, as they did with the 20D going to the 30D?

As I won't be switching lens, which brand of camera I buy won't make me no never mind, but if everyone is getting out of this model type I'm thinking tomorrow I should be headed to the store and get me a Pro1 while I still have a chance.

Thoughts?

Thank you, Sheldon

orpheo said:

I think Canon is loosing customers every day now. Those who do not
want to wait or go DSLR, for whatever reason. And,
Prosumer-Customers buy accessoires too, altough maybe not as
expensive as several additional lenses...

Click to expand...

You are probably right; they are losing customers every day in the advanced, non dSLR market. But there is a bigger, entry level market that they seem to be targeting. So they are adopting the stragety of Kodak who command a good share of this market. And then their most profitable segment, the dSLRs with all those expensive lens is still intact. The Canon advanced digicam market looks to be an orphan, at least for now.

--mamallama

I can't blame you for wanting to grab a Pro1 - that and the G6 have been tempting me too.

I'm interested in upgrading a G2. However, I found the Pro1 and G6 were slower that the A620, and while some useful features are missing on the A6xx series, all-round image quality is comparable to the G6. I could live with an A620 (or S80) if I had to, but I decided to wait to see if any more interesting prosumers appear over the next few months.

Canon has on occasion discontinued models without immediate replacements - probably to convert production to models they believe will sell better. So I'm holding out hope that Sony or Canon are developing sensors for a new G7/Pro1. If they don't show up by Fall, I'll have to decide whether to go A6xx or XT/17-85 IS.

It looks like Sony have just announced a new 8mp 1/1.8" chip (supposedly lower noise levels) that could be dropped into a G7 with Digic II. So Canon could only be a few weeks or months from announcing a G7. But who knows what they will do? good luck with your Pro1, gkl

Sheldon Bowles said:

But, no announcement, and my photo store tells me the Pro1 is
discontinued and they have one display model left.

They also tell me that Nikon and Canon seem to be getting out of
these sorts of cameras and narrowing their line to smaller point
and shoots, or SLRs.

You have suggested Canon might be working on a new sensor and that
would explain the delay in announcing a Pro2. But, if this were
the case, wouldn't they keep rolling out and selling the Pro1 until
the 2 was ready, as they did with the 20D going to the 30D?

As I won't be switching lens, which brand of camera I buy won't
make me no never mind, but if everyone is getting out of this model
type I'm thinking tomorrow I should be headed to the store and get
me a Pro1 while I still have a chance.

Thoughts?

Thank you, Sheldon

Click to expand...

I hope we aren't seeing a repeat of the AF zoom film days when every manufacturer dumbed down their compact camera lines. Before the 1980s, they made high-quality compacts with manual controls, aperture/shutter priority modes, exposure compensation, fast lenses, and then they all disappeared. They started banging out auto-everything junk with crappy f5.6-12 telephoto zoom lenses, no shutter or aperture info at all. Yuck.

mamallama said:

You are probably right; they are losing customers every day in the
advanced, non dSLR market. But there is a bigger, entry level
market that they seem to be targeting. So they are adopting the
stragety of Kodak who command a good share of this market. And then
their most profitable segment, the dSLRs with all those expensive
lens is still intact. The Canon advanced digicam market looks to be
an orphan, at least for now.

--mamallama

Click to expand...

Your points are well taken. Don't know if you saw the figures for 2005 for the US market, but Kodak was #1 with 7.5 million cameras sold. Canon was second at around 5 million followed by Sony and Olympus. You can be sure the bulk of Kodak's 7.5 million were lower end products.

I have no figures on the "prosumer" market, but it can't be much of Kodak's market, or of the others markets either. I'd be surprised if Canon has sold more than 100,000 prosumer cameras in the US in the last two years. Not with the DSLR's moving down into their price range.

I own a Pro 1, and back when, before I had a DSLR, I viewed the prosumer models as a substitute for the low end DSLR's that hadn't appeared yet. Today, I have a very different view and I see the "Prosumer" as a separate and important niche--at least for me. I am quite seriously considering dropping my 20D and going strictly with the Pro 1 and similar models.

The fact that all the manufacturers are dropping their prosumer lines as they get low cost DSLR's in their product mix suggests that we may see the death of the whole genre, not just the Canon models. I hope I'm wrong about that, but the signs are not good.
--
Jerry

gkl said:

I hope we aren't seeing a repeat of the AF zoom film days when
every manufacturer dumbed down their compact camera lines. Before

Click to expand...

That's what I think we're seeing as they try to reach the yet untapped "real" point-and-shooters. The major companies are not yet focused to convert the disposal 35mm buyers to digital yet, But that's not too far away. Just hope they continue to market to more serious, non-dSLR photographers also. The next 6 months will say a lot about Canon.

--mamallama

I am one of the guys wanting to upgrade to PowerShot Pro'n'. At this moment, when an announcement of a Pro II is so imminent, if this will happen, I shall wait. Surely, there will be lots of improvements in the new model: Digic II, better noise management, better low light performance, faster start-up, less lag time and so on, as these things become a standard in today's camera. Who would still like to buy a Pro I?

If no Pro II in the near future, then it would be the time to look around for something better than the Pro I. There is no hurry! Hence, my advice is to WAIT.

Canon would surely lose out if they are not quick enough!

awsin

Thanks for this gkl. After reading your thoughts, and thinking about this today, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'm going to pass on the Pro1. Fact is, I don't need it right now. And, when I do "need" one, chances are there will be as good, or better, available.

In the meantime I'm hoping for a sunny day tomorrow in Winnipeg so I can go out and see if I can find a Snowy Owl to photograph before they head north.

Again, my warm thanks, Sheldon