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SB600: Remote Trigger w/ D70s??

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notrix

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Hi,

I'm looking at the either the SB600 or SB800 for a portable studio I need to create. I understand they use a wireless technology for remote firing.

My question:

What fires them? Is it just a peanut type slave that needs another flash of light to trigger;

or

Some sort of infrared or radio signal? This would be preferable as it looks like I'm going to need a stronger sidelight and any flash inline with the lens will ruin the effect.

Thanks,

N
 
In a multi-flash wireless setup there is a master unit and you can have several remote units.

The master unit can be:
  • D70/D70S built in flash
  • D200 built-in flash
  • SB800 speedlight
  • SU800 master flash controller
The remote unit can be:
  • SB800 speedlight
  • SB600 speedlight
  • SB-R200 speedlight
The master unit can either contribute to the exposure or not, however some master units can and some cannot.
  • D70/D70S cannot contribute to the exposure of the scene when used as master controllers.
  • SU800 cannot contribute to the exposure of the scene when used as master controller.
  • D200 built-in flash can contribute to the exposure when used as master controller.
  • SB-800 speedlight can contribute to the exposure when used as master controller.
Theoretically you can have unlimited number of remote units firing off of a single master unit. These remote units can be grouped into groups and have different flash power assigned to each group (like you can set that the flash on the left gives more power than the flash on the right so the left one is your main while the right one is your fill flash).

The number of groups you can have depends on your master unit.

-D70/D70S can only control one group (group A on channel 3) It means all remote flash units will fire at the same power. To create light ratios you would have to move one flash further than the other from the subject.

-D200 buuilt in flash can control two groups (group A,B on either channel 1 through 4) plus control its own power (M for Master group). Channels are only important if you are shooting with several others in the same area so you can avoid triggering each others remote flashes.
  • SB-800 can control 3 groups (group A,B,C on either channel 1 through 4) plus it's own power (group M)
  • SU-800 can control 3 groups (group A,B,C on either channel 1 through 4)
If I were you I'd probably buy an SB-800 and an SC-28 remote chord so you can have it as the master mounted off camera and get one or two SB-600 units as remotes. That way you can have 3 flash units in 3 groups with total control on light.

I personally use two SB-800s and I just sold my 3rd one and bought a R1C1 light system instead.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
 
Just wanted to take the time to say thank you for such a thorough and helpful reply. I'm sure there a lots of browsers/perusers like me who don't post much, but I'm also sure that even though there aren't many posts in this thread, you've helped an awful lot of people who had a similar question.

Nick
 
If you use your SB600 / 800 in SU 4 mode it is a self contained unit triggered by another flash gun. There is no longer any intelligent signaling between units.

In this case, all flash units being triggered or fired can contribute to the shot, but using the camera on manual and either trial and error (histogram and peak whites display) or use of a dediacted flash meter will be needed to set exposure.

Think of this mode as like using studio heads where you can independantly set the output levels of each unit but fire them as slaves from one master flash.

I use my SB800 in both CLS and SU 4 modes and use the D70 flash to trigger other speedlights and strobes.

Hope this helps.
--
Bill Ellingford
Forest of Dean, UK
 
Well this work with all Nikon Speedlights..or just some models?. I have an Sb-600 and also two older speedlights the Sb-23 and Sb-20. So if I read what you are saying correctly using SU 4 then commander mode on camera and flash..it will fire the slaves from the D-70 inboard flash?
--
Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes
Oscar Wilde
 
If you set any speed light to SU 4 mode, this sets its light trigger to activate from a single flash.

Armed with this knowledge, you can set the D70 to trigger all of the slaves (provided the trigger windows get enough light).

You need to use the D70 flash manually as pre-flashes will also fire the slave speedlights but there are devices on the web that can count pre-flashes and fire after x amount (i.e. you can ignore the flashes until x amount have been counted). Even so, the slave flash exposure will not be calculted during the preflashes in this case. Better If you treat it as a manual system, great results can be achieved.

I use my D70 flash to trigger both my SB800 in SU4 plus an old hammerhead flash with an opto trigger fitted and a Cobra flash with Opto trigger fitted. You either adjust the power levels of each flash or adjust the distances from subject to get the desired exposure. Use the Histogram to check the light nergy doesn't fall off until nearing the RHS of the display and then flip to peak whites display to see if any areas are flashing. This will allow you to set exposure if you do not have a flash meter.

This gives me up to 4 flash guns to use. I am about to buy some 400j (w/s) studio heads and will use these in a similar fashion.

Note: Some early speed lights do not have built-in remote trigger, these can only be used by fitting a opto trigger adapter.
--
Bill Ellingford
Forest of Dean, UK
 
Bill E(UK) said:
Note: Some early speed lights do not have built-in remote trigger,
these can only be used by fitting a opto trigger adapter.
Click to expand...
The SB600 is not exactly early speed light yet it is incapable of being used in SU-4 mode without the purchase of some remote slave adapter.

Bottom line is, from Nikon's current line of flash units only the SB-800 is capable of becoming an SU-4 slave others will need a slave adapter. the SB-800 is capable of two SU-4 modes, one is manual; it will start firing at a predetermined power setting dialed in on the SB800, the other is automatic and it will start firing when the other flash fires and stop firing when the other flash stops.

Note that none of these settings are part of the new Nikon Creative Lighting System and unless you have to couple your gear with old stuff or studio strobes, I would not use it. The only benefit of SU-4 mode is the fact that there are no pre-flashes, so people who tend to blink with the iTTL metering might not blink this way.
--
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
 
NickMJr said:
Good explaination except the D70 is not considered Master its only
Commander. Also you can have the D70 onboard contribute in the
exposure when the flash is in i-TTL mode and your SB-800 is in SU-4
mode.
Click to expand...
As soon as you change your SB-800 or any other flash into SU-4 mode you just stepped back into medieval times with manual flash control. I would not consider this to be an option even if it means that the built in D70 flash can contribute with its measly power to the exposure of the scene.

But for the sake of completeness, yes it is possible to use the built-in flash's power to contribute but only if your other flash units are SB-800s or other strobes with opto triggering in SU-4 mode. (the SB600 is no such flash, you need an external SU-4 module to make it so, the SB-R200s are not capable of SU-4 in any way or form, period).

Using the great/awesome/superb Nikon CLS it is not possible to use the D70's built-in flash to contribute to the scene's exposure, period. Using any other mode (such as SU-4) is a waste if all you have are Nikon speedlights.
NickMJr said:
http://nickmjr.smugmug.com/
Nick M
Click to expand...
--
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
 
Frank C. said:
Member said:
  • SB-800 speedlight can contribute to the exposure when used as
master controller.
Click to expand...
you have the option of turning it on or off or does it always
contribute? thx.
Click to expand...
You have the option to set the Master SB800 to contribute or not. You can set it to TTL (with optional compensation) or Manual as well.
--
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
 
If you have an SU-800 and all you trigger with it are SB-800 units you can also do remote repeat flash (a strobe effect). However this feature is only available if all your remote units are SB-800s.

--
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
 
GTakacs said:
Frank C. said:
GTakacs said:
  • SB-800 speedlight can contribute to the exposure when used as
master controller.
Click to expand...
you have the option of turning it on or off or does it always
contribute? thx.
Click to expand...
You have the option to set the Master SB800 to contribute or not.
You can set it to TTL (with optional compensation) or Manual as
well.
Click to expand...
sorry to be so dense, but could I manually vary the flash
output on the commander SB-800 mounted on the D70/D50
knowing the flashes triggered wirelessly will ajust themselves
to give proper exposure using i-TTL? thx again
 
Frank C. said:
GTakacs said:
Frank C. said:
Member said:
  • SB-800 speedlight can contribute to the exposure when used as
master controller.
Click to expand...
you have the option of turning it on or off or does it always
contribute? thx.
Click to expand...
You have the option to set the Master SB800 to contribute or not.
You can set it to TTL (with optional compensation) or Manual as
well.
Click to expand...
sorry to be so dense, but could I manually vary the flash
output on the commander SB-800 mounted on the D70/D50
knowing the flashes triggered wirelessly will ajust themselves
to give proper exposure using i-TTL? thx again
Click to expand...
It is possible to have the Master Flash flash mode set to cancel "---" and still have the pre-flashes that control the Remote units. You can also have the Master set to manual at 1/128th.
http://nickmjr.smugmug.com/
Nick M
 
Frank, if you mean set a fixed manual output (say 1/4 power) from an SB800 attached to the camera hot shoe but have iTTL from the other gun(s), my experience has been that iTTL cannot reliably be combined with manual guns: either there are synchronisation issues or somehow the flash from the manual gun interferes with the exposure (generating underexposure). And this is despite FV locking and all the rest of it.

I believe all the iTTL preflashing (there is a total of 5 preflashes) take place in the first 600 milliseconds after pressing the shutter release. That gave me the idea to build my own optical slave trigger initiated on the first preflash but then imposing a 600 millisecond delay before firing the slave(s). The theory being that all the iTTL will be over by the time the additional guns fire.

The prototype is nearly finished, here it is:



All that said and done, though, I think one can go a long way with the mediaeval technique of calculating manual flash exposures:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=16755119

David
Frank C. said:
sorry to be so dense, but could I manually vary the flash
output on the commander SB-800 mounted on the D70/D50
knowing the flashes triggered wirelessly will ajust themselves
to give proper exposure using i-TTL?
Click to expand...
 
If you were to put a nikon speedlight on a Su-4..use an Sb-600 in remote mode of camera..would the onboard flash on the D-70 fire the Su-4 and its attached flash as well as the Sb-600?- All in manual of course. Anyone ever tried the SU-4 with a -70?
David
Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes
Oscar Wilde
 
It would work, but the SU-4 slave would be triggered prematurely by the pre-flash. If it's on a low power setting it should still have enough charge left for the main exposure. Otherwise you'd need to use FV Lock to fire the pre-flash early and give the slave flash time to recover.
stdavid said:
If you were to put a nikon speedlight on a Su-4..use an Sb-600 in
remote mode of camera..would the onboard flash on the D-70 fire the
Su-4 and its attached flash as well as the Sb-600?- All in manual
of course. Anyone ever tried the SU-4 with a -70?
David
Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes
Oscar Wilde
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, I didn't know the SB600 would not support SU4 mode.

I do think this is a worthwhile mode as many people do have a mix of old and new strobes and, all studio strobes are non-CLS but do work in SU4 mode.

I was simply trying to show that (if you have the SB800) this is still a useful feature and does allow you to use old (and studio) strobes mixed.
--
Bill Ellingford
Forest of Dean, UK
 
David Lal said:
Frank, if you mean set a fixed manual output (say 1/4 power) from
an SB800 attached to the camera hot shoe but have iTTL from the
other gun(s), my experience has been that iTTL cannot reliably be
combined with manual guns: either there are synchronisation issues
or somehow the flash from the manual gun interferes with the
exposure (generating underexposure). And this is despite FV locking
and all the rest of it.
Click to expand...
I'm just thinking, since the D50 does not have Commander
mode built into its onboard flash you pretty much have to run
out and get a SB-800 to get wireless going, couple
that with at least an additional SB-600 or SB-800 mounted off
the camera and you've laid out some serious $$$. Now since the
SB-800 is a formidable flash on its own it would be nice for it
to contribute to exposure in a way you can control
( ie 1/64 power, diffuser, etc... ) and have the magic of
ttl and Nikon's CLS work for you at the same time. Is this
a possibilty or is the commander SB-800 restricted to act as
a wireless trigger only?
 
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