E20 disappointment?... an analogy

Kelly Vann · Oct 29, 2001

I have worked many years in health care food service. Local Health Department officials make periodic routine inspections of your operations. Most times, if they find a problem they usually will bring it to your attention rather courteously and ask you to take care of it. All the while they are taking notes and making a report. Now, six months later they return and find that you have not addressed the specific problem brought to your attention during the previous visit. Guess what happens then... you get SLAMMED big time, that's what! Same goes for this camera. Oly has had nearly an entire year to take into consideration what users, reviewers and professionals have had to say about the shortcomings of the E10. IMO they should be as sensitive to this critique as a Food Service Director would be to the Health Department's exhortations. Since they seem to have "turned a deaf ear" then I feel the shrill complaints from their disgruntled clientel and our honorable reviewer here are completely justified. Regards, Kelly Vann

Brian Mackey · Oct 29, 2001

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Kelly Vann said:
I have worked many years in health care food service. Local Health
Department officials make periodic routine inspections of your
operations. Most times, if they find a problem they usually will
bring it to your attention rather courteously and ask you to take
care of it. All the while they are taking notes and making a
report. Now, six months later they return and find that you have
not addressed the specific problem brought to your attention during
the previous visit. Guess what happens then... you get SLAMMED
big time, that's what! Same goes for this camera. Oly has had
nearly an entire year to take into consideration what users,
reviewers and professionals have had to say about the shortcomings
of the E10. IMO they should be as sensitive to this critique as a
Food Service Director would be to the Health Department's
exhortations. Since they seem to have "turned a deaf ear" then I
feel the shrill complaints from their disgruntled clientel and our
honorable reviewer here are completely justified. Regards, Kelly
Vann

Kelly Vann · Oct 29, 2001

Well not really. I discussed that matter with JaJa and agree that some of the issues may be strictly related to the PreProduction model being used. But again, some of the hardware issues such as review time, buffer size, etc. are not going to miraculously improve when the production units hit the shelves. These are some of the things about which E10 owners have many times expressed a desire to see improved. These are the things I'm talking about as real disappointments. I sure hope the noise and CA really ARE pre-production model problems only. Regards, Kelly

Brian Mackey said:
No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Jim K53618 · Oct 29, 2001

Brian Mackey said:
No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Well taken, but I think what Kelly is trying to say is that none of our concerns have been remedied on the e20, and they cut back in some areas! If Oly did pay attention to some of the feed back on the e10 and cared, it would be seen on the e20. Clearly little thought was given to us, and more thought was given to how to best launch a 5MP version of the e10 with the least amount of cost. Its true we havent had an actual taste of it yet, but the aroma we a getting isn't that appealing : )

Jim K

Brian Mackey said:
Kelly Vann said:

I have worked many years in health care food service. Local Health
Department officials make periodic routine inspections of your
operations. Most times, if they find a problem they usually will
bring it to your attention rather courteously and ask you to take
care of it. All the while they are taking notes and making a
report. Now, six months later they return and find that you have
not addressed the specific problem brought to your attention during
the previous visit. Guess what happens then... you get SLAMMED
big time, that's what! Same goes for this camera. Oly has had
nearly an entire year to take into consideration what users,
reviewers and professionals have had to say about the shortcomings
of the E10. IMO they should be as sensitive to this critique as a
Food Service Director would be to the Health Department's
exhortations. Since they seem to have "turned a deaf ear" then I
feel the shrill complaints from their disgruntled clientel and our
honorable reviewer here are completely justified. Regards, Kelly
Vann

Click to expand...

Brian Mackey · Oct 29, 2001

On that agree, I am disturbed that the noise may be More! but I will know first hand tomorrow..

I am not familier with the CA issues, is this new to the E-20?

Kelly Vann said:
Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Brian Mackey · Oct 29, 2001

I agree, but its not the real deal yet.

I dont think OLY gives 2 cents about what a few hundred people think, they are in for the profit, with us or without us the camera will be
a sucess.

I just hate to see people cancel their orders, then find out the camera is better than the pre production unit, then try to order it again, and then have to wait cause everyone is sold out.. Ack retail

Believe me I say I agree with points both sides of the debate.

Jim K said:
Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Well taken, but I think what Kelly is trying to say is that none of
our concerns have been remedied on the e20, and they cut back in
some areas! If Oly did pay attention to some of the feed back on
the e10 and cared, it would be seen on the e20. Clearly little
thought was given to us, and more thought was given to how to best
launch a 5MP version of the e10 with the least amount of cost. Its
true we havent had an actual taste of it yet, but the aroma we a
getting isn't that appealing : )

Jim K

Jim K53618 said:

Kelly Vann said:

I have worked many years in health care food service. Local Health
Department officials make periodic routine inspections of your
operations. Most times, if they find a problem they usually will
bring it to your attention rather courteously and ask you to take
care of it. All the while they are taking notes and making a
report. Now, six months later they return and find that you have
not addressed the specific problem brought to your attention during
the previous visit. Guess what happens then... you get SLAMMED
big time, that's what! Same goes for this camera. Oly has had
nearly an entire year to take into consideration what users,
reviewers and professionals have had to say about the shortcomings
of the E10. IMO they should be as sensitive to this critique as a
Food Service Director would be to the Health Department's
exhortations. Since they seem to have "turned a deaf ear" then I
feel the shrill complaints from their disgruntled clientel and our
honorable reviewer here are completely justified. Regards, Kelly
Vann

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Kelly Vann · Oct 29, 2001

Brian,

I'm referring specifically to the Tower Bridge picture in the set of samples. The noise is extreme for ISO80 (imho) and there is "purple fringing" along the spires of the bridge, on the seagull and elsewhere. Jono downloaded the picture and printed it out. Says the print-out minimizes the noise, but the chromatic abberation is very evident in the print. I took some shots at the Texas State Fair a few weeks ago on a very bright sunny day. As I was examining them, I noticed just a trace of the purple blooming along highly reflective material (e.g. metal railing, etc.) but remarked to myself how minimal it was and only seems to occur on very bright and reflective objects. I hardly call the spires on that bridge "highly reflective", yet the CA is definitely and strongly there. Again, maybe just 'cause it's the pre-production model. Hope that's all it is. If not, then to me it represents a real retrgression with the E20. Sorry, but call 'em as I sees 'em. Regards, Kelly

Brian Mackey said:
On that agree, I am disturbed that the noise may be More! but I
will know first hand tomorrow..

I am not familier with the CA issues, is this new to the E-20?

Ger Bee · Oct 29, 2001

My answer to this was to buy better - even before the E20 was announced - I've become quite good at interpreting silences from manufacturers.

IMO none of the core issues have been addressed – but I will try the camera and might even trade the E10 but I’d need a fair bit of improvement in performance or my money and the E10 will go on another (but second-hand [this time]) D1.

Kelly Vann said:
I have worked many years in health care food service. cut "turned a deaf ear" then I
feel the shrill complaints from their disgruntled clientel and our
honorable reviewer here are completely justified. Regards, Kelly
Vann

Brian Mackey · Oct 29, 2001

Ouch, I would agree, I remember now that when the E-10 came out lots of folks were talking about the fringing, Well i will be sad if it creeps backwards...

It will be sunny here tomorrow I will take some E-20 pics of some cars bumbers and stuff at all three iso's and post them

Question, I didnt read Phils complete review, did he address the CA issue?

Kelly Vann said:
Brian Mackey said:

On that agree, I am disturbed that the noise may be More! but I
will know first hand tomorrow..

I am not familier with the CA issues, is this new to the E-20?

Click to expand...

Jim K53618 · Oct 29, 2001

Ger Bee said:
IMO none of the core issues have been addressed – but I will try
the camera and might even trade the E10 but I’d need a fair bit of
improvement in performance or my money and the E10 will go on
another (but second-hand [this time]) D1.

Ger Bee,

I was considering the e20 for casual shooting. I don't always feel like lugging 50 pounds of camera gear and my E10 served me well! But I have not seen anything yet about the e20 that would make me want to get it. So I'll just hang on to the e10, unless the e20 does in fact have less noise.

Since you have the d1x, do yourself a BIG favor, get the d1h next instead of another x. If you must sell your e10 make go towards a d1h!!

Jim K

Rudy51002 · Oct 29, 2001

Kelly Vann said:
Well not really. I discussed that matter with JaJa and agree that
some of the issues may be strictly related to the PreProduction
model being used. But again, some of the hardware issues such as
review time, buffer size, etc. are not going to miraculously
improve when the production units hit the shelves. These are some
of the things about which E10 owners have many times expressed a
desire to see improved. These are the things I'm talking about as
real disappointments. I sure hope the noise and CA really ARE
pre-production model problems only. Regards, Kelly
I have had the E10 for 10 months. love it I will wate for JaJas report

on the E 20
Rudy

Member said:
Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?
I > > Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Robert58536 · Oct 29, 2001

Question........

Lets look at the Pre-production model, firmware.

I just got of the phone with Oly. I asked them with which firmware version the E-20 were shipping with. After being on hold for 6-7 minutes, the support individual came back on the line and said, "We can"t give out that information, they are not due to ship TILL OCT 30th".

Now, how far back or how long ago should Oly have started shipping units to distribution centers for them them to get them to the retail stores in time for there Oct 30th availability?

How long ago did Oly have to start staging cameras (in volume) to meat supply and demand for all the retailers?

If I were to look at the time line my best guess would be that they should have rolled of the production line 3-4 weeks(or more) ago. That means that the firmware is about a month or so old.

As of Oct 10th Phil did not have a camera for review.

How long does it take Phil to do a review? A week or so. So the camera that phil has has either the same firmware or a later version than the production units. So the units for the public can't be any better than the camera that phil used for his Review. So we can't expect a bigger, better, faster camera than what Phil based his review on, unless I am totally wrong with the time line.

my 2ct's

Kelly Vann said:
Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Brian Mackey · Oct 29, 2001

I think I might call back and talk to another rep, my camera shipped this morning! So hes not really up on whats happening!

Robert said:
Lets look at the Pre-production model, firmware.

I just got of the phone with Oly. I asked them with which firmware
version the E-20 were shipping with. After being on hold for 6-7
minutes, the support individual came back on the line and said, "We
can"t give out that information, they are not due to ship TILL OCT
30th".

Now, how far back or how long ago should Oly have started shipping
units to distribution centers for them them to get them to the
retail stores in time for there Oct 30th availability?

How long ago did Oly have to start staging cameras (in volume) to
meat supply and demand for all the retailers?

If I were to look at the time line my best guess would be that they
should have rolled of the production line 3-4 weeks(or more) ago.
That means that the firmware is about a month or so old.

As of Oct 10th Phil did not have a camera for review.

How long does it take Phil to do a review? A week or so. So the
camera that phil has has either the same firmware or a later
version than the production units. So the units for the public
can't be any better than the camera that phil used for his Review.
So we can't expect a bigger, better, faster camera than what Phil
based his review on, unless I am totally wrong with the time line.

my 2ct's

Kelly Vann said:

Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Robert58536 · Oct 29, 2001

Brian,

Where did you order your camera from?

Thanks

Bob

Brian Mackey said:
Robert said:

Lets look at the Pre-production model, firmware.

I just got of the phone with Oly. I asked them with which firmware
version the E-20 were shipping with. After being on hold for 6-7
minutes, the support individual came back on the line and said, "We
can"t give out that information, they are not due to ship TILL OCT
30th".

Now, how far back or how long ago should Oly have started shipping
units to distribution centers for them them to get them to the
retail stores in time for there Oct 30th availability?

How long ago did Oly have to start staging cameras (in volume) to
meat supply and demand for all the retailers?

If I were to look at the time line my best guess would be that they
should have rolled of the production line 3-4 weeks(or more) ago.
That means that the firmware is about a month or so old.

As of Oct 10th Phil did not have a camera for review.

How long does it take Phil to do a review? A week or so. So the
camera that phil has has either the same firmware or a later
version than the production units. So the units for the public
can't be any better than the camera that phil used for his Review.
So we can't expect a bigger, better, faster camera than what Phil
based his review on, unless I am totally wrong with the time line.

my 2ct's

Kelly Vann said:

Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

randall lewter · Oct 29, 2001

Jim K said:
Ger Bee said:

IMO none of the core issues have been addressed – but I will try
the camera and might even trade the E10 but I’d need a fair bit of
improvement in performance or my money and the E10 will go on
another (but second-hand [this time]) D1.

Click to expand...

Ger Bee,

I was considering the e20 for casual shooting. I don't always feel
like lugging 50 pounds of camera gear and my E10 served me well!
But I have not seen anything yet about the e20 that would make me
want to get it. So I'll just hang on to the e10, unless the e20
does in fact have less noise.

Since you have the d1x, do yourself a BIG favor, get the d1h next
instead of another x. If you must sell your e10 make go towards a
d1h!!

Jim K

Maybe I have been lucky or my shooting style is diffent, mostly portraits some general photography, but have found the E10 to be a great tool. The areas many found limiting were things I'm use to with medium format (slower shutter speeds, slower shooting) the pluses great lens, leaf shutter, fit my needs better then the D30. I was ready to purchase a 2nd E10 for backup when the E20 was announced, I think it is nice upgrade, not major but nice. What would have moved me Canon or a medium format digital back would have been a major change and complete new model or body. I think this type of upgrade shows that Olympus will stay with the E cmaeras for a while. I used the OM 35's for 15 years till I had to go autofocus. Olympus has had the same basic camera system since 1985 and is still excellent even without autofocus. I sold my OM3 for more then I paid for it after 10 years.
A disappointment for some is a plus for others.

Randall

Brian Mackey · Oct 29, 2001

Norman camera

Robert said:
Where did you order your camera from?

Thanks

Bob

Brian Mackey said:

Robert said:

Lets look at the Pre-production model, firmware.

I just got of the phone with Oly. I asked them with which firmware
version the E-20 were shipping with. After being on hold for 6-7
minutes, the support individual came back on the line and said, "We
can"t give out that information, they are not due to ship TILL OCT
30th".

Now, how far back or how long ago should Oly have started shipping
units to distribution centers for them them to get them to the
retail stores in time for there Oct 30th availability?

How long ago did Oly have to start staging cameras (in volume) to
meat supply and demand for all the retailers?

If I were to look at the time line my best guess would be that they
should have rolled of the production line 3-4 weeks(or more) ago.
That means that the firmware is about a month or so old.

As of Oct 10th Phil did not have a camera for review.

How long does it take Phil to do a review? A week or so. So the
camera that phil has has either the same firmware or a later
version than the production units. So the units for the public
can't be any better than the camera that phil used for his Review.
So we can't expect a bigger, better, faster camera than what Phil
based his review on, unless I am totally wrong with the time line.

my 2ct's

Kelly Vann said:

Brian Mackey said:

No flame intended but,

Isn't that like complaining about the recipe, before the meal has
been released?

Some people have to "taste/test" it for themselves to say yay or
nay! Since so many people base their buying decisions on what this
forum has to say, I think we should as Jaja stated, wait for the
field, taste test

just my 2 cents..

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frank B · Oct 29, 2001

I'm in total agreement.

Frank B

Kelly Vann said:
I have worked many years in health care food service. Local Health
Department officials make periodic routine inspections of your
operations. Most times, if they find a problem they usually will
bring it to your attention rather courteously and ask you to take
care of it. All the while they are taking notes and making a
report. Now, six months later they return and find that you have
not addressed the specific problem brought to your attention during
the previous visit. Guess what happens then... you get SLAMMED
big time, that's what! Same goes for this camera. Oly has had
nearly an entire year to take into consideration what users,
reviewers and professionals have had to say about the shortcomings
of the E10. IMO they should be as sensitive to this critique as a
Food Service Director would be to the Health Department's
exhortations. Since they seem to have "turned a deaf ear" then I
feel the shrill complaints from their disgruntled clientel and our
honorable reviewer here are completely justified. Regards, Kelly
Vann

Blokey Bloggs · Oct 29, 2001

So you have bought the E20 blind? No reviews to judge by? Do you not think that was premature? Can you return it? Not a very 'realistic' thing to do... ;-)

Blokey

Kelly Vann · Oct 29, 2001

But Brian, is this not TYPICAL blather coming from Oly tech reps? You might as well be asking Att. Gen. Ashcroft where he's getting his information and what does it mean. Really!!! KV

Brian Mackey said:
I think I might call back and talk to another rep, my camera
shipped this morning! So hes not really up on whats happening!

Andrew Grant27981 · Oct 29, 2001

Given that the E20 has the same size sensor and lens as the E10 but about 25% more pixels, and increase in noise and purple fringing is not surpising. Particularly as the electronics didn't change much.

OTOH, while at $1800 it is a lttle expensive, it does have significant advantages over the D7 and 707. I they lower the price to say $1400 to $1500, it would be worthwhile.

Brian Mackey said:
It will be sunny here tomorrow I will take some E-20 pics of some
cars bumbers and stuff at all three iso's and post them

Question, I didnt read Phils complete review, did he address the CA
issue?

Kelly Vann said:

Brian Mackey said:

On that agree, I am disturbed that the noise may be More! but I
will know first hand tomorrow..

I am not familier with the CA issues, is this new to the E-20?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

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