Convert AdobeRGB to sRGB in Nikon Capture?

Is there a way to convert a D2X RAW image from AdobeRGB to sRGB within Nikon Capture 4.4.0?
On my D2X, I have color space set to AdobeRGB, and color mode set to II.

I can change Color Mode in Nikon Capture in the Advanced RAW panel, but there doesn't seem to be a way to reassign/convert the Color Space.

The annoying thing is that with EXIF 2.21 the actual color space information (basically the ICC profile) is not stored in the image, but a reference to the used color space is added in the EXIF data. Most older software (and some newer... e.g. ACDSee 8 Pro) does not correctly read the color space from the EXIF data but simply assumes that the image is sRGB if it can't find an embedded color space.

So as part of my workflow I want to convert from AdobeRGB NEF to sRGB JPEG. Of course I can go AdobeRGB NEF -> AdobeRGB TIFF via Capture -> sRGB JPEG via Photoshop CS2, but that's not exactly a fast route...

Any insight appreciated!

Thx,
Christophe.

--
You can't have everything - where would you put it?

Equipment in profile.

When you save or batch you have the option of embedding your profile. If you want an sRGB image, leave that box unchecked.

Christophe Heyman said:

So as part of my workflow I want to convert from AdobeRGB NEF to
sRGB JPEG. Of course I can go AdobeRGB NEF -> AdobeRGB TIFF via
Capture -> sRGB JPEG via Photoshop CS2, but that's not exactly a
fast route...

Click to expand...

Hi Christophe,

If you use Save As, there's a check box at the bottom/left that says "embed ICC profile Nikon AdobeRGB". If you uncheck that, it should save it as sRGB, AFAIK.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

Nope - you can either choose to embed an ICC profile or not embed one:

If you choose not to embed a profile, that's exactly what happens. The image does not suddenly/magically become sRGB. It stays what it was (as defined in the EXIF tag).

If you choose to embed a profile, you cannot select which profile. The profile that is shown is either the one from the image or the one you override to (in the Tools -> Options -> Color Management settings). Since you should be setting the default profile on the Color Management tab to the one you've set in the camera, there's really not a choice there. The only confusion here is whether a color space conversion (good) or reassignment (bad) happens when you check the option for "Use this instead of an embedded profile when opening files".

Thx,
Christophe.
--
You can't have everything - where would you put it?

Equipment in profile.

Christophe Heyman said:

Nope - you can either choose to embed an ICC profile or not embed one:

If you choose not to embed a profile, that's exactly what happens.
The image does not suddenly/magically become sRGB. It stays what it
was (as defined in the EXIF tag).

Click to expand...

That's the way it works for me, Christophe. I shoot in aRGB. If I choose Save As a JPG and remove the checkmark from the Embed profile, the resulting JPG is in sRGB.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

Kerry Pierce said:

Christophe Heyman said:

So as part of my workflow I want to convert from AdobeRGB NEF to
sRGB JPEG. Of course I can go AdobeRGB NEF -> AdobeRGB TIFF via
Capture -> sRGB JPEG via Photoshop CS2, but that's not exactly a
fast route...

Click to expand...

Hi Christophe,

If you use Save As, there's a check box at the bottom/left that
says "embed ICC profile Nikon AdobeRGB". If you uncheck that, it
should save it as sRGB, AFAIK.

Click to expand...

That is incorrect, and you can prove it very easily. Just take a picture in Mode II, which embeds the AdobeRGB profile by default (or use any other color profile you want in the "Tools ~ Options~ Color Management" dialog). Process in Nikon Capture and save as JPEG with the "embed profile" box unchecked. Look at the resulting JPEG in any editor - the colors are quite clearly desaturated and skewed to green: classic symptoms of an AdobeRGB photo "assumed" to be sRGB.

This checkbox does exactly what it says - does not embed the correct color profile. Not embedding a color profile is not the same thing as converting to another color profile

--
John Walker
http://jhwalker.smugmug.com/
Want a Sumgmug account? Use referral code 'iA22TmSWiZzr'!

Choosing not to embed a profile will cause your image to display differently, but it does not convert the colorspace. What you've described is the difference between an "Assign To..." and a "Convert To..." in Photoshop. Very different things, very different results.

Chris

Kerry Pierce said:

Christophe Heyman said:

Nope - you can either choose to embed an ICC profile or not embed one:

If you choose not to embed a profile, that's exactly what happens.
The image does not suddenly/magically become sRGB. It stays what it
was (as defined in the EXIF tag).

Click to expand...

That's the way it works for me, Christophe. I shoot in aRGB. If I
choose Save As a JPG and remove the checkmark from the Embed
profile, the resulting JPG is in sRGB.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

Click to expand...

Nikon View has an option in the Edit/Preferences/(Color Management) tab for converting AdobeRGB images to sRGB specifically when saving as JPGs or sending via email. If you have this option Checked, you can use Nikon View & Browser for batch conversions of NEF files to JPGs, using the Tools/Copy and resize as JPGs... command.

I wish this option were in Capture, too, (but since the preferences are so intertwined between the two programs it wouldn't surprise me if this affected Capture's treatment of JPGs.) If Kerry's assumption about sRGB output is correct, it could only be if this feature in View worked for Capture save as jpgs.

Chris

Christophe Heyman said:

Is there a way to convert a D2X RAW image from AdobeRGB to sRGB
within Nikon Capture 4.4.0?
On my D2X, I have color space set to AdobeRGB, and color mode set
to II.

I can change Color Mode in Nikon Capture in the Advanced RAW panel,
but there doesn't seem to be a way to reassign/convert the Color
Space.

The annoying thing is that with EXIF 2.21 the actual color space
information (basically the ICC profile) is not stored in the image,
but a reference to the used color space is added in the EXIF data.
Most older software (and some newer... e.g. ACDSee 8 Pro) does not
correctly read the color space from the EXIF data but simply
assumes that the image is sRGB if it can't find an embedded color
space.
So as part of my workflow I want to convert from AdobeRGB NEF to
sRGB JPEG. Of course I can go AdobeRGB NEF -> AdobeRGB TIFF via
Capture -> sRGB JPEG via Photoshop CS2, but that's not exactly a
fast route...

Any insight appreciated!

Thx,
Christophe.

--
You can't have everything - where would you put it?

Equipment in profile.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... where do you see the image becomes sRGB?

What I have found is that Capture always seems to put 'sRGB' in the EXIF header for the color space, even when actually saving with embedded AdobeRGB profile... So when looking at EXIF data alone, it's as if the image is sRGB, where it actually may be AdobeRGB...

Not embedding a profile when saving as a JPEG from Capture actually throws off even CS2! When opening the image in CS2, it picks sRGB as the image color space! However it's quite clear from the washed out colors that the image should actually be AdobeRGB - if you were to assign (not convert to!) AdobeRGB within CS2, you get the correct full color back.

Could someone do this test for me? Maybe this will once and for all clear up my confusion...

• camera settings: AdobeRGB, Mode II, JPEG+RAW
• Capture settings: Default RGB color space = NKAdobe.icm, do NOT check the box 'use this instead of an embedded profile when opening images'
• PS CS2 settings: AdobeRGB working space, preserve Embedded Profiles for RGB and all the checkboxes for 'Ask When Opening' for profile mismatches and missing profiles set to on

1) transfer JPEG/RAW files to PC
2) open JPEG in PS2: check color space (I get AdobeRGB)
3) check JPEG EXIF in e.g. Opanda (I get color space = Uncalibrated)

4) open RAW in Capture, save as JPEG, embed AdobeRGB profile (this will be file A), then close file

5) open RAW again in Capture, save as JPEG, do not embed profile (this will be file B), then close file
6) open file A in Opanda, check color space (I get sRGB)
7) open file B in Opanda, check color space (I get sRGB)
8) open file A in PS2, check color space (I get Nikon Adobe RGB)

9) open file B in PS2 - it shows the mismatch dialog when opening, with embedded profile as sRGB. Select 'Use the embedded profile'

10) compare both pictures within PS2 - you should see the colors are off on file B. If you were to assign (not convert to!) AdobeRGB to this file within PS2, you'll get the correct colors

I sure hope someone can reproduce the above, step by step. For me, the above shows that:
a) Capture screws up EXIF color space field in any case when saving as JPEG
b) Capture cannot convert AdobeRGB to sRGB

c) because of a, when not embedding a profile when saving in Capture, even PS2 gets thrown off into thinking the image is sRGB

Thanks,
Christophe.
--
You can't have everything - where would you put it?

Equipment in profile.

One more step that I forgot:

11) open original JPEG (the one right out of the camera) with PS2 - it will be assigned AdobeRGB (which is correct)

--
You can't have everything - where would you put it?

Equipment in profile.

Christophe Heyman said:

Hmmm... where do you see the image becomes sRGB?
What I have found is that Capture always seems to put 'sRGB' in the
EXIF header for the color space, even when actually saving with
embedded AdobeRGB profile... So when looking at EXIF data alone,
it's as if the image is sRGB, where it actually may be AdobeRGB...

Click to expand...

Yes, the EXIF data is what I was looking at. sigh, that's just another headache with NC, then....

In CS2, I normally "convert" to LAB, do my stuff and then "convert" to sRGB for output.

Christophe Heyman said:

Could someone do this test for me? Maybe this will once and for all
clear up my confusion...

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll take another stab at it later tonight or tomorrow and then see what some of my programs say the actual color space may be, assuming I can figure out how to do that. It never crossed my mind that I wasn't changing the color space... Well, you know what they say about the word assume... :-(

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

Christophe Heyman said:

• camera settings: AdobeRGB, Mode II, JPEG+RAW

Click to expand...

Is using Mode II critical? I've been using Mode I, with aRGB assigned. The d200 isn't like the d70, where Modes I & III are labeled as sRGB, with only Mode II being aRGB. My impression is that you can use any of them, for varying color saturation, Mode I being the lowest.

If that's not correct, I'd like to know.

Christophe Heyman said:

• PS CS2 settings: AdobeRGB working space, preserve Embedded

Profiles for RGB and all the checkboxes for 'Ask When Opening' for
profile mismatches and missing profiles set to on

Click to expand...

I'm a newbie to CS2. These options are unfamiliar to me. I'll look them up and try to ensure that they work the way you describe.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

chris3010 said:

Choosing not to embed a profile will cause your image to display
differently, but it does not convert the colorspace. What you've
described is the difference between an "Assign To..." and a
"Convert To..." in Photoshop. Very different things, very different
results.

Click to expand...

Interesting stuff, Chris. I assume that my ignorance of this issue has caused some problems for me with some images, notably some with certain reds.

Thanks for the info!

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

jwalker019 said:

This checkbox does exactly what it says - does not embed the
correct color profile. Not embedding a color profile is not the
same thing as converting to another color profile

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, John. I can see that my stupidity has been causing me extra work and aggravation. I guess I need to actually crack open some of these books I've had sitting around....

Unfortunately, processing isn't my favorite part of photography, or even my second favorite. :-(

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

It is in the camera and it is in Capture Control so I can only imagine that if change to it in Capture, under color mode, that it is now converted to sRGB.

Howard

....it states that I and Ia, III and IIIa are all sRGB.

Page 36 of the 4.1 version manual

Kerry Pierce said:

Is using Mode II critical? I've been using Mode I, with aRGB
assigned. The d200 isn't like the d70, where Modes I & III are
labeled as sRGB, with only Mode II being aRGB. My impression is
that you can use any of them, for varying color saturation, Mode I
being the lowest.

Click to expand...

Kerry,

tough question... I do not pretend to understand this whole thing, however here's what it looks like...:

Conceptually, using Mode II should not be critical. Here's why - you can set both Color Space and Color Mode separately:
Color Space = sRGB or AdobeRGB
Color Mode = I, II, III (or Ia, II, IIIa on some cameras)

The color mode allows you to have subtle differences in color palettes, (almost) independent from Color Space. I say 'almost', since Color Mode II is not available when Color Space is set to sRGB (if you have Color Space set to AdobeRGB, then go change Color Mode to II, and then change Color Space back to sRGB, the Color Mode will automatically revert back to what it was before you changed it to II).

Color mode II is supposedly the 'neutral' Color Mode when using AdobeRGB Color Space. You can change the Color Mode to I or III if it's better suited to your subject. I is recommended for portrait shots (wider range of flesh tones in the gamut), III is better suited for nature/landscape (more green). In any case, for AdobeRGB, a Color Mode other than II is a deviation from 'neutral'. That's why I just stick to Color Mode II with AdobeRGB.
However.... here's when things get tricky:

in Nikon Capture, when images are opened that are Color Mode II, and you have not checked 'Use this instead of an embedded profile when opening files' in the Color Management settings, the Color Space will always be set as AdobeRGB (which is fine, as color mode II is only available in-camera when the color space is set to AdobeRGB in the first place). So what about images with color space I, Ia, III and IIIa? For D2X and D200 only, the color space that was set in-camera will be selected, BUT for ALL other cameras sRGB will be selected! BTW, I'm not sure what the difference is between I vs. Ia or III vs. IIIa. D2H/D2X don't have Ia/IIIa, whereas e.g. D50/D70 does not have I/III (D50 default is IIIa, D70 default is Ia).

Anyways, it looks like your safest bet is to stick with Mode II in-camera if you want to be sure Nikon Capture selects AdobeRGB as the color space. If you have a D2X or D200, it doesn't matter, but for all other cameras you might get quite unpredictable results if you chose AdobeRGB but e.g. color mode I, which would make Nikon Capture assume the image is sRGB! Of course, you can always change the Color Management setting in Capture to set your Default Color Space to match what you have in-camera and check the box for 'Use this instead of an embedded profile when opening files'

If anybody has more/different information on this, please don't hesitate to enlighten us!

Thx,
Christophe.

Howard S Passman said:

....it states that I and Ia, III and IIIa are all sRGB.

Page 36 of the 4.1 version manual

Click to expand...

It is not correct to tie I/Ia/III/IIIa color modes to the sRGB color space:

the color space that Capture assigns (from my experience it never actually converts anything, it just assigns) depends on several parameters:

• what camera is the picture from (D2X and D200 are handled different from all others)
• what Color Management settings you have (override embedded profile or not, default color space)
• what color space and mode you selected in-camera

E.g. if you have Capture set to default color space NkAdobe.icm (i.e. AdobeRGB), checkbox NOT checked for 'Use this instead of embedded profile', you've taken a picture with your D2X set to AdobeRGB with color mode I, Nikon Capture will assign AdobeRGB as the color space for the image. However, if you had used a D70 with the same settings (but obviously color mode Ia instead of I), Capture would assign sRGB! So in the latter case, you should really check the checkbox for 'Use this instead of embedded profile' and make sure the color space is set to what you had in-camera if you want to make sure Capture assigns AdobeRGB to the D70 picture!

Hope this helps,
Christophe.

--
You can't have everything - where would you put it?

Equipment in profile.

Christophe Heyman said:

Color mode II is supposedly the 'neutral' Color Mode when using
AdobeRGB Color Space. You can change the Color Mode to I or III if
it's better suited to your subject. I is recommended for portrait
shots (wider range of flesh tones in the gamut), III is better
suited for nature/landscape (more green). In any case, for
AdobeRGB, a Color Mode other than II is a deviation from 'neutral'.
That's why I just stick to Color Mode II with AdobeRGB.

Click to expand...

Okay, thanks Christophe. My tests will be with the d200, so I'll stick it in Mode II.

Most of this stuff is way over my head, but if I'm going to expend the effort to do this, I'd like to minimize my mistakes. That way, at least I can maximize my learning experience.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root