More megapixels means bigger pictures, not better pictures!!!

VizBiz

Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
For those who inexplicably believe that somehow using a 20D is better for birding because of the so called "reach", think again. You would be far more likely to catch that elusive albatros using a full frame camera because there is a bigger field of view to fit it in as it flies away. You can then crop that image by 1.6 and pretend you were so good that you captured the perfect composition with your 20D. And unless you want to print it 20 x 24, you'll have plenty of pixels left. And if you do there is always genuine fractals.

Don't tell me about pixel density or printing scenarios "a" and "b" of the same size. This isn't about some hypothetical reasoning, it is about humans viewing a finished image. And as for composing for the entire viewable frame of your camera, I don't necessarily think in the same ratio as the sensor. Besides, that concept is a throwback from film. Film prints start losing detail beyond the size of a contact print, so any cropping does indeed dramatically reduce resolution. With digital, on the other hand, unless you are making the maximum size print for your image pixel size, you are actually discarding resolution available for printing larger images.

The reality is that the only advantage more pixels will give you is the ability to print bigger pictures. There is no printer process that is able to show any more detail than is available to the 20D, or for that matter a 300D. The human eye is the real limiting factor. You cannot tell the difference between an 8 x 10 print made form virtually any high quality digital camera from a 300D to a Phase One back.

While I'm on a roll, stop using pre processed imagess as examples of how sharp or accurate your camera is. Digital images are meant to be processed. The difference is whether you let the camera do it or you do it yourself. There's a reason they call it "raw" and not "giant and perfect".

The only real advantage of the 1.6 sensor beyond cost is that since the lenses are designed to cover the field of a 35mm image, the weakest part of the lenses, the falloff of detail and distortion at the edges, is eliminated. Those edges are "cropped out" of the image.

I think my 20D is fabulous. I'd much rather have a FF sensor to take complete advantage of my lenses. Don't even try to tell me that I have more reach. I know I have less area.
 
Well, well put! I hate people who talk about more reach with a 1.6x sensor camera or how they use their 1D2 for landscape and their XT as a "telephoto body". That's just too funny.
 
For those who inexplicably believe that somehow using a 20D is
better for birding because of the so called "reach", think again.
You would be far more likely to catch that elusive albatros using a
full frame camera because there is a bigger field of view to fit it
in as it flies away. You can then crop that image by 1.6 and
pretend you were so good that you captured the perfect composition
with your 20D. And unless you want to print it 20 x 24, you'll
have plenty of pixels left. And if you do there is always genuine
fractals.

Don't tell me about pixel density or printing scenarios "a" and "b"
of the same size. This isn't about some hypothetical reasoning, it
is about humans viewing a finished image. And as for composing for
the entire viewable frame of your camera, I don't necessarily think
in the same ratio as the sensor. Besides, that concept is a
throwback from film. Film prints start losing detail beyond the
size of a contact print, so any cropping does indeed dramatically
reduce resolution. With digital, on the other hand, unless you are
making the maximum size print for your image pixel size, you are
actually discarding resolution available for printing larger images.

The reality is that the only advantage more pixels will give you is
the ability to print bigger pictures. There is no printer process
that is able to show any more detail than is available to the 20D,
or for that matter a 300D. The human eye is the real limiting
factor. You cannot tell the difference between an 8 x 10 print
made form virtually any high quality digital camera from a 300D to
a Phase One back.
But then why do you need the expensive full frame? Just use a wider lens on the 20D, catch that albatross, and print it - the human eye won't know the difference :)
--
Misha
 
Standing O....

i'm sick of people just not getting the message that it's a FOV multiplier NOT a magnificaiton multiplier....

this should be a sticky....

--

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so
 
FOV multiplier?

90 degree * 1.6 = 144 degrees.

erm... you're wrong - it's a 1.6 divisor!

90 degrees = 56.25 degree on a 1.6 'crop' body.
 
Misha, I applaud you

There are too many people in here that can't distinguish between real world effect, and technical detail.

OK - we all know that it's not focal length * 1.6, but we DO know it's equivalent to it! I'm not talking about DOF, just "REACH".

How do you define reach? if a printed image shows more distant detail enlarged on a print, then you have effectively gained more reach. PERIOD.

If you don't get this, then read a dictionary

Regards
 
degrees?

the sensor in a 10/20/30D yields an image with 3/5ths the field of view of a piece of film.

call it what you want, it still doesn't yield a magnification gain or increase the reach of your lenses.
FOV multiplier?

90 degree * 1.6 = 144 degrees.

erm... you're wrong - it's a 1.6 divisor!

90 degrees = 56.25 degree on a 1.6 'crop' body.
--

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so
 
[snip] The human eye is the real limiting
factor. You cannot tell the difference between an 8 x 10 print
made form virtually any high quality digital camera from a 300D to
a Phase One back.
Disagree here.... I've tried this before, holding 8x10 ink jet prints in my hand from various cameras (of different megapixel count), and the differences are real... at least there is a visible improvement up to about 11 or 12 megapixel... here is where the Foveonoids do have a valid point, the 300D only has around 1.5MP of red, and likewise for blue, pixels, and on an 8x10 print that can be noticeable.

However, past about the 1Ds size of files, at least for 8x10 size the printing technology / human eye combination becomes the limit...

Now, if the 8x10 is on a wall in my room it is quit true that at 8' distance I could not tell whether the camera was 11 megapixel or 2 !

-gt
 
You don't get more detail by cropping a picture (in some ways you could say you get less!). If you use the same lens on both a 5D and 20D, the FF image cropped to 1.6 size may include 5mp, but, in real world terms, the resulting images will be the same in all respects other than pixel count. The only impact fewer pixels has is limiting the size of the printable image, which was my original point.

The size of the image projected on the sensor for a given focal length remains the same regardless of the size of the sensor. Thus, the only way to get more so called reach is to use a longer focal length.

When you look through the cardboard tube from a toilet paper roll, do you get more reach?

By the way, what dictionary did you find this definition of "reach".
 
Alright, I am a compulsive retired engineer with too much time :(. I did a comparison between my 5D and 350xt with the 70-200 f2.8 on a tripod, focussed on a busy bird feeder about 25 feet away. Then I converted each image to 300 dpi, and then made them the same size to print and used my best sharpening strategies. Bottom line is that the image from the 1.6 multiplier camera (350xt) was sharper that the FF (5D) printed at the same size - visibly so on a bee that happened by. My wife, who is not technical at all said so, so don't argue :)
OTOH, my FF 5D images were lower noise and much more pleasing
 
You don't get more detail by cropping a picture (in some ways you
could say you get less!). If you use the same lens on both a 5D
and 20D, the FF image cropped to 1.6 size may include 5mp, but, in
real world terms, the resulting images will be the same in all
respects other than pixel count. The only impact fewer pixels has
is limiting the size of the printable image, which was my original
point.

The size of the image projected on the sensor for a given focal
length remains the same regardless of the size of the sensor.
Thus, the only way to get more so called reach is to use a longer
focal length.

When you look through the cardboard tube from a toilet paper roll,
do you get more reach?

By the way, what dictionary did you find this definition of "reach".
Have you done any REAL comparisons of a full frame and 1.6 crop cameras with the same lens, same distance? What you are presenting seems like your theory more than practical observation. I posted a link to a comparison above, 'hunter' reported his results with the XT and 5D, yet you dismiss those who gave a different view as "one of those people". If you have done an actual comparison of your own, may we see your samples?

--
Misha
 
What do you think the linked comparison shows? All it shows is that the 5D has a larger image area at the same distance. We already knew that. And since they are both the same physical size on screen, one of them (the 300xt) had to be downsized more than the other, making the comparison even less meaningful, if that is even possible.

In order to be a legitimate comparison both images must be exposed optimally for each camera (we aren't comparing cameras or sensor sensitivity, we are comparing so called reach). Next he needs to crop the 5D image to contain the EXACT SAME content as the 300XT image. Curves must then be adjusted and images sharpened to optimize each image individually. Now you have a fair comparison of two images with the exact same composition. The 5D image is now about 5mp and the 300XT about 8.

But here's the real catch. You can't even legitimately compare them at the same size on screen (see above). In order to make the images the same size for an accurate one to one comparison on the web is to print these images the same size and then scan them to the same size output to display on the screen.
 
"dont tell me about pixel density"? That phrase alone exposes your rather religious views on the matter. Pixel density can't be set aside, because it's what it's all about. Your hypotheses (I wouldn't call them theories, you know, without them having been tested, nor them being mathematically accurate and all) are needlessly complicated. They go round and round and get to nothing clear (at least as clear as pictures).

The link misha posted before is a very clear example. The pic was taken with the same lens at the same distance. Solely because of sensor pixel density you can see more detail with the 20D's picture. You can say why not just move the 5D closer. But this "reach" we are talking about is helpful in situations where you can't move significantly closer to make a difference, and you are already focal-length limited (as when you are taking bird shots with a 600mm lens). There are some other posts that get to the same conclusion that posted pictures. All of them show the same.
 
that someone posts a lengthy post about something you agree about doens't make it true... I and others have posted also very lengthy posts and sometimes we are right, sometimes we are just confused.

Just look at all the pictures posted in the other threads and the reasonings made therein. You can clearly see there is an advantage. Granted, not because of sensor size, but pixel density. It is not 1.6X, but in the particular case of the 5D/20D is about 1.25X. THAT is the misunderstanding. You are right that it's not magnification or focal length increase. But when you are working digitally, you can't take pixels out of the loop.
the sensor in a 10/20/30D yields an image with 3/5ths the field of
view of a piece of film.

call it what you want, it still doesn't yield a magnification gain
or increase the reach of your lenses.
FOV multiplier?

90 degree * 1.6 = 144 degrees.

erm... you're wrong - it's a 1.6 divisor!

90 degrees = 56.25 degree on a 1.6 'crop' body.
--
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn
from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their
apparent disinclination to do so
 
20D 100% crop:



5D 100% crop, shot from the same position as the 20D, same lens:



5D image upsampled to match FOV of 20D:(20D image immediately below)



The 20D clearly shows more detail
 
I DO own a 5D, and I love it.

However, you are very wrong to think that cropping a 5D image is the same as a 20D image.

If you crop a FF sensor of the 5D down to the size of a 20D, you will have about 5.3MP worth of pixels.

OTOH, the quality / size of those MP is better than those of the 20D. So the trade off is more detail on the 20D within the cropped area, less DR tonality.

The real winner here would be a FF sensor at about 22MP.

AND THAT IS CANON'S GAMEPLAN FOR THE NEXT 2 GENERATIONS OF FF TECHNOLOGY. 16MP THEN 22MP.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top