"6MP class" resolution with CP5000

Michal Urban

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Looking at the specs of various digital cameras I realized that 4:3 aspect ratio 5MP picture of CP5000 actually has the same height ( 2000 pixels) as the 3:2 aspect 6MP frame of say D1x or DCS760.

Thus, since most of (my) pictures end up printed in 8 x 10 inch format anyway, we are finally getting the same "essential" resolution as the "slightly" more expensive pro cameras, conveniently "pre-cropped" for printing... ;-)

Not too bad, eh?--Michal Urban
 
Except that no consumer grade 5mp digital camera will be capable of the resolution of a 6mp professional D-SLR.
Looking at the specs of various digital cameras I realized that 4:3
aspect ratio 5MP picture of CP5000 actually has the same height
( 2000 pixels) as the 3:2 aspect 6MP frame of say D1x or DCS760.

Thus, since most of (my) pictures end up printed in 8 x 10 inch
format anyway, we are finally getting the same "essential"
resolution as the "slightly" more expensive pro cameras,
conveniently "pre-cropped" for printing... ;-)

Not too bad, eh?
--
Michal Urban
 
Yes and no, but mostly because:

a. quality (and cost) of the sensors is far higher than the mass produced 5 mp units
b. individual calibration and testing of each sensor in the camera
c. pixel size is much larger (more sensitive, better s/n ratio)
d. higher quality 'back end' components
e. faster and more sophisticated DSP's to complete the image processing
Except that no consumer grade 5mp digital camera will be capable of
the resolution of a 6mp professional D-SLR.
Does that have a lot to do with the quality of the lens?
 
Phil,

Is that statement based on seeing production model output or simply an educated guess based on previous experience?

Tony
Except that no consumer grade 5mp digital camera will be capable of
the resolution of a 6mp professional D-SLR.
 
Well I would hope that a 5-7000.00 dollar camera would produce better results than a 1000.00 camera. You would have to expect it. You get what you pay for in life. Not saying 5 mp consumer grade doesn't produce great pics, just that the Pro cameras are better. Like buying a Volkswagon and comparing it to a Mercedes..
Is that statement based on seeing production model output or simply
an educated guess based on previous experience?

Tony
Except that no consumer grade 5mp digital camera will be capable of
the resolution of a 6mp professional D-SLR.
 
Don't think so. 4:3 is a ratio of 1.33 to 1, 10x8 is a ratio of 1.25 to 1, although it is better then ratio of 1.5 to 1 from the D1x. So more usable pixels for your money with the CP5000
Looking at the specs of various digital cameras I realized that 4:3
aspect ratio 5MP picture of CP5000 actually has the same height
( 2000 pixels) as the 3:2 aspect 6MP frame of say D1x or DCS760.

Thus, since most of (my) pictures end up printed in 8 x 10 inch
format anyway, we are finally getting the same "essential"
resolution as the "slightly" more expensive pro cameras,
conveniently "pre-cropped" for printing... ;-)

Not too bad, eh?
--
Michal Urban
 
Unless you simply want a 6x4 print.

In that case, you will need to crop some away where the D1 didn't have to. So unless you have a book that can hold 6x4.5 prints, something has to go.

Tony
Don't think so. 4:3 is a ratio of 1.33 to 1, 10x8 is a ratio of
1.25 to 1, although it is better then ratio of 1.5 to 1 from the
D1x. So more usable pixels for your money with the CP5000
 
Looking at the specs of various digital cameras I realized that 4:3
aspect ratio 5MP picture of CP5000 actually has the same height
( 2000 pixels) as the 3:2 aspect 6MP frame of say D1x or DCS760.

Thus, since most of (my) pictures end up printed in 8 x 10 inch
format anyway, we are finally getting the same "essential"
resolution as the "slightly" more expensive pro cameras,
conveniently "pre-cropped" for printing... ;-)

Not too bad, eh?
--
Michal Urban
The critical "test" of this idea will come in the resolution you see at 100% size on your computer monitor as you compare images from the two kinds of cameras. The D1-class cameras have a pronounced better-looking image structure at full size, so naturally they look better in a print or magazine.

There will be a point at which a downsampled image from a 5000 will look as good (in a practical sense) as a larger-chip SLR image --per pixel. That might happen at 75% size or 65% size, I can't tell, yet.

Once the --per pixel-- resolution of the larger camera has been reached, the comparison will have sharper teeth.

When you downsample this way with a 995, for instance, images resharpen to D(X) camera level within this range. By the time you get to 50% of the original size, the image is obviously totally pixel perfect as far as sharpness and detail are concerned.

I've done a test of taking a 3 megapixel image down to 1600 pixels wide in Photoshop, thus compacting the image information into 61% of the original pixel area, and then expanding it back up to 2048 pixels wide. Then compare the sharpness of the down/up image to the original. Hmm. Not much different from before... You lose about--what? 8%? Meaning that the best image may come from a full frame shot, but a 92% image can come from a shot that takes 61% of the storage space.

At some magic number for size reduction, virtually no difference should show from a down/up -sample operation. That might be thought of as the "true resolution" point. It's not really that simple, but the full size image from the compact cameras isn't as clean an image structure as images processed through the algorithms Nikon packs into their big cameras. Are they sitting on image processing tech that could "improve" the smaller cameras' images? It would make marketing sense, wouldn't it? Why give away the superior processing they need to cause their major professional devices to look so good.

When you compare the 100% size image from a D-1 to a Canon D30, you see that Canon hasn't achieved the "per pixel" picture power that Nikon has. But watch out. Competition is a great motivator of technology, and there are competitors out there who would LOVE to have their cameras spit out pixel perfect images. Sony, for instance, has no SLR line to defend. If they came up with D-1-like image processing algorithms, they might turn their next camera into a super cam and force Nikon to do a technology transfer into the compact camera line. Wow, was that speculation or what?

I would think that the 5000 will be about the same amount of detail --per pixel-- as the 990/995 -range cameras. Meaning that they will be somewhere in the range of 70% of the image detail of a D-1x. But that's a guess.

-iNova
 
When you downsample this way with a 995, for instance, images
resharpen to D(X) camera level within this range. By the time you
get to 50% of the original size, the image is obviously totally
pixel perfect as far as sharpness and detail are concerned.

I've done a test of taking a 3 megapixel image down to 1600 pixels
wide in Photoshop, thus compacting the image information into 61%
of the original pixel area, and then expanding it back up to 2048
pixels wide. Then compare the sharpness of the down/up image to the
original. Hmm. Not much different from before... You lose
about--what? 8%? Meaning that the best image may come from a full
frame shot, but a 92% image can come from a shot that takes 61% of
the storage space.

At some magic number for size reduction, virtually no difference
should show from a down/up -sample operation. That might be thought
of as the "true resolution" point. It's not really that simple, but
the full size image from the compact cameras isn't as clean an
image structure as images processed through the algorithms Nikon
packs into their big cameras. Are they sitting on image processing
tech that could "improve" the smaller cameras' images? It would
make marketing sense, wouldn't it? Why give away the superior
processing they need to cause their major professional devices to
look so good.
iNova...when I get my 5000 I will be contacting you to understand the above comments. I do mostly photos of homes indoors, different rooms, and many times with low light. What I have been doing is loading the image into PhotoShop and doubling the resolution to 144, then reduce the photo size to 5 inches wide. I then tweek for my errors in photogaphy and save for printing brochures. I save as a Tiff. I then reduce the resolution back to 72 and try to keep the images at less than 400 pixels wide and save as a jpeg for web production. Sorry for the long winded explanation but wanted you to know I am interested in learning about your comments.
Thanks much... LS Sr
 
This makes sense to me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I don't feel that I'm getting the pixel crispness at 100% on my 990 that I want to see. I don't think it is as crisp as what I was getting with my 950 !

For web sites, I naturally reduce the size and the image looks crisp. But I just sent off a full-sized jpeg for publication that looked softer (at the 100% pixel level) than I wanted it to look, so I sent the image also at 50% reduction with sharpness added to show what the photo should look like.

I've pre-ordered a 5000. Wouldn't it be a fantastic camera if that model does employ the same sharpness algorithm as the D1 series! We'll have to wait and see.

Peter, for the time being, do you recommend one shoots with the camera's sharpness turned on if he wants to get crisper images? ... or should the sharpness be applied in the editing? I'll experiment on my own, but I would like your insight.

--Randy
The critical "test" of this idea will come in the resolution you
see at 100% size on your computer monitor as you compare images
from the two kinds of cameras. The D1-class cameras have a
pronounced better-looking image structure at full size, so
naturally they look better in a print or magazine.
the full size image from the compact cameras isn't as clean an
image structure as images processed through the algorithms Nikon
packs into their big cameras. Are they sitting on image processing
tech that could "improve" the smaller cameras' images? It would
make marketing sense, wouldn't it? Why give away the superior
processing they need to cause their major professional devices to
look so good.
 
I agree with iNova's statement in general. In fact from a normal
viewing distance a 4 x 6 inch print will be hard to differentiate
whether from a D-1 or a 995. However I would also like to upsample
for comparative purposes. Why not upsample a D30 or D-1 to 5 mp
and then compare to the CP5000? This would show the true mesure
of a CP5000. I think that the lenses have as much importance as the
big sensors. Ex: the Oly E-10 small sensor is saved by it's lens, right?
I'm just hoping that the CP5000 won't have those haloed contours in
contrast areas that every point & shoot digicam has, or else I'm
waiting for the D40.

AntoineB.
Looking at the specs of various digital cameras I realized that 4:3
aspect ratio 5MP picture of CP5000 actually has the same height
( 2000 pixels) as the 3:2 aspect 6MP frame of say D1x or DCS760.

Thus, since most of (my) pictures end up printed in 8 x 10 inch
format anyway, we are finally getting the same "essential"
resolution as the "slightly" more expensive pro cameras,
conveniently "pre-cropped" for printing... ;-)

Not too bad, eh?
--
Michal Urban
The critical "test" of this idea will come in the resolution you
see at 100% size on your computer monitor as you compare images
from the two kinds of cameras. The D1-class cameras have a
pronounced better-looking image structure at full size, so
naturally they look better in a print or magazine.

There will be a point at which a downsampled image from a 5000 will
look as good (in a practical sense) as a larger-chip SLR image
--per pixel. That might happen at 75% size or 65% size, I can't
tell, yet.

Once the --per pixel-- resolution of the larger camera has been
reached, the comparison will have sharper teeth.

When you downsample this way with a 995, for instance, images
resharpen to D(X) camera level within this range. By the time you
get to 50% of the original size, the image is obviously totally
pixel perfect as far as sharpness and detail are concerned.

I've done a test of taking a 3 megapixel image down to 1600 pixels
wide in Photoshop, thus compacting the image information into 61%
of the original pixel area, and then expanding it back up to 2048
pixels wide. Then compare the sharpness of the down/up image to the
original. Hmm. Not much different from before... You lose
about--what? 8%? Meaning that the best image may come from a full
frame shot, but a 92% image can come from a shot that takes 61% of
the storage space.

At some magic number for size reduction, virtually no difference
should show from a down/up -sample operation. That might be thought
of as the "true resolution" point. It's not really that simple, but
the full size image from the compact cameras isn't as clean an
image structure as images processed through the algorithms Nikon
packs into their big cameras. Are they sitting on image processing
tech that could "improve" the smaller cameras' images? It would
make marketing sense, wouldn't it? Why give away the superior
processing they need to cause their major professional devices to
look so good.

When you compare the 100% size image from a D-1 to a Canon D30, you
see that Canon hasn't achieved the "per pixel" picture power that
Nikon has. But watch out. Competition is a great motivator of
technology, and there are competitors out there who would LOVE to
have their cameras spit out pixel perfect images. Sony, for
instance, has no SLR line to defend. If they came up with D-1-like
image processing algorithms, they might turn their next camera into
a super cam and force Nikon to do a technology transfer into the
compact camera line. Wow, was that speculation or what?

I would think that the 5000 will be about the same amount of detail
--per pixel-- as the 990/995 -range cameras. Meaning that they will
be somewhere in the range of 70% of the image detail of a D-1x. But
that's a guess.

-iNova
 
Thanks all for your input regarding my original observation. Sure, for a fraction of the price one can't really expect the same results, but fact is that some of the "quantitative" features are now closer than ever... and you get the lens and a tiny flash in the bundle ;-)

I believe that although the sensor and lens size/quality/cost are the limiting factors here, a lot could be made up using some "intelligent digital processing". And that should be the least expensive part, especially for mass produced models. Good question is whether the consumer cams are purposelly "crippled" in this respect so that bigger brothers can justify their price...

Actually, the CP5000 brochure boasts an "all-new Clear Image Mode for ultra-smooth color gradation for images up to 1280 x 960 pixels". That could be some kind of downsampling magic that some of you tried to describe here... although it only leaves us with 50% resolution.

I hope Phil will have a good look at this feature soon!
 

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