5d, ETTL-II and Flash Exposure Accuracy

Can anyone tell me if the 5d with ETTL-II is any more accurate regarding flash exposure consistancy in P and Av modes.

I know most of you shoot manualy but I don't feel comfortable withthat for weddings. I ususally shoot either P or Av depending on the situation and my 1ds is fairly incosistent requiring a lot of PP and bad noise if the exposure is off.

Having had lots of experience with prior Canon flash systems, I'll go on record saying that the latest ETTL-II flash system works great.
All my flash pics are accurate....in ALL modes and ALL conditions.

This is my result using a Canon 5D with 580ex/430ex.

Not too sure about other models.

BruceF said:

Can anyone tell me if the 5d with ETTL-II is any more accurate
regarding flash exposure consistancy in P and Av modes.

I know most of you shoot manualy but I don't feel comfortable
withthat for weddings. I ususally shoot either P or Av depending
on the situation and my 1ds is fairly incosistent requiring a lot
of PP and bad noise if the exposure is off.

Click to expand...

"More accurate" than what? More accurate than ETTL on the 1Ds? Yes, in most circumstances, but not all. More accurate than ETTL-II on the 20D? Yes, always. More accurate than Nikon's metering, probably not.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

BruceF said:

Can anyone tell me if the 5d with ETTL-II is any more accurate
regarding flash exposure consistancy in P and Av modes.

I know most of you shoot manualy but I don't feel comfortable
withthat for weddings. I ususally shoot either P or Av depending
on the situation and my 1ds is fairly incosistent requiring a lot
of PP and bad noise if the exposure is off.

Click to expand...

I am constantly changing exposure modes for flash shooting, the different modes give different results, but first off shooting with the 5D and 28-70 2.8L I found that the DOF was to shallow in shots with groups, so i set my custom button up with AV mode and fixed shutter speed so I can use an a smaller F Stop, then when I want to get ambient light I switch to AV mode and about 500 ISO and a large f stop, I use AV as much as possible, I only use Manual indoors as I had a few bad experiences using manual outdoors just as it was getting dark, I find P mode works well, Oh yeah I always if possible use a stofen difusser with about +2/3 FEC, but I find I am getting better shots than with the 20D,

Although I always moan about the canon flash system, I do think canon will get it right soon, I don't think the nikon flash system is all it is hyped up to be, my friend shoots with a D70 and although his pictures never have washed out faces, the colour and punch of the canon system is better, so much so in fact, he wants me to give him first offer when I sell my 20D, his pictures look so dull next to mine, just goes to show.

Regards, Lawrence

You do know that unless you set the CF that sets flash sync to 1/200 sec that if you shoot in AV it works as fill flash by default?

I do find that ETTL-II produces much much better results that the old ETTL in terms of more consistent better exposed flashes. Much less underexposing than before. That said I do normally use 1/3 or 2/3 flash exposure compensation in most shots to avoid underexposure.

I've tried P and it works fine, but I prefer to use manual most of time for flash. The 580EX works great with the 5D.

BruceF said:

Can anyone tell me if the 5d with ETTL-II is any more accurate
regarding flash exposure consistancy in P and Av modes.

I know most of you shoot manualy but I don't feel comfortable
withthat for weddings. I ususally shoot either P or Av depending
on the situation and my 1ds is fairly incosistent requiring a lot
of PP and bad noise if the exposure is off.

Click to expand...

BruceF said:

Can anyone tell me if the 5d with ETTL-II is any more accurate
regarding flash exposure consistancy in P and Av modes.

I know most of you shoot manualy but I don't feel comfortable
withthat for weddings. I ususally shoot either P or Av depending
on the situation and my 1ds is fairly incosistent requiring a lot
of PP and bad noise if the exposure is off.

Click to expand...

'P' mode will prioritize for exposing the "subject" at the expense of the background, which will probably be dark, which is fine if that is the look you want.

Av & Tv will properly expose for the ambient light. Flash will then be used as fill flash. Problem is, in dim light you will either get too slow a shutter and/or shallow DOF.

'M' allows you the best control control over the mix of ambient and flash....and is really not difficult.

So as not to retype everything, let me point you here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=16975740

Also, a great site for flash technique info is: http://www.planetneil.com/faq/flash-techniques.html

John

Of Nikon's flash metering depends greatly on how you're using the flash. Used automatically, it's great for fill flash - that is, after all, its default mode of operation; however, if flash is your main source of illumination, things get a little stickier, and the user has to override the automation. In this instance, Canon's system gives better results. Of course, there is also the matter of how well the photographer actually understands the function of his/her respective gear; this affects how adept he/she is in its use. Which, also influences his/her subjective opinion of how well said gear functions. So, when you say...

Skip M said:

"More accurate" than what? More accurate than ETTL on the 1Ds?
Yes, in most circumstances, but not all. More accurate than
ETTL-II on the 20D? Yes, always. More accurate than Nikon's
metering, probably not.

Click to expand...

...everyone here reading this should be aware that this is nothing more than a matter of personal preference, since we have no idea just how you attempted to use the gear, nor of your capability to exploit either or all of these configurations to their fullest potential.

In the hands of a capable photographer, either system can produce superlative results. As do fully manual strobes under the orchestration of thousands of studio and location photographers every single day. Technology without a fundamental understanding of both its intricasies as well as the fundamentals of light is simply a more expedient means to achieve resolutely average results.

--
Garland Cary

1Ds has E-TTL while 5D has E-TTL II

E-TTL on 1Ds will link the flash exposure (in terms of metering and emission and duration of the strobe) to the active focus area at the moment of the pre-flash.
That is the cause of the laughable performance of the canon flashes on 1Ds

simple like that: it's unreliable just because it depends on the area where you get the focus (bright will underexpose, dark will overexpose)

It doesn't matter how we turn this sentence because it will end up to the same laughable result .

And there is nothing you can do about it because it's an "automatic" system: the only way to avoid this is to FEL focussing somewhere else, then recompose and re-shoot. (FEL will pre-flash, people will believe that you took the shot and everybody will leave the scene and when you'll finally get the shot you'll get eyes closed, people backs and so on...)

1Ds users shouldn't rely on canon flashes. Only metz or quantums because they have their own auto system. Has been said many times and Canon (finally) responded with the better E-TTL II on the new cameras (like the 5D). Now the flash is more consistent but still not quite "solid" like the metz and quantums (yet)

--
OLNSLO

Check this link for improved 1DS ETTL flash exposure. http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photography/1ds_and_ettl_flash.htm

jrsforums said:

'P' mode will prioritize for exposing the "subject" at the expense
of the background, which will probably be dark, which is fine if
that is the look you want.
John

Click to expand...

I wish that were true. Or rather I wish it were true for me. This topic is perennial and in fact I was just about to start it up all over again. After getting my 5D, I thought I would check to see if I had the same under exposure problems I had with previous Canon camera/flash combinations.

Sure enough, there it is again. Here is a grab shot of Hercules the wonder dog using a 580EX in a small room. P mode (where the subject should be correctly lit by the flash).



I just don't see any way in which this can be interpreted as correctly exposed. Nor is this shot unrepresentative. Other posters here have maintained that in the hands of a competent photographer, the system performs just fine. And I'm sure it does. Other than cranking up the FEC is there anything I should be doing here?

--
-wick

Thanks William (I actually knew about it) but...

why on earth should I have to do that?

because it says Canon on it?

any other reason?

Wick Smith said:

jrsforums said:

'P' mode will prioritize for exposing the "subject" at the expense
of the background, which will probably be dark, which is fine if
that is the look you want.
John

Click to expand...

I wish that were true. Or rather I wish it were true for me. This
topic is perennial and in fact I was just about to start it up all
over again. After getting my 5D, I thought I would check to see if
I had the same under exposure problems I had with previous Canon
camera/flash combinations.

Sure enough, there it is again. Here is a grab shot of Hercules the
wonder dog using a 580EX in a small room. P mode (where the subject
should be correctly lit by the flash).

I just don't see any way in which this can be interpreted as
correctly exposed. Nor is this shot unrepresentative. Other posters
here have maintained that in the hands of a competent photographer,
the system performs just fine. And I'm sure it does. Other than
cranking up the FEC is there anything I should be doing here?

--
-wick

Click to expand...

Wick,

There are two problems with the photo you attempted to shoot. First, what is the subject. Second, the typical "wedding problem"...bride in white and groom in black.

If you read the post I referenced, you whould have seen Westfall's explanation of ETTL-II:

"...In the new algorithm, ambient light is measured when the shutter button is pressed. Next, a pre-flash is fired and the metering sensor takes readings at the central 17 metering zones. The ambient and pre-flash readings are compared. The metering areas having a small difference are selected as the flash exposure metering areas....These readings are weighted, averaged and compared with the ambient light reading, and the main flash output is then set and stored in memory. E-TTL II weights and averages the flash metering for the subject and all other objects at the same distance as the subject..."

In this photo, with no real depth, the camera looks at everything as the "subject" It cannot tell if you want the dark dog or the bright floor....which is the bride/groom problem. It is going to try to meter for the gray floor, not the dark dog...to protect you from blown highlights. In a case like this, you need to "tell" the camera that you want the dark item to have more light...with FEC.

ETTL-II is pretty good, but it is not magical...

John

fuzzytalz said:

Skip M said:

"More accurate" than what? More accurate than ETTL on the 1Ds?
Yes, in most circumstances, but not all. More accurate than
ETTL-II on the 20D? Yes, always. More accurate than Nikon's
metering, probably not.

Click to expand...

...everyone here reading this should be aware that this is nothing
more than a matter of personal preference, since we have no idea
just how you attempted to use the gear, nor of your capability to
exploit either or all of these configurations to their fullest
potential.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you were directing this at me or the OP, but in case it was at me, I agree wholeheartedly. I guess I should have expanded more on what I said, like to say that Nikon's system is better than Canon's in the circumstances you detail, except I've found Canon's more biased toward fill than Nikon's but, like you said, that's opinion.

fuzzytalz said:

In the hands of a capable photographer, either system can produce
superlative results. As do fully manual strobes under the
orchestration of thousands of studio and location photographers
every single day. Technology without a fundamental understanding of
both its intricasies as well as the fundamentals of light is simply
a more expedient means to achieve resolutely average results.

--
Garland Cary

Click to expand...

Anyway, not really a bone of contention, here.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Thank you for your reply. I can see that in the case I posted, the metering system didn't stand a chance.

Canon has a nice tutorial that someone here pointed out, and despite its understandably self-serving advocacy for the system, still provides some interesting information. Westfall's technical description is almost too complete to be useful. Still, I can parse that Canon's system is highly biased toward mixing flash and ambient light, rather than simply trying to compensate for inadequate light, which was the original intent of flash.

This is a great idea, once you know that's what the system is going to do. But let me ask you a question which is still not clear to me. In a party or restaurant situation, where the ambient light is very poor and you want to use flash to create the right illumination on the subject without attempting to balance with the ambient light, what is the correct setting? sometimes you just need to use flash the old-fashioned way to light up the subject.

Also, can you tell me what is the effect of the camera's custom function that changes the flash metering system from evaluative to average? How does that affect the result? Does it remove the camera's own metering from the equation and use only the metering for the flash? If so, the naming is not intuitive.

Thanks in advance for any help you care to give.

--
-wick

Wick Smith said:

Thank you for your reply. I can see that in the case I posted, the
metering system didn't stand a chance.

Canon has a nice tutorial that someone here pointed out, and
despite its understandably self-serving advocacy for the system,
still provides some interesting information. Westfall's technical
description is almost too complete to be useful. Still, I can parse
that Canon's system is highly biased toward mixing flash and
ambient light, rather than simply trying to compensate for
inadequate light, which was the original intent of flash.

This is a great idea, once you know that's what the system is going
to do. But let me ask you a question which is still not clear to
me. In a party or restaurant situation, where the ambient light is
very poor and you want to use flash to create the right
illumination on the subject without attempting to balance with the
ambient light, what is the correct setting? sometimes you just need
to use flash the old-fashioned way to light up the subject.

Click to expand...

You can use 'P' mode. Problem is, it will usually set shutter at 60 and your widest aperture. This might not be fast enough to stop action and the DOF might be too narrow to get what you want in focus. When I am just taking snap shots, I will usually set 'M' mode to 100 or125 and f7.1 or 8.0. This should stop action and give good DOF. If you have a 580EX, use the white card and shoot like a PJ, varying the angle from straight up to 45 deg. depending on how much bounce vs. direct flash you want (normally do not shoot straight ahead it will be too harsh). If you do not have a 580, use a 3x5 card and rubber band. In some cases, I will use a Stofen to get more spread/diffuse light, sometimes with a white plastic card (made my own) velcroed (or rubber band, if you want) to get more direct. (you will still have the bride/groom situation to watch after...nothing changes the camera trying to meter as gray).

Wick Smith said:

Also, can you tell me what is the effect of the camera's custom
function that changes the flash metering system from evaluative to
average?

Click to expand...

In Westfall's post, the net, as in my words, is that in evaluative flash mode, the camera evaluates the light differences between the ambient and pre-flash metering. Based on that it determines the "subject" and applies it's algorithm to anywhere from 1 to 17 metering segments depending on the camera's analysis of the pre-flash information.

In average flash mode (Cfn 14=1) "...flashmetering is averaged for all 17 metering segments..."

Wick Smith said:

How does that affect the result?

Click to expand...

From Westfall's post: "...Averaged flash metering may be preferable when using direct flash with lenses that don't have a built-in distance encoder, but we encourage Mark II owners to try both settings on C.Fn 14 to see which metering method they prefer....This gives the photographer more flexibility in setting up the camera according to their personal preferences. Original E-TTL can't average its flashmetering unless specific camera settings are used...."

See: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=17039340 (see also my reply on AFFR)

While Nadine (and I) do not (noramlly) like "averaging", some do. Best you try both and decide for yourself.

Wick Smith said:

Does it remove the
camera's own metering from the equation and use only the metering
for the flash?

Click to expand...

If I understand what you are asking, the answer is "No". The ambient metering and the pre-flash are both integral to the algorithm....of course, Canon has never told us how, exactly, they are used...trade secrets, you know

Wick Smith said:

If so, the naming is not intuitive.

Click to expand...

I think it is as descrptive as you can get in using a minimal set of word(s) to describe the function.

Wick Smith said:

Thanks in advance for any help you care to give.

--
-wick

Click to expand...

Hope this helps...JOHN

I can't speak from personal experience, but I have seen threads on the same topic on a number of other boards. There seems to be something of a concensus that it under exposes by between 1/2 and 2/3 of a stop.
If you are shooting RAW is that going to cause a problem?
--
Regards

Keith

Keitht said:

I can't speak from personal experience, but I have seen threads on
the same topic on a number of other boards. There seems to be
something of a concensus that it under exposes by between 1/2 and
2/3 of a stop.
If you are shooting RAW is that going to cause a problem?

Click to expand...

You can compensate, but it's always best to get exposure pretty much as correct as you can to give yourself more latitude.
--
-wick

PC writes:

No, even the 1ds Mark II the ETTL-II is any more accurate then the 1Ds. Look folks, if I have to think about where I must place my focusing point on the subject, what flash comp setting I must be using, evaluative vs average, and so on... then Canon fail to produce an accurate flash system. Sure ETTL-II is a little better than the earlier version but there is no cigar yet.

And yes, I heard this before "It's not the equipment, it is the photographer"

Paul