CD or DVD Marker/Acid Free

I took some pictures, burned them to a CD-R, then gave the images to a friend. I used a marker (Avery product) to write on the CD. My friend asked if the marker's ink was acid free/ph neutral. He said the acid in the ink (even dried) could etch into the CD and damage data files. (My mind immediately counted the number of photo CDs I have made). I have no idea if the ink is acid free.

So, where does one find acid free/ph neutral marker/pens for writing on CDs and DVDs? (Assuming my friend's assertion about inks with acid is true)

Many thanks for any help.
--
thezero

they sell dedicated pens for CD/DVD labeling use nowadays. i didn't check your location, but if i can get them, then they are most likely available in whole of developed world.

Duwane Huffaker said:

So, where does one find acid free/ph neutral marker/pens for
writing on CDs and DVDs? (Assuming my friend's assertion about inks
with acid is true)

Click to expand...

it is when it comes to CDs. the upper layer is very thin and it is known that labeling can penetrate the protective layers and damage data - although this is a rare event (if it wasn't there would be BIG warnings everywhere in the CD). it's not true with DVDs though, because DVDs are a sandwich of two .6mm discs, unlike the CD which is one 1.2mm disc. you'd need some seriously corrosive pen which could burn through that polycarbonate. it would be way too dangerous to your health anyway

--

Nekdo je moral Josefa K. o'crniti, zakaj ne da bi bil storil kaj slabega, so ga nekega jutra prijeli.

From what I've read, what your friend has told you is true. And it's not worth the risk to doubt it or dispute it. You can find alcohol / solvent free pens at most office supply stores, or:
http://www.delkin.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=187&cat=53&page=1

there are water-based permanent markers made for writing on CDs, I use some Memorex branded ones, though I'm sure there are other brands. basically you want some kind of non-solvent or non-alcohol based pen if you're concerned about long life of the media. for casual use I wouldn't worry too much.

be careful of some products labeled as CD markers - I've seen some (I forget the brand) that are labelled as CD markers but yet don't reveal if they're solvent-based or what. makes me suspicious...
if you want to read the detailed reasons see
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/CDandDVDCareandHandlingGuide.pdf

Duwane Huffaker said:

I took some pictures, burned them to a CD-R, then gave the images
to a friend. I used a marker (Avery product) to write on the CD.
My friend asked if the marker's ink was acid free/ph neutral. He
said the acid in the ink (even dried) could etch into the CD and
damage data files. (My mind immediately counted the number of
photo CDs I have made). I have no idea if the ink is acid free.

So, where does one find acid free/ph neutral marker/pens for
writing on CDs and DVDs? (Assuming my friend's assertion about inks
with acid is true)

Click to expand...

Sanford expressly does not guarantee that Sharpies are OK for CDs, but the truth is that a zillion folks have been marking CD-r's with Sharpies for many years. If they were really bad (as bad as many adhesive labels, for example), it seems likely word would have gotten out.

Personally, I like the odds using what has worked for so many other people better than the odds of a new product of small user base which just self-designates as OK for CD's.

Of course, if you use the Ultra-Fine and press hard enough, you might manage to do mechanical damage to the very thin layer over the protection layer, which would be bad, but against stupidty, there is little protection.

--
Peter A. Stoll
new 350D user July 1, 2005

Many thanks for your responses. They are helping me.

--
thezero

but that didn't make smoking safe, or the "odds" better, before we knew better

the manufacturer of the pen I mentioned is NOT the originator of the idea that solvents are bad for CDs. they're not "self-designated" as safe. I don't think there's anything magic in a "new product" like a water-based product... it's what it doesn't have that matters

the doc I referenced is from the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology). you may believe what they say, or not. I know this can be one of those religious arguments for some. of course for casual use, it really may not matter to most people.
if you don't want to read the whole doc, on p22 it says in part

"Numerous CD vendors have noted that the thin protective laquer coating [of the CD] can deterorate from contact with certain sovents in markers. To eliminate the risk water-based markers are recommended for CD labelling."

Note that on a CD, the laquer layer (label side) is usually very thin and therefore contrary to what you might think the CD is more easily damaged from that side than the bottom. the data layer is very close to the label side of the CD. DVD's are much thicker on the label side and this is not so much an issue.

In the executive summary, they highlight only 4 essential points: "For CDs especially do not:
1. scratch the label side of the disc
2. use a pen, pencil, or fine-tip marker to write on the disc
3. write on the disc with markers that contain solvents
4. try to peel off or reposition a label"

Note all these warnings relate to protecting the label side from damage or deterioration.

the fact that some markers aren't labelled as to whether they're solvent-based or not worries me (sure, only a bit) but obviously doesn't worry a lot of people at all. lots of people today still smoke cigarettes too, with no apparent immediate negative effect... but many years later?? anyhow in the end, everyone can decide for themselves

archae86 said:

Sanford expressly does not guarantee that Sharpies are OK for CDs,
but the truth is that a zillion folks have been marking CD-r's with
Sharpies for many years. If they were really bad (as bad as many
adhesive labels, for example), it seems likely word would have
gotten out.

Personally, I like the odds using what has worked for so many other
people better than the odds of a new product of small user base
which just self-designates as OK for CD's.

Of course, if you use the Ultra-Fine and press hard enough, you
might manage to do mechanical damage to the very thin layer over
the protection layer, which would be bad, but against stupidty,
there is little protection.

Click to expand...

I think we are talking about relative risk here--I made no claim of absolute safety for Sharpies.

I'm not worried about the water. I am worried about the rest of the stuff in the new markers.

Even a slight mechanical imperfection in the protective layer over the reflective layer is an entry point--once such a path exists, it does matter what the composition of the most readily available contaminants is. This was demonstrated on a disturbingly large scale in the many months of production from a certain CD factory in the U.K. I had the misfortune to own six of the affected disks.

Or is their some evidence at hand of the safety of the other components (not the water) in these markers. And, if that is not "self-designated" than by whom is it backed up?
--
new 350D user July 1, 2005

archae86 said:

Sanford expressly does not guarantee that Sharpies are OK for CDs,
but the truth is that a zillion folks have been marking CD-r's with
Sharpies for many years. If they were really bad (as bad as many
adhesive labels, for example), it seems likely word would have
gotten out.

Click to expand...

Well I guess I'm one of the zillions that will get the word out then. Don't use standard Sharpies for marking your CDs. They eat thru the lacquer finish and will destroy your data. I have CDs that are around 4 years old now that are no longer readable because I used a Sharpie to label them. If I hold these discs up to a light, I can now see tiny pinholes showing thru on the marked portions of the disc.

Sanford has released "Sharpies for CDs" that are expressly for marking CD and DVD media. (I don't know how good they are, but I have been using them. They don't have the same solvent smell as the normal Sharpies.)

=-eos-=

do you recall which brand CDs you saw destroyed by Sharpies?

And thanks for sharing this information--I had not heard of examples of this.

I have a few DVDs I think are meant to be archival, and I've marked on them with Sharpies--I'd bettery pull them off the shelf and check them real soon-probably copy them.

What do you use to mark archive disks? While I've put paper labels on many hundreds of audio Cd-rs, I've read too many credible stories of paper label trouble to be even a little eager to use that method.

Also, where have you seen the Sanford one marked for CDs for sale? I'd be inclined to trust them a little more than others--they have more to lose.
--
Peter A. Stoll
new 350D user July 1, 2005

archae86 said:

do you recall which brand CDs you saw destroyed by Sharpies?

Click to expand...

Yes one was a gold Kodak, and a few others were CompUSA generic brands (okay yeah, not the best discs, but Sharpie-damaged nonetheless.)

archae86 said:

I have a few DVDs I think are meant to be archival, and I've marked
on them with Sharpies--I'd bettery pull them off the shelf and
check them real soon-probably copy them.

Click to expand...

Yes I would definitely copy them again.

archae86 said:

What do you use to mark archive disks? While I've put paper labels
on many hundreds of audio Cd-rs, I've read too many credible
stories of paper label trouble to be even a little eager to use
that method.

Click to expand...

Yeah paper labels are not a good way to go. They have issues with the adhesive and also causing CDs to go off balance. My friend actually had a CD explode in his drive because of a badly balanced CD (shards of plastic everywhere, had to trash the drive after that.) I've been using a Casio CW-50 thermal printer (yes more than likely also not archival) and also making multiple copies (one of which is only labelled only on the spindle, not anywhere in the data region of the disc.) All discs are run thru XDir to generate a sumcheck of the discs contents so that I can detect a bad disc later on and restore from one of the backup copies. I generally make 3 copies of an archive and try to put them on different brand discs. I should be using different drives to burn the different discs, but that's a little more of a hassle than I want to deal with. I do read the discs to generate the sumcheck on a different machine/drive, so I think that's adequate to detect any mistracking issues.

archae86 said:

Also, where have you seen the Sanford one marked for CDs for sale?
I'd be inclined to trust them a little more than others--they have
more to lose.

Click to expand...

Sanford 'Sharpies for CDs' should be available at any well stocked office supply store. I bought my last pack over at Staples.

=-eos-=

I have been using a set of markers sold by TDK. They are sold as CD/DVD markers and come in a set of 2: one permanent, the other not. But there is no clear indication that they are acid free.

One poster has tried to analyze how the acid can work its way through the polycarbonate to the surface containing the data. But I suspect the mechanism is more likely to be fumes which can find their way to the other side, especially if the disk is stored in a closed space, like an album or a jewel box, rather than borin gtheir way through the plastic...

The CD construction has the data layer immediately beneath the top where you are writing, so it is more easily physically or chemically damaged. Since the DVD has the data surface in the exact middle, between the two 0.6mm thick polycarbonate halves, it ought to be better protected. Still, I have read that various air pollutants can in the presence of moisture seep through the polycarbonate material over time, so it doesn't hurt to be cautious with the markers.

I buy the inkjet-printable DVDs and print on them with my Epson printer. This gives a nice professional look and avoids potential solvent problems, at least as far as I know.

I just bought a pack of 4 Sharpie CD/DVD markers at Office Max. They had packs of 4 black pens or a pack with black/red/blue/green. Each 4-pack was $7 and each pen has a tip on each end(fine and ultra-fine on each pen).

The package says they have a 'non-abrasive tip that won't scratch CD/DVD labeling surface' and a 'specially forumulated ink for digital media'.

I think this is one of those issues we won't know the answer about until it's too late. I've heard warnings from others about the dangers of using regular "Sharpies" on CDs, but the manufacturer on their website say they think it's okay (but do say they haven't done any long term testing).

http://sharpie.com/sanford/consumer/sharpie/home/faqs.jhtml ;jsessionid=3YPCGBCLEQ5SCCQHUB2CF3QKA4QGIJCK?faqcode=1200

I visited a nice local stationary store and asked if they sold markers specifically for CD marking and they mentioned the recent Sharpie ones specifically for CD marking, but at the time they didn't have any in stock. They did check some of their manufacturer data sheets, because they were told the BIC brand markers were okay. After they found the information on some data sheet, I picked up a red and a black BIC marker. My local camera store sells a 3 color package of markers marketed by Dot Line Corp., that say they are CD markable safe. I also found some Staedler ones in a plastic case. So far I've only used the BIC ones, because I didn't have to unwrap those. Just my two cents worth, I hope it was of some use to you.

If you really want to play safe, don't write on the sensitive surface of CD's or DVD's. Just write a serial number or whatever within the inner circle. Then keep a data base. Some DVD's even have a serial number there.

You have no assurance that a marker will not ruin your discs some 10 or 20 years from now. This is the way some libraries use.

I have lost some CD's due to bad markers. They just ceased to function - no possibility of data recovery. Now I only use special markers for CD's (labeled CD-safe), and only write on the clear area next to the engraved number on the CD's.

Hi

I been using Sharpies to label mi cd's since I had a cd burner.

So far I have cd's made in 1996 and still I can read them. I know because I just backed up all my old cd's into dvd's now.

I can say that then they are safe, or at least it has been the case for me

Hope it helps.

Carlos-S said:

If you really want to play safe, don't write on the sensitive
surface of CD's or DVD's. Just write a serial number or whatever
within the inner circle. Then keep a data base. Some DVD's even
have a serial number there.

You have no assurance that a marker will not ruin your discs some
10 or 20 years from now. This is the way some libraries use.

Click to expand...

That sounds like the safest idea yet! I just bought the sharpies for cd's and still was a little bit leary when the website didn't give me a definitely safe response.
thanks
Joe B

I usually never write on my CD's, preferring to write on the slip/jewel case instead. But I figured I'd write on a few, just for the heck of it. I didn't know about the need for dedicated markers, and I found some Stabilo Overhead Projector permanent markers in the drawer. Within days the CD's just wouldn't play properly. None of my unmarked CD's have shown this kind of behaviour. Fortunately, the data was backed up in other places as well - which says something about the importance of multiple copies on different media!

I have been given CD's with writing on them, and they work fine. I assume they have been marked with CD-safe pens. But I'm sure as heck never using those Stabilo's on CD's again!
--
Archiver - Recording the sights and sounds of life