FZ30 Noise...

Hello,

I'm very concerned with the high noise levels in my pictures. Daylight pictures are acceptable but low light pictures are terrible.

I'm not a pro but I expected get better pictures out of this camera. It seems that my old Canon S20 takes better photograhps in low light situations. Is anyone else having this problem and how are you dealing with it...other that Noise Ninja!

I'm considering returning it and picking up the Olympus E-500. Maybe I should have done that in the first place.

Thanks for the feedback

M

It would be very helpful to see the problems you are talking about, then the very helpful and smart folks on this forum could probably offer some solutions for you.

The photos that have been posted here have been excellent.

So consider posting some of your photos that you have problems with and see what the great folks here can come up with.

And welcome to the forum!
Ann in NC

You win the set of steak knives - the 1 millionth poster re noise. As has been said many times, the panasonics are excellent in good light - not so good in low light and noise becomes an issue at higher iso. Some people a) don't worry about it too much b) use a different camera in low light (the fuji F10 among others gets good reports) or c) deny it.

For daylight shooting the beautiful lens and OIS will give you wonderful results.

--
Thommo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jthommo101/

jthommo said:

You win the set of steak knives - the 1 millionth poster re noise.
As has been said many times, the panasonics are excellent in good
light - not so good in low light and noise becomes an issue at
higher iso. Some people a) don't worry about it too much b) use a
different camera in low light (the fuji F10 among others gets good
reports) or c) deny it.

For daylight shooting the beautiful lens and OIS will give you
wonderful results.

--
Thommo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jthommo101/

Click to expand...

--
------------------------------------------------------------
Gene
From Western PA.

Panasonic FZ-10 and FZ 20 and FZ30
B300
T Con 17 --two Tcon 14Bs -- Raynox 2020 pro -- DCR 6600

http://imageevent.com/grc6



Just trying to learn and it's slow going!

This is starting to become a headache... people complain about the noise but they don't realize that each camera is subject to the same laws of physics and only larger pixel cells will every properly deal with the noise issue otherwise you are stuck with the camera companies noise reduction routines which very... when you get storng noise reduction you loose lots of detail weak noise reduction retains a lot of detail... I am a computer programmer... i decided to make my own noise reduction software and simulate ISO400 and run it through my own processing then i took a shot at ISO400 and compared the 2 I was totally shocked at the result... yes my picture had less noise but it seriously mushed the fine details and i'd rather live with noise and have detail then have no noise and a mushy picture... i may keep trying to write a better noise reduction routine but thats all it is... right now any camera that has the 2.2 micron pixel cell as in the case of the FZ30 will have the same amount of base noise the only difference is in how the in camera noise reduction deals with it...

the S20 is too old to properly be compared to the FZ30... the pixel cells are 2.5x larder then the FZ30's pixel cells but the technology wasn't as good back then... you should expect to see better quality pictures with the S20 in terms of noise because the pixels cells took in more photons but then you have to compare 3mp with 8mp... next time before you complain resize the 8mp image to 3mp and then compare the noise levels they should be similar or better.

--
Mike from Canada



http://www.airliners.net/search/[email protected]&sort_order=views&distinct_entry=true

Hey Mike from Canada...this is Martin from Canada...from one computer programmer to another...don't be so condescending when replying to people's opinions.

Do you really think I compared 8mp photographs to 3mp? Come-on man. Get real! I dropped the res. to 1mp ez and I still saw a significant difference. Don't give me this physics bull 'cause I understand it just as well as you do. Computer science will do that.

Next time, come-up with a solution to the problem and don't talk about your little noise reducing program.

M

I have these 3 crops I downloaded from imaging-resouces...I am not sure thats legal........But these crops are all ISO200 and are from a FZ30(the Noise Machine) and the S80 canon an 8mp camera toted to be very low noise.
and a Canon S2 IS which no one complains of the noise...what do you think?







--
------------------------------------------------------------
Gene
From Western PA.

Panasonic FZ-10 and FZ 20 and FZ30
B300
T Con 17 --two Tcon 14Bs -- Raynox 2020 pro -- DCR 6600

http://imageevent.com/grc6



Just trying to learn and it's slow going!

The e500 will have better lowlight performance. You can decide what is your highest priority. Price and convenience may not outweight your need for cleaner high ISO photos without pp. Get the camera that works for the way you shoot. Good luck.

mchev5 said:

Hello,

I'm very concerned with the high noise levels in my pictures.
Daylight pictures are acceptable but low light pictures are
terrible.

I'm not a pro but I expected get better pictures out of this
camera. It seems that my old Canon S20 takes better photograhps in
low light situations. Is anyone else having this problem and how
are you dealing with it...other that Noise Ninja!

I'm considering returning it and picking up the Olympus E-500.
Maybe I should have done that in the first place.

Thanks for the feedback

M

Click to expand...

The camera is not very good in low light situations. I do not use ISO above 100 and in low light situations I use a flash. If most of your shooting is going to be low light and ISO 200+ I don't think you have the right camera. Noise reduction programs can help but they may reduce the sharpness of your images.

On the other hand if you want to take great pictures with adequate light you have a great camera. If low light is your thing then you probably need as DSLR - only you can decide.

--
Neil

1mp EZ?

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't that just using the center of the sensor? what i am trying to say is that its not downsizing 8mp of data into 3mp of data... its the equivelent to cropping 1 mp out of an 8mp image and therefor it will have the same noise ratio as the 8mp image whereas if you were to take an 8mp image (3264x2448) and resize it to 3mp (2048x1536) you should see similar results to your old S20...

You want a solution? buy a DSLR if its a very serious issue that you can't ever live with the noise otherwise Neat Image or Noise Ninja are helpful... there are also a few steps you can take to help minimize the noise from the camera or make it more edit friendly by noise reduction programs...

1. don't underexpose the image
2. set the saturation, contrast and sharpness to low

3. some say setting the NR to low will make it more easily removable by a 3rd party program

4. if you can overexpose the image slightly not far enough for highlight clipping to occur you may see less noise
5. manual WB usually helps

6. (this is my opinion) don't trust the camera to choose the best settings all the time... the photographer is smarter then the programming and can therefore get better results

7. you might want to consider getting used to the flash or an external flash that allows you to bounce light to make it look more natural

8. every camera has a base ISO anything high is just the camera underexposing the image and then through a rather smart algorithm multiplying the pixel RGB values to bring the image up to proper exposure... if the camera requires 200 photons at ISO80 to achieve proper exposure then ISO400 is the camera only using the first 40 photons and multiplying them by 5... the result is 5x faster shutter speed but also 5x more variation in the image

9. use the highest jpeg settings so that you get the fewest jpeg artifiacts in the image

10. the bayer pattern adds to the problem by having adjacents pixels share RG or BG values and therefore share noise and at times unwanted values

your old camera had 3mp in a 1/1.8 sensor your new one has 8mp in a 1/1.8 sensor that is a serious difference the old sensor could collect more photons and therefore could have less deviation (noise) in the image in low light... you have gone from a 3.5 micron pixel to a 2.2 micron pixel the added noise is enevitable but likely better then it could be due to newer NR routines in the camera

now I'm sorry I came across as condecending its just that if you were to look at the history of this forum you'll see that you aren't the first to complain about the noise... not by a long shot... sometimes regular forum members get a little frustrated by people complaining about the noise without understanding the facts and physics... i usually leave complianing threads alone these days I forgot to do that on this one... as much as i am a computer programmer i am also an inventor/brainstormer and on my spare time have been seriously considering alternatives to making the noise issues better... i have some ideas but they may cost too much to be properly implemented into consumer digital cameras...

for the time being you have a few choices

• Use your old camera for low light shots
• Get a DSLR for low light shots (plus other shots)
• The Fuji F10 and F11 are the best compact digital cameras for low light shots right now but thats part due to larger pixel cells and better NR
• you could try the Fuji S9000 but expect to lose more detail due to much higher in camera NR
• Neat image and noise ninja work well
• live with the noise
• invest in an external flash
• wait for a breakthrough in technology... 2 years to 10 years from now

I hope i could help you either use the camera better or choose an alternative
--
Mike from Canada



http://www.airliners.net/search/[email protected]&sort_order=views&distinct_entry=true

the noise looks rather similar to me in all 3 crops ... slight variation in composition of the noise (colour and splotchyness) but about the same amount of noise... i'm guessing that is because they all have a 2.2 micron pixel cell and they variation is due to the in camera NR
--
Mike from Canada



http://www.airliners.net/search/[email protected]&sort_order=views&distinct_entry=true

I thought so too Bryan, except the S2 is the worst.

I kept feeling I was doing something unfair to the S2 photo ,but it was the same for all 3 photos.I took the same amount of pixels out of the same area of the photo.

I know its not scientific but I use their comparometer a lot and I feel the FZ30 or 5 is better than any superzoom and comparable to the cameras that no one ever mentions noise in the same phrase.

And besides that, I like the FZ30....I am looking at DSLRs but not to replace the FZ30 but to compliment it.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Gene
From Western PA.

Panasonic FZ-10 and FZ 20 and FZ30
B300
T Con 17 --two Tcon 14Bs -- Raynox 2020 pro -- DCR 6600

http://imageevent.com/grc6



Just trying to learn and it's slow going!

genece said:

And besides that, I like the FZ30....I am looking at DSLRs but not
to replace the FZ30 but to compliment it.

Click to expand...

Gene - I went down that path recently; after much research and playing in camera shops I ended up with with the (unfashionable) Pentax with the silly name. I like it a lot.

genece said:

--
------------------------------------------------------------
Gene
From Western PA.

Panasonic FZ-10 and FZ 20 and FZ30
B300
T Con 17 --two Tcon 14Bs -- Raynox 2020 pro -- DCR 6600

http://imageevent.com/grc6



Just trying to learn and it's slow going!

Click to expand...

--
Thommo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jthommo101/

You obviously suffer either from a lack of attention, or ignorance of the massive number of messages that have been previously posted on this forum concerning this very subject.

Most of us are supremely happy with our FZ30's, so if you are not, I recommend returning it and going with something else that may or may not be better for your own wants and needs.

--
Have a safe and happy 2006!

Bob the Printer

should always return them and get whatever alternatives they prefer.

Otherwise it bugs them and bugs them...

And they clog these forums for the rest of us.

****************

Yes, the FZ30 is noisy at high ISO. I prefer not to use RAW (which fixes a lot of it) because I often use bursts. However I find Noise Ninja cleans up even ISO 400 nicely. I apply NN and then fade same visually until I am happy with the balance between noise and detail. Much of the noise is because of the marvellous lens and the detail it delivers.

There is simply some tradeoff in using a long-zoom digicam - after all if the long-zoom digicams were actually the equal of the dslrs - the dslr would cease to exist, since the lzd is much lighter and cheaper.

Again, IMHO you should return it if you can since you are not happy with it. This is similar to the ancient military maxium "never reinforce failure".

Good luck with whatever you choose.

--
Best wishes, rennie12
'There is only now'

--
Best wishes, rennie12
'There is only now'

there's so much more foliage probably due to completely different seasons...

The brick is probably the only quality color comparison that can be made from that group of pics since it isn't effected by the season of the year... ;-}
--

'Happy Shootin'



[email protected] http://www.pbase.com/rrawzz ****
EffZeeThreeZero/CeeEightZeroEightZeroDoubleUZee
CeeTwoOneZeroZeroUZee/EOneHuderedAreEss

rennie12 said:

should always return them and get whatever alternatives they prefer.

Otherwise it bugs them and bugs them...

And they clog these forums for the rest of us.

****************

Yes, the FZ30 is noisy at high ISO.

Click to expand...

And low ISO dont forget that....

I prefer not to use RAW (which

rennie12 said:

fixes a lot of it) because I often use bursts. However I find
Noise Ninja cleans up even ISO 400 nicely. I apply NN and then
fade same visually until I am happy with the balance between noise
and detail. Much of the noise is because of the marvellous lens
and the detail it delivers.

There is simply some tradeoff in using a long-zoom digicam - after
all if the long-zoom digicams were actually the equal of the dslrs

• the dslr would cease to exist, since the lzd is much lighter and

cheaper.

Click to expand...

agree

rennie12 said:

Again, IMHO you should return it if you can since you are not happy
with it. This is similar to the ancient military maxium "never
reinforce failure".

Good luck with whatever you choose.

--
Best wishes, rennie12
'There is only now'

Click to expand...

--

If I have uploaded an image don't hesitate to de-noise it, correct the WB, clone out dust and dead pixels, saturation, USM, resize, print and send me the result..
Also advice and criticise.
Try this Forum FZ30 only http://www.fz30focus.com join up..

Kind Rgds

Heath

FZ30 is so addictive.
I'm heading for an early divorce.
The wife: 'either it goes or I do!' ----------- The hubby:'TAXI'!!
(The Amateur amateur in training)
FZ30
S7000(in sons hands now)
Tcon17
Raynox DCR 150 & DCR 250
Nikon SB24+omnibounce
Tripod
CamCane
I'm an Atheist

No way out, I have to clean images with neatimage for those low light.
luckily, most are color noise (red/blue/green patches) and it clean out
perfectly, 8x10 prints are good. same old fz* tricks.

alien

mchev5 said:

Hello,

I'm very concerned with the high noise levels in my pictures.
Daylight pictures are acceptable but low light pictures are
terrible.

I'm not a pro but I expected get better pictures out of this
camera. It seems that my old Canon S20 takes better photograhps in
low light situations. Is anyone else having this problem and how
are you dealing with it...other that Noise Ninja!

I'm considering returning it and picking up the Olympus E-500.
Maybe I should have done that in the first place.

Thanks for the feedback

M

Click to expand...

mchev5 said:

Hello,

I'm very concerned with the high noise levels in my pictures.
Daylight pictures are acceptable but low light pictures are
terrible.

I'm not a pro but I expected get better pictures out of this
camera. It seems that my old Canon S20 takes better photograhps in
low light situations. Is anyone else having this problem and how
are you dealing with it...other that Noise Ninja!

I'm considering returning it and picking up the Olympus E-500.
Maybe I should have done that in the first place.

Click to expand...

I will say that if you are looking for low light shooting, dont' get the FZ30. This is simply something Panasonic needs to work on, and you will see a huge amount of denial for this particular need of those who love their Fluzis. I like my FZ20 a lot but I know it's a real pain to do something like Street Night life because of the noise.

Of course, if you are doing to resize down the photo big time and post VGA size "evidence" then it may look decent. I took my FZ20 for a spin once and it was not a good thing to use for that.

If you don't need lowlight and you like the idea of a one camera lens then I would say try it out before returning, otherwise pass. I don't know what is your budget but if you go e-500 and you really need super low light, Sigma is now coming up with an F1.4 4/3rds lens. And there's always the Oly 50mm (100m equiv) 2.0 which is not bad at all.

Overall though the e-500 will certainly perform better overall, though depending on your needs I would buy it body only and then buy the 14-54mm lens (2.8-3.5 F).

Another thing you may want to try with the FZ30 is shooting in black and white- that helps quite a bit though I wasn't still pleased with the results of my FZ20.

mchev5 said:

Thanks for the feedback

M

Click to expand...

--
Raist3d
e-volt 300, and some Zuiko lenses. Fuji F710, Panasonic FZ20
Tools/Gui Programmer - vid games industry