S4 Announcement - Days away?

Nikon could just go out and buy many thousends of F6 bodies from distributors, and modify those. Would be more expensive and disassembly would cost too, but in fact there is nothing Nikon could do to stop it. Nothing. So if e.g. Fuji says we want 200 000 those but cripled and Nikon can get the same profit per body even with the crippled ones, I assume Nikon has no problem with that. They could even get better profits... who knows.

That aside, there has been plenty of talk why Nikon will allow Fuji to sell what it wants, to me this kind of thinkin is as clever as "why would canon allow you to drink orange juice?". They can not do anything about it, so you drink if you like. Same goes with modifying cameras...
nikon provide fuji with a high end body and then have fuji come out
with a full frame sensor or a large megapixel sensor.....everyone
would buy fuji....that to me would be like sticking a fork in
themselves....fuji is stuck with whatever nikon gives them....what
fuji and nikon should do is combine their efforts....fuji make
sensors, nikon make camera bodies....would blow the market away...

gman
http://www.discoveringitall.com
--
Osku
 
company sells the camera with different marketing name in different continents (US, Europe and Japan may all have different names, see how Canon does it...).
--
' lets see what's out there.....engage'
--
Osku
 
Hi-

I'm currently a Kodak slr/n user, & want to relate a few comments that I feel may be applicable to the Fuji/Nikon relationship.

When Kodak started introducing DSLR's, both Canon & Nikon flagship camera bodies were available to them. My Kodak 750 even says "developed in cooperation with Nikon"

Then Canon says: Hey, we're gonna make our own digital camera. Sorry Kodak, no can do....

The last in the 6mp Kodak cameras is a Nikon only body option, the 760. F5 body-- a true tank- built to last. Still a great 6mp camera.

Kodak decides to up the ante again to 13 mp-- They are told by Nikon they cannot have the f5 or f100 body. (a tech at Kodak told me they really wanted the f100 body as the build around) So the pro 14n & slr/n cameras used the prosumer f80. Kodak's answer was that Nikon could not produce enough of their pro level for their own needs-- not sure if that is true or if Nikon wants the competiors "build quality" somewhat lower.

Now Kodak has dropped the whole game, and is concentrating on what they originally set out to do... make SENSORS!

The 760 is only 3 years from phase-out and Kodak is no longer supporting repair (no parts) and Nikon will not look at it-"not a Nikon product". I know, I sent my 760 in because of a lens bayonet issue, and both companies have washed their hands of it.

The pro slr/n is being repaired through 2007, according to Kodak today. They do change their minds often.

What am I getting at? I think it's Fuji's turn to bail. If an S4 is produced, it could very well be the last one, unless it rocks the world, or Fuji builds it themselves. These cross-platform cameras put an interesting twist into the long term servicablity issue.

Although I would be tempted to look at an S4 if it's full frame, as I think that is the right direction, I'd be concerned that I have another Kodak/Nikon relationship blunder on my hands.

Fuji makes great sensors. Nikon makes great cameras. Fuji should sell the sensor to Nikon & we'll get the best of both worlds, not some comprised camera because Nikon won't give Fuji the best of their technology.

Just my opinion.
 
I think the lack of the N80 body sums it up pretty well.

I don't see Fuji getting access/affording a different Nikon Body.

Perhaps the Nikon Fuji relationship is weaker than many imagine or maybe the lack of a body that Nikon doesn't care about just simply shuts the door for now on Fuji. Maybe they wre slightly caught by suprise and have to think about their options and do not yet have a plan.

Let's see PMA pass and what happens, Fuji may have a larger presence at PMA simply because they are giving the Keynote.

Maybe a Nikon Fuji deal will happen.... maybe nothing. Of course we mere uninformed can only speculate.

--
Mark Abraham
Now and Forever Photography
Website: http://www.nowandforeverphotography.com
Website: http://www.radphotos.net
 
I think the lack of the N80 body sums it up pretty well.

I don't see Fuji getting access/affording a different Nikon Body.
Perhaps this is correct, but remember Nikon did license the F5 body to Kodak to make DSLR's in what seems decades ago. I also think they licensed the F90x as well, but if my memory is correct it was a back that went on the F90x so perhaps a license was not required.

The question is can Fuji license the F6 and produce a DSLR that is competitive and affordable in todays market? When the F5 was used as a digital body cameras cost considerably more than they do now, maybe the margins are just not there anymore.

Moreover, Nikon are now major player in the DSLR market, its a core part of the Nikon imaging arm. Maybe they don't want to license the F6 or any of their digital bodies to Fuji.

Of course all we can do is speculate and wait and see what happens. Unlike many on these forums I don't know anyone who is well informed with accurate inside information.

Regards

Simon
--
http://www.sbphotography.org.uk
 
Wonder if Jumbuck as Jumbuck just disappears when the goods are not
delivered or if it will be a I heard its will be later kind of deal?

Jumbuck predictions anyone?
My bet is he'll stick around to suffer tremendous indignation if his sources are proved wrong.

Jumbuck
 
in a heartbeat.

A great S4 is my last hope after the D200 mess before running off and buying a 5D.
 
Nikon F4, Nikon S4, Olympus OM4... just 3 unlucky ones... :-)

--
Kevin P Kitching
 
Nikon could just go out and buy many thousends of F6 bodies from
distributors, and modify those.
Osku, from what I understant, that's what they're already doing on the S3: buying N80 bodies wholesale. Nikon lets them buy larger than normal quantities of some service parts, like D100 white shutter curtains for D-TTL, and F100 remote jacks, but that's it.
Would be more expensive and
disassembly would cost too,
That's pretty much what the insides of S2 and S3 already look like, complere N80 bodies, dismantled, clamshells discarded, some extra mounting holes drilled to secure sensor and processor boards, and then reassembled in Fuji's cast clamshells. Not cheap cameras to build.
but in fact there is nothing Nikon
could do to stop it. Nothing.
Unfortunatly, I think Nikon may already have done something to stop it. Not intentionally or maliciously, but just as a consequence of how F6 is built.

First, N80 used a standard Nikon 10 zone meter, which is 5 large photodiodes, four of which basically quarter the screen and the fifth cuts a mostly circular chunk out of the other 4 (the other 5 zones are "spots" from the AF sensors, a neat trick Nikon's been using since 8008s). If you mask off that metering system, you cut the area of the outer 4 cells in half, they still operate but generate a bit less photocurrent, so you just increase gain a bit to compensate, and the metering system works (matrix metering makes worse decisions, though).

F6 uses a 1005 zone meter. When you mask off the viewfinder for a 1.5x crop sensor, about 560 of the 1005 cells are blocked off totally, and 445 cells are actually exposed. So the matrix meter sees the scene as a bright rectangle in the center of a large black area. What does that look like? A portrait against a black background. It doesn't matter what kind of scene your're actually photographing, to the messed up matrix, it's now a portrait.

So, unless Fuji builds a full frame camera, they're not using F6 unless they get Nikon's help to either change to a smaller sensor that concentrates on the cropped area, or Nikon writes new firmware to allow metering decisions to be based only on the cropped sensor area.

The second issue, N80 had a rather uncomplicated internal interface to the upper processor (the one that runs metering, auto exposure, the shutter, and the control interface for all the upper panel knobs and switches). F6 is a nightmare, it depends very heavily on its back LCD and buttons. Fuji would have to reverse engineer all that to get into the F6 control system.
So if e.g. Fuji says we want 200 000
those but cripled and Nikon can get the same profit per body even
with the crippled ones, I assume Nikon has no problem with that.
They could even get better profits... who knows.

That aside, there has been plenty of talk why Nikon will allow Fuji
to sell what it wants, to me this kind of thinkin is as clever as
"why would canon allow you to drink orange juice?". They can not
do anything about it, so you drink if you like. Same goes with
modifying cameras...
Until those cameras become so complicated that you can't modify themselves anymore.

If your refrigerator had a complex locking mechanism built by Canon, you would have have to beg Canon to let you have some orange juice.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Thirty five, thirteen, and five. Nashville? You must be kidding!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Thirty eight and six!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Hi-

I'm currently a Kodak slr/n user, & want to relate a few comments
that I feel may be applicable to the Fuji/Nikon relationship.

When Kodak started introducing DSLR's, both Canon & Nikon flagship
camera bodies were available to them. My Kodak 750 even says
"developed in cooperation with Nikon"

Then Canon says: Hey, we're gonna make our own digital camera.
Sorry Kodak, no can do....

The last in the 6mp Kodak cameras is a Nikon only body option, the
760. F5 body-- a true tank- built to last. Still a great 6mp camera.
Correct, up to this point...
Kodak decides to up the ante again to 13 mp-- They are told by
Nikon they cannot have the f5 or f100 body. (a tech at Kodak told
me they really wanted the f100 body as the build around) So the pro
14n & slr/n cameras used the prosumer f80.
Kodak still had plenty of cooperation at this point. Supposedly, Nikon gave them many choices.

Modify whatever camera you want into a DSLR. We'll help you with minor modifications, like we did on all the Kodak/Nikons before. Or, if you're willing to pay, we'll make you whatever you want.

Use one of our "DSLR kits", with chassis set up for easy integration with menu systems, cleaning mode and anti-shock mode for sensors, D-TTL metering all ready to go. We've got the D100 kit and the D1X kit.

Kodak opted for a "D100 kit".
Kodak's answer was that
Nikon could not produce enough of their pro level for their own
needs-- not sure if that is true or if Nikon wants the competiors
"build quality" somewhat lower.
Nikon doesn't care, as long as you've got money.
Now Kodak has dropped the whole game, and is concentrating on what
they originally set out to do... make SENSORS!

The 760 is only 3 years from phase-out and Kodak is no longer
supporting repair (no parts) and Nikon will not look at it-"not a
Nikon product". I know, I sent my 760 in because of a lens bayonet
issue, and both companies have washed their hands of it.
But most independent shops can fix the 760 as if it were an F5. A lens mount problem should be a snap. What country are you in?
The pro slr/n is being repaired through 2007, according to Kodak
today. They do change their minds often.

What am I getting at? I think it's Fuji's turn to bail. If an S4 is
produced, it could very well be the last one, unless it rocks the
world, or Fuji builds it themselves. These cross-platform cameras
put an interesting twist into the long term servicablity issue.
True, and the quality and scope of repairs vary from country to country. Unfortunatly, you can't separate the N80 from an S3 the way you can pull a 760 apart.
Although I would be tempted to look at an S4 if it's full frame, as
I think that is the right direction, I'd be concerned that I have
another Kodak/Nikon relationship blunder on my hands.

Fuji makes great sensors. Nikon makes great cameras. Fuji should
sell the sensor to Nikon & we'll get the best of both worlds, not
some comprised camera because Nikon won't give Fuji the best of
their technology.

Just my opinion.
It's a reasonable opinion. Only problem I see is that, selling S3, Fuji has a lot more opportunity for profit than selling sensors. They have to match Sony margins to do that, and Sony is pushing APS sensors (literally) by the millions.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Thirty five, thirteen, and five. Nashville? You must be kidding!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Thirty eight and six!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
I think the lack of the N80 body sums it up pretty well.

I don't see Fuji getting access/affording a different Nikon Body.
Perhaps this is correct, but remember Nikon did license the F5 body
to Kodak to make DSLR's in what seems decades ago. I also think
they licensed the F90x as well, but if my memory is correct it was
a back that went on the F90x so perhaps a license was not required.
The question is can Fuji license the F6 and produce a DSLR that is
competitive and affordable in todays market?
Well, if you don't look at it as a licensing question, and look at the big issue:

It costs a lot of money to convert a film SLR into a DSLR. There's a lot of engineering that has to be done. I summarized it in a post to Osku, earlier.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=17016793

You need modifications to the metering system, to the shutter, to the internal control interface of the camera.

It looks like Fuji tackled this all by themselves when they turned N80 into S3, and the results were an erratic metering system, controls that can't be set in 1/3 stop increments, and a vertical grip without command dials and a shutter button that can't wake the camera.

Kodak obviously got a lot more cooperation with Nikon on 14n and SLR/n. Now, whether the difference in the way Nikon relates to Fuji and to Kodak, or just that Kodak was waving around a handful of money, is unknown.
When the F5 was used
as a digital body cameras cost considerably more than they do now,
maybe the margins are just not there anymore.
Maybe. If the cost of integration increases (as I believe is the case with F6) and the margins on the cameras decrease, it's not a good market to be in.
Moreover, Nikon are now major player in the DSLR market, its a core
part of the Nikon imaging arm. Maybe they don't want to license the
F6 or any of their digital bodies to Fuji.
It's not really a licensing issue. As Osku pointed out, if Fuji can buy F6 wholesale, and figure out how to turn it into S4, there's very little Nikon can do to stop them.
Of course all we can do is speculate and wait and see what happens.
Unlike many on these forums I don't know anyone who is well
informed with accurate inside information.
I do, but it's not yielding anything interesting in this instance. More on how things have been done, than what's being done right now.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Thirty five, thirteen, and five. Nashville? You must be kidding!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Thirty eight and six!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Thom now that Sony have Minolta and the possibility of a
por/prosumer DSLR of their own with Minolta body and lenses do
they really need Nikon or perhaps do they really need other
players.
Let's see, over 60m digital cameras were sold last year and the vast majority (let's say 70%) of those had Sony sensors in them. Sony sold something like 16m digital cameras. So, if they don't need other players they could run their sensor plants at 40% of what they're currently running. Not going to happen. Someone's head would roll if that were to happen.

Beyond that, Nikon and Sony have an interesting interlocked R&D in sensors (as do some others). Nikon may be rethinking that relationship today, but it still exists at the moment, and it is mutually beneficial.
Rumour says that Sony want 25% of the market and soon !
That's not a rumor, it's a statement from the head of Sony's camera division (actually, he said 20-25% of the low-end DSLR market if I translated his Japanese correctly).
Nilkon must have felt the sands shifting, that un ease when the FF
chip is delayed yet again or whatever else they find working with
another big or bigger company.
Nikon has never shown any panic towards sensor development. Indeed, just the opposite, IMHO. Rather than lock into a particular sensor design, they've done the Chinese menu thing and picked one from column A, one from column B, etc., as the need arose. The next Nikon DSLR will have a Nikon sensor again (LBCAST). What happens after that is unknown, but I'd have to guess that right now that no dramatic change will occur. It'll be easy enough to tell. When the D70s replacement comes, if it has another Sony sensor, then nothing changed as a result of the KM/Sony deal. If it has something else, then Sony lost their primary APS-sensor customer in order to be a camera maker player.
So is it that the final partnership is to be Sony/KM ,
Fuji/Nikon and Pentax/Oly/Panasonic/Samsung
My belief is that there ultimately will be almost NO partnerships in DSLRs. The final tally is likely to be: Canon, Nikon, Sony, and maybe Fujifilm by themselves. Olympus requires a partner, unfortunately, which puts them at a disadvantage long-term (hint to Olympus: you need to turn that around and make it a marketing advantage). Pentax isn't long for the world, and I have doubts as to whether Samsung will be successful.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
Kodak decides to up the ante again to 13 mp-- They are told by
Nikon they cannot have the f5 or f100 body. (a tech at Kodak told
me they really wanted the f100 body as the build around) So the pro
14n & slr/n cameras used the prosumer f80. Kodak's answer was that
Nikon could not produce enough of their pro level for their own
needs-- not sure if that is true or if Nikon wants the competiors
"build quality" somewhat lower.
If you had ever seen the plant at which the F5 and F100 and D1 were made, you'd know why Nikon was reluctant to continue to license those bodies, especially if the volume was going to be significant. The plant was a jam-packed mishmash of dies, stamps, molds, hand-build lines, and had no extra capacity at all. That's all gone today, replaced by a more streamlined operation that simply makes F6 and D2 bodies, with common parts and common procedures. At the time Kodak was talking Pro 14n options with Nikon, the question to Nikon was essentially a cost issue. Remember, Kodak had a foundary in, I think CO, that did an all new chassis design, and they had their own external plastics. Moreover, Kodak claims that they used a different shutter than the N80s. That meant that Nikon had to supply either fully built cameras that got torn down by Kodak and rebuilt, or lots of little subsystems components that Kodak needed to reassemble. Neither was a particularly welcome option (the F100 plant had no real way to ship parts and subassemblies; heck, it didn't have space to put those aside separately).

The thing I don't understand is why the Japanese companies haven't figured out how to go modular with DSLRs. It's not exactly as if the camera portions are changing from camera to camera (and even then, those features are just evolutionary creep, not revolutionary). Why we don't have a company that's figured out how to simply put new digital guts into the same basic body on demand, I don't know. First one there, wins, I think.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top