Carl Zeiss Slips into Irrelevance

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

Today is truly a sad one for fans of Carl Zeiss, as it marks the end of their relevance to photographers. It may even seem that the Japanese have finally won the optics war but I'll bet that the truth is that the engineers at Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Pentax are saddest of all. Really, what is the use of introducing 4 re-bodied RTS lenses to cater to a Nikon film market which is already dead by Nikon's own admission? The (assumed) Distagon is an insult to working Nikon photographers who NEED a superior wideangle design for their DX format cameras, the Makro Planar offers NOTHING over Nikon's supreme Micro-Nikkors, likewise the 85. The 50/1.4 WILL make a fine DX portrait lens, save for the fact that the vast majority of people who might buy it are not going to be able to use it outsde a studio. And at what cost?

These ZF lenses mark the passing out CZ out of the photography industry into the heritage industry, and that's a sad end for a company that's done such an enormous amount of pioneering work in optics.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

echelon2004 · Jan 18, 2006

Woldn't it be possible to think of it that the only Nikon film camera that will remain in Europe, the F6, possibly the best SLR for 35mm film ever made, now can be paired with some ot the best lenses ever designed?

How is that a bad thing?
--
Anders

http://www.teamexcalibur.se
http://www.teamexcalibur.se/excalibursida4.html
http://www.teamexcalibur.se/excalibursida4a.html

event photography and photo journalism

JKirbs · Jan 18, 2006

from the Zeiss releases:

CLN: Will we see more ZF lenses at Photokina in September?
Dr. Scherle: You bet! A handful.

if you had said they haven't made any immediate relevant impact on what we shoot, then for sure. I wanrt my 15 and 21 ZF nooooooowww!

JKirbs · Jan 18, 2006

echelon2004 said:
Woldn't it be possible to think of it that the only Nikon film
camera that will remain in Europe, the F6, possibly the best SLR
for 35mm film ever made, now can be paired with some ot the best
lenses ever designed?

How is that a bad thing?
--
Anders

It might be very good thing for my scanning company this summer LOL!

Yeah, and September gives Nikon 8 months to announce a D3X full frame, he he, says me with a crocodile tear in the eye that such wild speculation means something to me

kirbs

Robert Bedwell · Jan 18, 2006

For those that have used Zeiss, Leica and Schneider lenses in the past I frankly welcome the availability of Zeiss lenses to be used on Nikon cameras. I can't believe that it's not a step up from Tamron/Sigma/Tokina and may be an improvement on Nikon glass as well. I don't understand your apprehension.

pentaxowner · Jan 18, 2006

echelon2004 said:
Woldn't it be possible to think of it that the only Nikon film
camera that will remain in Europe, the F6, possibly the best SLR
for 35mm film ever made, now can be paired with some ot the best
lenses ever designed?

How is that a bad thing?

I probably would be the most expensive combo around

echelon2004 said:
--
Anders

http://www.teamexcalibur.se
http://www.teamexcalibur.se/excalibursida4.html
http://www.teamexcalibur.se/excalibursida4a.html

event photography and photo journalism

--
Fero Novak, London

JKirbs · Jan 18, 2006

dsowner said:
echelon2004 said:

Woldn't it be possible to think of it that the only Nikon film
camera that will remain in Europe, the F6, possibly the best SLR
for 35mm film ever made, now can be paired with some ot the best
lenses ever designed?

How is that a bad thing?

Click to expand...

I probably would be the most expensive combo around

Possibly, but it frightens me how much cheaper that is than equivalently positioned end DSLRS. I feel film lust again, just a bit

rainer_g · Jan 18, 2006

I totally agree with the starter of this thread.
We're in the DX age now, meaning we need lenses optimized for that

sensor size and no make-over of some vintage MF lenses optimized for film cameras, no matter how good they are or were.

What we need today is their translations to the digital world, like high-quality WA- DX-primes in the 12-15mm range and some AF-S versions of the mostly older AF or AI-S Tele-Nikkors.
If Zeiss wants to get a significant market share with their lenses, why not
make a real progress and include AF and SWM into their designs?

harry · Jan 18, 2006

Carl Zeiss would not make such a big blunter if they didn't see what's coming. With the phasing out of film SLRs, there WILL be a need for full frame DSLRs. Nikon has openly hinted that a fullframe DSLR is in the work, so the timing couldn't be better for Zeiss to introduce the support for other brands.

I would also second guess that this would allow Zeiss to migrate into the DX line of lenses in the future. Why not start with the sure bet and proven quality line of lenses then how far they would go?

Lexus being the No.1 luxury brand in the U.S. does not drive out Porsche or BMW. For people who could afford Porsche (or Zeiss, for that matter), the name brand WITH the quality associated with the name, would keep Zeiss in the business for years to come.

So now, relax, let the market bloom and everybody be happy (more choices, that is!)

--
Harry

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

echelon2004 said:
Woldn't it be possible to think of it that the only Nikon film
camera that will remain in Europe, the F6, possibly the best SLR
for 35mm film ever made, now can be paired with some ot the best
lenses ever designed?

Is that any kind of advance over using a 10 year old Contax RTS III and those same lenses?

echelon2004 said:
How is that a bad thing?

It's bad because it proves that Zeiss have given up on the real market and are concentrating on the rich dentists that buy the things that Leica sell. At least Leica are ATTEMPTING to remain relevant with their DMR and alleged Digital M.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

JKirbs said:
from the Zeiss releases:

CLN: Will we see more ZF lenses at Photokina in September?
Dr. Scherle: You bet! A handful.

if you had said they haven't made any immediate relevant impact on
what we shoot, then for sure. I wanrt my 15 and 21 ZF nooooooowww!

Why are you not already using Contax RTS, then?

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

Robert Bedwell said:
For those that have used Zeiss, Leica and Schneider lenses in the
past I frankly welcome the availability of Zeiss lenses to be used
on Nikon cameras. I can't believe that it's not a step up from
Tamron/Sigma/Tokina and may be an improvement on Nikon glass as
well. I don't understand your apprehension.

I'm not apprehensive. Zeiss has given up. Rich Nikon users will now be able to use old Contax RTS designs on their old Nikon film bodies. I can tell you for nothing that my Makro Planar 60 IS NOT AS SHARP as my Olympus ZD 50/2. Unless sticking a shiny ring on the front of that lens does something amazing to its performace (other than generating flare), I don't expect that to change. My Planar 50/1.7 isn't as sharp as my old Nikkor 50/1.8 AIS either, despite having more attractive boke.

The Japanese move forward, Zeiss stagnates.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

Emil Varadi · Jan 18, 2006

JKirbs said:
dsowner wrote:

I feel film lust again, just a bit

Don't worry, it will go away quickly...

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

harry said:
Carl Zeiss would not make such a big blunter if they didn't see
what's coming. With the phasing out of film SLRs, there WILL be a
need for full frame DSLRs.

I don't know if you've noticed, but Canon already sells TWO such cameras of conspicuously high performance. People who need them already have them.

Member said:
Nikon has openly hinted that a
fullframe DSLR is in the work, so the timing couldn't be better for
Zeiss to introduce the support for other brands.

Openly hinted?

Member said:
I would also second guess that this would allow Zeiss to migrate
into the DX line of lenses in the future. Why not start with the
sure bet and proven quality line of lenses then how far they would
go?

A sure bet? Didn't you notice Contax disappearing without trace?

Member said:
Lexus being the No.1 luxury brand in the U.S. does not drive out
Porsche or BMW. For people who could afford Porsche (or Zeiss, for
that matter), the name brand WITH the quality associated with the
name, would keep Zeiss in the business for years to come.

A catastrophically poor analogy. Porsche are moving forward - who introduced ceramic brake technology to the market?

Member said:
So now, relax, let the market bloom and everybody be happy (more
choices, that is!)

Not my point at all - people can buy whatever they want with their money - I'm sad about the demise of Carl Zeiss as a progressive optician.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

Max Fun · Jan 18, 2006

... is sometimes not something that is 'caught' up in the normal term. Frankly speaking, Japanese lens designers are probably not any worse than the German ones. One of the reasons that the German lenses are so good, is because they are not afraid to make expensive lenses. Lens design is all about compromises. Nikon/Canon decided where they draw the line in terms of budget and make the best lens they can. Leica/Zeiss have higher cut offs, so their lenses are generally better. Some of Leica/Zeiss lenses were designed in the 70s or 80s, and they are still better than Canon/Nikon equivalents, for example the Leica 100mm Macro Elmarit.

I liked my RTS II gear, but what I'm excited about is whether they'll bring their N lenses into manual mounts as well, especially the 17-35mm. Even the 85mm was updated for the N line.

--
The Secret to Life is... Calcium!!
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Emil Varadi · Jan 18, 2006

rainer_g said:
I totally agree with the starter of this thread.
We're in the DX age now, meaning we need lenses optimized for that
sensor size and no make-over of some vintage MF lenses optimized
for film cameras, no matter how good they are or were.
What we need today is their translations to the digital world, like
high-quality WA- DX-primes in the 12-15mm range and some AF-S
versions of the mostly older AF or AI-S Tele-Nikkors.
If Zeiss wants to get a significant market share with their lenses,
why not
make a real progress and include AF and SWM into their designs?

I agree with the starter, just like you.

However, I have a very strong feeling that they are simply not aiming for a significant market share. I don't understand Zeiss...

Also, I feel that this is not a DX vs FF problem, but the lack of will to follow main technological trends in the industry like AFS, VR...

It is very similar to what had happened in the audio industry, where some manufacturers were still coming out with new turntables, while the whole world was rushing towards digital sound...

It's some sort of a high-nosed German techno attitude to show the world what technological summits they can conquer, but they miss the market as key factor. Very nice. Applause. And now give us AF!

The Japanese understand this this much better.

Lotus M50 · Jan 18, 2006

Lord Coe said:
harry said:

Carl Zeiss would not make such a big blunter if they didn't see
what's coming. With the phasing out of film SLRs, there WILL be a
need for full frame DSLRs.

Click to expand...

I don't know if you've noticed, but Canon already sells TWO such
cameras of conspicuously high performance. People who need them
already have them.

So there is clearly room for a competitor or 2...

Lord Coe said:
Lord Coe said:

I would also second guess that this would allow Zeiss to migrate
into the DX line of lenses in the future. Why not start with the
sure bet and proven quality line of lenses then how far they would
go?

Click to expand...

A sure bet? Didn't you notice Contax disappearing without trace?

I would not be surprised if we see it re-emerge before long. Zeiss has publically stated that they are working on it.

Lord Coe said:
Lord Coe said:

Lexus being the No.1 luxury brand in the U.S. does not drive out
Porsche or BMW. For people who could afford Porsche (or Zeiss, for
that matter), the name brand WITH the quality associated with the
name, would keep Zeiss in the business for years to come.

Click to expand...

A catastrophically poor analogy. Porsche are moving forward - who
introduced ceramic brake technology to the market?

So what? Nikon and Canon are not without their mis-steps

Lord Coe said:
Lord Coe said:

So now, relax, let the market bloom and everybody be happy (more
choices, that is!)

Click to expand...

Not my point at all - people can buy whatever they want with their
money - I'm sad about the demise of Carl Zeiss as a progressive
optician.

An "optician"? An optician is someone who fit and dispenses glasses (reads and fills prescriptions from ophthalmologists or optometrists) -- Zeiss is hardly an "optician". Hoever, they are clearly still "progressive" and are still on the leading edge of lens design. For example, the "digi-prime" lenses for cine cameras, the ZM lenses, the new AF lenses for Sinar, The Contax N lenses STILL outperform comparable lenses from ANY other manufacturer, and the new ZF (and ZS) lenses -- as Zeiss has suggested -- will not just be copies of older C/Y Contax lenses z(still better than almost anything out there) but uddated versions that will indeed outperform anything from Nikon (or Canon)

Finally, state og the art optical design has nothing to do with lens electronics. Not everyone needs or want AF (although it is handy from time to time). These lenses will give you supreme optical performance on virtually any camera available today -- tghey may bypass modern lens convenience features but not optical quality. You may be skeptical, but the proof will be in the eating -- you will change your tune when the lenses appear.

BTW, the Contax 60mm/f2.8 Makro was Zeiss' budget makro lens -- even still it performed better than virtually anything else (and "sharpness" is but one aspect of performance). It is however a good 20 years old -- it is possible that a new lens might be "sharper" in some way (although I doubt the 50mm Oly lens is overall and it would be hard to really make that judgement on a 5 or 8 mp Oly camera). There certainly will be a new/updated Makro design for the ZF's (from the pictures it looks to be a fast f2.0 -- so it is clearly NOT the same as the old 60mm/f2.8 lens). Zeiss' other recent Makro lenses are the best in their classess (100mm/2.8 Makro Sonnar for the N, and the 120 f4/0 for the 645). There is every reason to believe that the Makro they produce for the ZF line will be just as good. Zeiss wouldn't do it any other way.

JKirbs · Jan 18, 2006

Lord Coe said:
JKirbs wrote:

snip -

Lord Coe said:
Lord Coe said:

if you had said they haven't made any immediate relevant impact on
what we shoot, then for sure. I wanrt my 15 and 21 ZF nooooooowww!

Click to expand...

Why are you not already using Contax RTS, then?

Erm, totally digital workflow . . . . Doh!

For fun and pleasure, i have thought about a RTS of late, but that's a different story.

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

Emil Varadi said:
I agree with the starter, just like you.
However, I have a very strong feeling that they are simply not
aiming for a significant market share. I don't understand Zeiss...

I just think that the engineers aren't leading the company, unlike Canon.

Emil Varadi said:
Also, I feel that this is not a DX vs FF problem, but the lack of
will to follow main technological trends in the industry like AFS,
VR...

It is very similar to what had happened in the audio industry,
where some manufacturers were still coming out with new turntables,
while the whole world was rushing towards digital sound...

It's some sort of a high-nosed German techno attitude to show the
world what technological summits they can conquer, but they miss
the market as key factor. Very nice. Applause. And now give us AF!

Quite. What REALLY improves image quality? Is it 5% more modulation at 64cycles/mm or is it accurate focus? Is it a beautifully damped focus ring or is it a VR system that effectively tames handshake?

I am a Zeiss fan. I use their superb Victory binos and have a decent Contax RTS outfit (that I no longer use). I even have some fantastic Zeiss aviation sunglasses. I want to see Zeiss breaking new groung in optics, not punting expensive trinkets to retired doctors and dentists.

Emil Varadi said:
The Japanese understand this this much better.

Agreed. They are still interested in technological progress. Who developed the DO lens?

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

Lord Coe · Jan 18, 2006

JKirbs said:
Lord Coe said:

JKirbs wrote:

Click to expand...

snip -

JKirbs said:

JKirbs said:

if you had said they haven't made any immediate relevant impact on
what we shoot, then for sure. I wanrt my 15 and 21 ZF nooooooowww!

Click to expand...

Why are you not already using Contax RTS, then?

Click to expand...

Erm, totally digital workflow . . . . Doh!

With a 24x36 Zeiss lens? So you must be using an EOS 1Ds, Ds2, 5D, N1 Digital or Kodak SLR?

You ARE aware that the RTS lenses are adaptable to Canon, Olympus and other DSLRs I assume?

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.

Carl Zeiss Slips into Irrelevance

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