Epson investigating magenta problem

Erichatch · Nov 1, 2001

I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics. He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America. While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details, including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned. Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems (I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think the issue is going to remain under the rug.
--Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Andrei · Nov 1, 2001

Good news. I wonder how much time it'll take to resolve this problem.

erichocinc said:
I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Terry Thorn · Nov 2, 2001

erichocinc said:
I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Hi Eric. Check out this link, check the date of the post, and tell me we're not getting the runaround. I'll bet Sylvia claimed to know nothing of this problem.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=1562907&query=sylvia
BTW... she never called back as she promised.

Erichatch · Nov 2, 2001

Thanks, Terry. That's very interesting. I will of course be following up very actively. My hope is that there's now enough top-driven energy to surface the problem and insure cross-functional communication about it within Epson. And Ms. Lynch did not claim never to have heard of this problem, but she didn't act as though she'd heard all about it, either. (Actually, it would have been ill-advised, in the litigous age, for her to have admitted ANY problem).

I hope readers of this forum will be the squeakiest wheels they can be. It is absurd to have to find work-arounds, etc because the printers don't perform consistently, reliably, and accurately.

Terry Thorn said:
erichocinc said:

I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to

Click to expand...

z

Member said:
Member said:

a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

Click to expand...

Member said:
Member said:

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Click to expand...

Hi Eric. Check out this link, check the date of the post, and tell
me we're not getting the runaround. I'll bet Sylvia claimed to know
nothing of this problem.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=1562907&query=sylvia
BTW... she never called back as she promised.

Terry Thorn · Nov 2, 2001

erichocinc said:
Thanks, Terry. That's very interesting. I will of course be
following up very actively. My hope is that there's now enough
top-driven energy to surface the problem and insure
cross-functional communication about it within Epson. And Ms.
Lynch did not claim never to have heard of this problem, but she
didn't act as though she'd heard all about it, either. (Actually,
it would have been ill-advised, in the litigous age, for her to
have admitted ANY problem).

I hope readers of this forum will be the squeakiest wheels they can
be. It is absurd to have to find work-arounds, etc because the
printers don't perform consistently, reliably, and accurately.

I've been doing my part to make the problem known to Epson. Unfortunately, some Epson fanatics/apologists here are trying to convince people that the problem doesn't really exist or are offering workarounds IF you use PhotoShop. I'm with you... you shouldn't HAVE to do this. It wasn't necessary BEFORE they changed their ink supplier.

NKH · Nov 2, 2001

thanks, eric. for my part, i submitted an online request for help describing the problem only to get a canned response that my nozzles are clogged...ugh. their next offer is to replace it with a refurb

erichocinc said:
I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Jay Jervey · Nov 2, 2001

Hey you guys. I just got a 785EPX and have noticed the magenta preference you are referring too. It is pretty mild with Epson Premium Glossy Photo paper but is pretty bad with other papers I've tried (Canon, Kodak). Is this consistent with your observations? Also, since "Natural Color" boosts Blue/Green (i.e. cyan), shouldn't this setting offset the magenta preference? Anyway, I switched from a Canon 8200 when I saw how bright Epson 785 prints were. My Canon prints suddenly semed very dull. I suspect some of this is brightness is due to this slight magenta bias. It's possible Epson did this on purpose .

binkybarnes said:
erichocinc said:

I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn · Nov 3, 2001

Jay Jervey said:
Hey you guys. I just got a 785EPX and have noticed the magenta
preference you are referring too. It is pretty mild with Epson
Premium Glossy Photo paper but is pretty bad with other papers I've
tried (Canon, Kodak). Is this consistent with your observations?
Also, since "Natural Color" boosts Blue/Green (i.e. cyan),
shouldn't this setting offset the magenta preference? Anyway, I
switched from a Canon 8200 when I saw how bright Epson 785 prints
were. My Canon prints suddenly semed very dull. I suspect some of
this is brightness is due to this slight magenta bias. It's
possible Epson did this on purpose .

I don't think Epson made the prints more red or magenta on purpose but they did set the driver to increase the contrast in order to make the prints appear brighter. Canon didn't do that with the 8200 but you can increase the contrast manually and then save the set up. The Canon 8200 did have the more accurate color rendition.

Terry Thorn · Nov 6, 2001

erichocinc said:
I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Well Eric, this is Tuesday and we haven't heard anything from you. Has Epson responded to you as they said they would? I heard the same malarky from Sylvia but that's been over a month ago. I was hoping you'd have better luck with them.

GeneL · Nov 6, 2001

I also have tried to deal with Epson on the magenta problem. I have the Epson 785exp and use it off line to print 4x6 on the Epson paper. The prints are not usable because of the magenta. Epson turned a blind eye to me on it. I don't know what to do about it.

GeneL

Terry Thorn said:
erichocinc said:

I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Click to expand...

Well Eric, this is Tuesday and we haven't heard anything from you.
Has Epson responded to you as they said they would? I heard the
same malarky from Sylvia but that's been over a month ago. I was
hoping you'd have better luck with them.

Rob Patterson · Nov 6, 2001

GeneL said:
I also have tried to deal with Epson on the magenta problem. I have
the Epson 785exp and use it off line to print 4x6 on the Epson
paper. The prints are not usable because of the magenta. Epson
turned a blind eye to me on it. I don't know what to do about it.

My personal experience with Epson over the years has been very poor. Lot of talk but no action. When they do talk, their message comes straight out of the users manual. I guess they figure we can't read.

I've resolved to seek out another printer. I've played all the games and wasted enough of my time on problems with my 1280. Too many untruths being feed to buyers who bought in good faith. The money's in their pockets. That's as far as Epson response goes.

Erichatch · Nov 6, 2001

I have heard from several people at Epson. They are taking the line that this is an individual problem, unique to my configuratin of computer/software/ink/paper/operating system.... but they have assigned a person to work through the possibilities. I am letting this run its course before climbing back up the ladder... rest assured, though, that I will do so. I keep telling folks that Epson needs to hear from ALL OF US if they are to realize there's a genuine issue instead of "special cause" variation... so sing out.

More on this tomorrow....

Member said:
Well Eric, this is Tuesday and we haven't heard anything from you.
Has Epson responded to you as they said they would? I heard the
same malarky from Sylvia but that's been over a month ago. I was
hoping you'd have better luck with them.

NKH · Nov 6, 2001

if you can fish out an snail-mail address from them with the name of someone who cares, i'd be more than happy to send them ALL of my unusable prints ruined by the excessive magenta cast to show them what i'm/we're talking about.

i'd actually be happy to just buy a new printer except that i was stupid and ordered ton of genuine epson color and black ink cartridges at the same time. besides, my wife would KILL me over another purchase!

Terry Thorn · Nov 6, 2001

binkybarnes said:
if you can fish out an snail-mail address from them with the name
of someone who cares, i'd be more than happy to send them ALL of my
unusable prints ruined by the excessive magenta cast to show them
what i'm/we're talking about.

i'd actually be happy to just buy a new printer except that i was
stupid and ordered ton of genuine epson color and black ink
cartridges at the same time. besides, my wife would KILL me over
another purchase!

I've already sent sample photos to them. They claim they never got them and never heard from me about any problems yet she (Sylvia Lynch) recognized the tech support person's name that I said I spoke to. It's sad that they choose this way to deal with the problem. I know for a fact that it's the ink because I was printing great pictures and in the middle of printing a batch of the SAME picture, I had to change ink cartridges. The next print was more magenta/red than the previous ones. I went through cleaning cycles and checked all my settings and nothing fixed the problem. I then changed to another ink cartridge which had a similar lot number to the one with which I was getting great photos with and I was once again printing great photos. Problem solved. I explained this to Epson very plainly and sent them "before and after" photos for illustration. I guess they'd rather blame me and hope others wouldn't see the problem. I was really hoping that I just got a bad cartridge but after seeing others complaining of the same problem, my hopes were dashed. I can and do work around the problem but I personally know some people who can't and I'm sure there's a lot more of them out there.

Erichatch · Nov 8, 2001

Epson has worked hard to solve the magenta problem on my 785 EPX printer. Wow! Sylvia Lynch followed through, and the VERY senior tech rep who duplicated the problem and then solved it (John Quinones) was masterful.... knew the software cold, didn't make me feel like a jerk, and very concisely got through the problem. Epson has devoted substantial time and resources to making this customer happy, and they deserve all the praise in the world for their efforts. Bravo, Epson.

A further word about MIS inks: they have been contributing to the problem. I know we've all been saying "it's Epson's ink" and maybe part of it is, but non-Epson inks can apparently interact with Epson inks and cause nasty nozzle clogging, beyond the printer's ability to clear up.

Here is the scoop. I have a Mac and use Photoshop Elements. If you're on a PC using Photoshop, your mileage may vary slightly.

The basic idea is to uncouple Photoshop (or Elements) from the printing process and let the printer do the conversion work involved. Here's what Epson suggested for my situation:

1. If you can calibrate your monitor, do so. You want a gamma of 1.8 an a color temperature of 6500.

2. In the absence of a built-in monitor profile, open the Color sync control panel and set the following: input= generic RGB, display = Adobe RGB (1998), output = generic CMYK profile, proofer = generic RGB profile. DO NOT set the proofer (the actual printer) to CMYK; even though the Epson has 6 inks, and one of them is black, it is an RGB machine, not a CMYK printer.

If you do not see anything but Adobe in the "input" field, you can open the Monitors control panel, select "Generic RGB Profile" from there, which forces it to appear in the Colorsync control panel.

3. If you have Photoshop, select the checkbox that turns off Photoshop color management. Then proceed as for PS Elements:

In PS Elements, select Print, then select
-- Your actual paper type, whatever it is (Photo Glossy, or whatever)
-- Your paper size
-- Automatic
-- Epson Natural color is checked
-- Printspace = printer Color Management

Now, you can check your work by selecting the magnifying glass icon immediately to the left of the "print" button. The "print button" now becomes "preview." According to the expert who worked with me, you CAN trust the preview.

What we have actually done is removed the extra profiles, etc, and let the printer do the conversion from RGB to 4 or 6 inks. What was going wrong was that BOTH Adobe AND the printer were doing conversions, wtih the resulting "red shift".

------
I will cross-post this as a new thread, so others will see it.

Terry Thorn · Nov 8, 2001

erichocinc said:
Epson has worked hard to solve the magenta problem on my 785 EPX
printer. Wow! Sylvia Lynch followed through, and the VERY senior
tech rep who duplicated the problem and then solved it (John
Quinones) was masterful.... knew the software cold, didn't make me
feel like a jerk, and very concisely got through the problem.
Epson has devoted substantial time and resources to making this
customer happy, and they deserve all the praise in the world for
their efforts. Bravo, Epson.

A further word about MIS inks: they have been contributing to the
problem. I know we've all been saying "it's Epson's ink" and maybe
part of it is, but non-Epson inks can apparently interact with
Epson inks and cause nasty nozzle clogging, beyond the printer's
ability to clear up.

Here is the scoop. I have a Mac and use Photoshop Elements. If
you're on a PC using Photoshop, your mileage may vary slightly.

The basic idea is to uncouple Photoshop (or Elements) from the
printing process and let the printer do the conversion work
involved. Here's what Epson suggested for my situation:

1. If you can calibrate your monitor, do so. You want a gamma of
1.8 an a color temperature of 6500.

2. In the absence of a built-in monitor profile, open the Color
sync control panel and set the following: input= generic RGB,
display = Adobe RGB (1998), output = generic CMYK profile, proofer
= generic RGB profile. DO NOT set the proofer (the actual printer)
to CMYK; even though the Epson has 6 inks, and one of them is
black, it is an RGB machine, not a CMYK printer.

If you do not see anything but Adobe in the "input" field, you can
open the Monitors control panel, select "Generic RGB Profile" from
there, which forces it to appear in the Colorsync control panel.

3. If you have Photoshop, select the checkbox that turns off
Photoshop color management. Then proceed as for PS Elements:

In PS Elements, select Print, then select
-- Your actual paper type, whatever it is (Photo Glossy, or whatever)
-- Your paper size
-- Automatic
-- Epson Natural color is checked
-- Printspace = printer Color Management

Now, you can check your work by selecting the magnifying glass icon
immediately to the left of the "print" button. The "print button"
now becomes "preview." According to the expert who worked with me,
you CAN trust the preview.

What we have actually done is removed the extra profiles, etc, and
let the printer do the conversion from RGB to 4 or 6 inks. What
was going wrong was that BOTH Adobe AND the printer were doing
conversions, wtih the resulting "red shift".

------
I will cross-post this as a new thread, so others will see it.

Epson came through FOR YOU... not the rest of us who DON'T have those programs. The problem you've experienced is an old one that has been documented here. The problem of the ink remains!

Carlos C. · Nov 8, 2001

I have an epson 2000p and i haven't seen that problem.. Why?

erichocinc said:
I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Erichatch · Nov 8, 2001

You may not have those programs. The underlying premise is that if you can uncouple the program you are using from the Epson built-in driver/profile, that may help. Whether or not you are still having a problem (and I won't know if I actually do until tomorrow), Epson provided excellent customer service in this case and should be acknowledged for their efforts.

Member said:
Epson came through FOR YOU... not the rest of us who DON'T have
those programs. The problem you've experienced is an old one that
has been documented here. The problem of the ink remains!

David Bookbinder · Nov 8, 2001

The 2000p does not use the dye-based inks that the Epson 780, 785, 890, and 1280 use. It uses pigments. Presumably they have not switched sources for their pigmented inks, hence no problems for the 2000p.

David

Carlos said:
erichocinc said:

I spoke today with Akihiko Sato, President of Epson Electronics.
He said he would have somebody get back to me from Epson America.
While waiting for that to happen, I called Epson America and
escalated the issue from service rep to customer service manager to
a senior technical specialist. I gave him all the details,
including the URL of this forum. A case number was assigned.
Subsequently, I received a call from a clearly competent and
decisive person named Sylvia Lynch who provided not ony further
assurances that this problem would be investigated, but her phone
number as well.

I have been told to expect a response on Monday.

On Epson's behalf, the people I spoke to were responsive and were
willing to hear that this is broader than one individual's problems
(I had just done a printer swap-out, to no avail).

So now we'll see what happens... but at this point, I don't think
the issue is going to remain under the rug.

--
Eric
F707 on its way (?)

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn · Nov 9, 2001

erichocinc said:
You may not have those programs. The underlying premise is that if
you can uncouple the program you are using from the Epson built-in
driver/profile, that may help. Whether or not you are still
having a problem (and I won't know if I actually do until
tomorrow), Epson provided excellent customer service in this case
and should be acknowledged for their efforts.

But I see from another thread that you hadn't even tried their advice out to see if it actually worked before you declared that they fixed the problem. What's up with that???

Epson investigating magenta problem

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