Oly owner buys a 20D, compares

Patrick H Lockwood

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I've been faithfully using two E1s for the last 50 weddings.

It's a capable camera, beautiful colors, and it, for the most part, is up to the job.

However, out of fustration in low llight, I have decided to get the 20D.

It's a well-known fact that 20D is not as noisey as the E1, so I'm not going to rub salt in that wound, well, not too much, but here goes:

On the noise front, though it is hard to tell in print, but the truth is in the shadows, and even I've often thought the E1 did a pretty good job at ISO 400, the 20D files are much cleaner in the shadows. These artifacts are hardly visible in prints with E1, and that is what counts, but how nice it is, when I'm making zoomed in edits, with 20D files, not to see noise in the 20D files. Yes, I've seen clean E1 high noise shots that have been cleaned up and you can get there from here with the E1, but there is no question that, overall, the 20D is far less noisy than the E1, and often, noise in the E1 is like a nagging headache. You know that feeling when you have had a nagging headache, you take some asperin, and that first feeling of relief with the headache disappears? That is what I felt when I first saw the 20D ISO 400 and higher files on my computer.

I've been shooting with the 17-35mm f/2.8 L on the 20D, and the Zuiko 14-54, I'm proud to say, is every bit as good as this Canon L, which is very good.

I can do a pretty good job in low light with the E1, insofar as focusing and getting the shot.

However, many times I missed shots because the E1 could not focus fast enough, or struggled to focus.

The 20D is far more responsive and when I push the shutter, the camera comes through for me, everytime. This is such a boon for a candid shooter, you have no idea. My focusing fustrations with the E1, though they are not so much a fustration for the most part, but I've missed shots often enough with the E1 that it is a fustration, well, it seems those days are over with the 20D.

The 20D has five frames per second, and a focus mode that shifts automatically from a one shot to a servo mode, as needed, automatically. Both of the features really come in handy. The other day, on an outdoor ceremony, they released some doves, and 5 frames per second really did the trick for that sequence of the dove-release shots.

I think the E1, if it even hopes to be a major contender, at least for wedding photographers, they are going to have to solve the noise problem, and introduce wide angle, faster than f/2, primes, and get out of camera viable shots at ISO 1600. I recognize that wedding photographers may represent a small portion of Oly's market, but I'm just offering these ideas in hopes they will listen, because the E1 has some very valuable things going for it, which is why I will always have an E1 in my arsenal:

The E1 has rock solid reliablity, no dust on sensor issues, sharp pictures, excellent glass, and the focal range of the zooms are are better deal than the offerings of Canon (unless one owns a 5D or 1Ds) and solid build quality at a very good price.

But the performance features of the Canon, for my needs, are such that I must relegate the E1 as my back up camera, for now. But having the E1 as a back up is far more reassuring to me than having another 20D as a backup. Neither system fulfills all of my needs as nicely has having both.

Patrick
 
I agree with you Patrick. I have a Canon DR for awhile and bought an E-1 a couple weeks ago. Great price, can't ressist! I've found Canon DR produced cleaner pictures in ISO 400 and above. But I do enjoy the built quality of the E-1 a lot more than the DR.
I do enjoy them all!
My 2 cents.
 
you have no idea.
Patrick. I have a very good idea! but I appreciate I'm in the minority here along with you and a few others.

A very interesting post. Thank you. I can't say I have anything to really argue with.

I would very much like to hear your continued evaluation in the future. Especially in terms of the differences in post processing, printing etc. I'm very curious as to what you think of the colour differences and what you have to do to the 20D images. I've got a load of wedding images from stuff like d2X and 1DSMk2 cameras and they are really nasty colour wise straight from the camera when compared to the E1. People look dead! And if you do start altering the saturation etc to try and get the colours back .... well its not as easy as that.... the bride is alive once more but she looks like she's married a carrot !! Lots of colour balancing needed. Don't get me wrong - it can be done as I've seen fabulous end results from these cameras, but I'm curious as to the differences in workflow that are needed to get there.
Any comments gratefully received.

Cheers

Gareth
 
Differences in performance measures on various cameras are interesting to say the least. When comparing anything (nowadays) to the E-1, one must, however, bear in mind that the E-1 is 2.5 years old - light years behind as far as modern day digital technology advances are concerned. Having said that, both the 20D and the 1D Mk II are high ISO wonders. But I'm also glad to see that Nikon has finally started making inroads into high ISO performance values. The D50 can take some fantastic ISO 1600 images (with little to no noise), although it doesn't go any higher than that and it looks like the D200 is up there also.

The E-1 on the other hand, has something that just about every other camera lacks - well, at least in my opinion. When one takes "good images" with this model, the effect can be uncanny - meaning the color, the saturation, and the sense of "immediacy" can be downright alluring or addicting (I use the term "good images" in this case because let's face it, it doesn't make a difference if you have the E-1 and the best Zuiko lenses, if the user doesn't know what he/she is doing...then what's the use).

I've been the route of many, many cameras. I've had the likes of the 10D, 20D, 1D Mk II, the D100, D70, D2H, Fuji S2 Pro, and the list goes on. Yet, each and every time - despite having cleaner high ISO performance measures (along with faster speeds), I just found myself returning to the marvels of the E-1. I can't really effectively explain it, other than there is just something about the E-1 images that evoke...well, "wonder," "excitement," and most of all "believability."

Yes, I was highly dissapointed when I had to part with the clean high ISO performance scenarios of the aforementioned cameras, but there were many times (at high ISO's and at other situations) where the colors (the overal look) of the Canon images just didn't suite my tastes. At times (with the Canon gear - and yes, using "L" glass), the images had that...well, "water color" look that is often referred to when trying to describe them - while other times everything turned out wonderful. The Nikon camers on the other hand (back then) seemed to have a tonality that was nice (and very sharp), but again...getting skin tones (and sky tones) just right, was difficult at best (and that has long since changed for the positive with the likes of the D50, D2X, and D200).

So I am hoping that the E-1 replacement will set another milestone - but that it doesn't lose it's strong appeal in the color and tonality department - the hallmarks of why folks stick with Olympus. And if they can solve the high ISO arena with that smaller 4/3 sensor - which they must do - then the occasional longing for cameras past (Canon DSLR's, etc) would well be a fleeting thought.
--
Good shooting...

Ben

 
Hi Biggie,

Regarding a fast way to get life back on peoples skin, do you know the tecniques is Lab colorspace? Adding natural looking vibrance to colors while keeping the neutrals is vital in wedding pictures, and that is what you get in Lab.

--
Petri
 
Hi Biggie,

Regarding a fast way to get life back on peoples skin, do you know
the tecniques is Lab colorspace?
Hello!

Sorry for sounding dumb here, but are you talking about working in Lab colour as in Photoshop MODE > Lab colour

Or is there some specific software called 'colourspace' ?
 
the master of the LAB colorspace is ofcourse Dan Margulis. On Dgrin, there's a couple of folks doing a study on LAB color correcting, based on the chapters of his book ( http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1085484 ). They accomplish quite a bit, and seem to be quite strong in their beliefs that the LAB colorspace is the best suitable for any type of color correction. There's a new pretty basic How To on adding "pop" to your images for LAB "starters" done by rutt ( http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1108502 ), to give an idea on how things works.
 
are you talking about working in
Lab colour as in Photoshop MODE > Lab colour
Yes, that's it! It works really different than rgb or cmyk, but has a hole bag of tricks for color corrections. It is a bit tricky first, but worth learning, because it really speeds up the process. I have long used Lab as a tool in my work and have only learned it from books and personal experience, but this place looks like a good place to start digging in to Lab http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=18203 . The techiques there are from a recent book from Dan Margulis, it pretty much covers the subject.

--
Petri
 
and seem to be quite strong in their beliefs that the LAB
colorspace is the best suitable for any type of color correction.
Yeah, I've noticed this ethos too, but it really is just one tool among others, and a good one too. But on some tasks, like correcting white and black point color balance separately is way much more complex in Lab than in RGB. I certainly wouldn't call it suitable for any type of color correction.

And some Lab-like things can be accomplished in RGB layers using luminosity or color blends.

--
Petri
 
I know the performance is top notch. What let me down was the build. For my uses, I cannot shoot with something like that. I would wear it out. At least it feels that way. Take a look at the front dial. On some cameras after heavy use dials loose their precision. I am almost certain that would be the case on the 20D. However, at the end of the day if results are one's main concern, I think you are right. It is very nice. If I decide to buy into Canon though, it will most likely have to be to a mark 2. Even the 5D, leaves me without confidence. I have thought about a 1Dm2 many times. I think having that with an E-1 would be the ultimate combo for now.
 
I've been faithfully using two E1s for the last 50 weddings.

It's a capable camera, beautiful colors, and it, for the most part,
is up to the job.

However, out of fustration in low llight, I have decided to get
the 20D.

It's a well-known fact that 20D is not as noisey as the E1, so I'm
not going to rub salt in that wound, well, not too much, but here
goes:

On the noise front, though it is hard to tell in print, but the
truth is in the shadows, and even I've often thought the E1 did a
pretty good job at ISO 400, the 20D files are much cleaner in the
shadows. These artifacts are hardly visible in prints with E1, and
that is what counts, but how nice it is, when I'm making zoomed
in edits, with 20D files, not to see noise in the 20D files. Yes,
I've seen clean E1 high noise shots that have been cleaned up and
you can get there from here with the E1, but there is no question
that, overall, the 20D is far less noisy than the E1, and often,
noise in the E1 is like a nagging headache. You know that feeling
when you have had a nagging headache, you take some asperin, and
that first feeling of relief with the headache disappears? That is
what I felt when I first saw the 20D ISO 400 and higher files on my
computer.

I've been shooting with the 17-35mm f/2.8 L on the 20D, and the
Zuiko 14-54, I'm proud to say, is every bit as good as this Canon
L, which is very good.

I can do a pretty good job in low light with the E1, insofar as
focusing and getting the shot.

However, many times I missed shots because the E1 could not focus
fast enough, or struggled to focus.

The 20D is far more responsive and when I push the shutter, the
camera comes through for me, everytime. This is such a boon for
a candid shooter, you have no idea. My focusing fustrations with
the E1, though they are not so much a fustration for the most
part, but I've missed shots often enough with the E1 that it is a
fustration, well, it seems those days are over with the 20D.

The 20D has five frames per second, and a focus mode that shifts
automatically from a one shot to a servo mode, as needed,
automatically. Both of the features really come in handy. The
other day, on an outdoor ceremony, they released some doves, and
5 frames per second really did the trick for that sequence of the
dove-release shots.

I think the E1, if it even hopes to be a major contender, at
least for wedding photographers, they are going to have to solve
the noise problem, and introduce wide angle, faster than f/2,
primes, and get out of camera viable shots at ISO 1600. I
recognize that wedding photographers may represent a small portion
of Oly's market, but I'm just offering these ideas in hopes they
will listen, because the E1 has some very valuable things going
for it, which is why I will always have an E1 in my arsenal:

The E1 has rock solid reliablity, no dust on sensor issues,
sharp pictures, excellent glass, and the focal range of the zooms
are are better deal than the offerings of Canon (unless one owns a
5D or 1Ds) and solid build quality at a very good price.

But the performance features of the Canon, for my needs, are such
that I must relegate the E1 as my back up camera, for now. But
having the E1 as a back up is far more reassuring to me than having
another 20D as a backup. Neither system fulfills all of my needs
as nicely has having both.

Patrick
Patrick I had a 20D and a bunch of L lenses and I wasn't impressed with either. The 20D did make some good photos when it didn't back focus or front focus. Even in good light the 20D has problems getting the focus correct. I am sure you will notice this problem and it is also well documented just do a Google search for "Canon 20D+Problems". I had mine only for a few months and got so frustrated at it and the poor service Canon provided I sold it all and bought a D70s which has been a very good camera with none of the focusing issues of the 20D. I also bought in past couple of months 2 E1s and just love them!!! Even though the Nikon does a great job I always seem to pick up one of the E1s they just are more predictable and more like the Contax cameras I am use too.

--
John Parola
 
I've been shooting with the 17-35mm f/2.8 L on the 20D, and the
Zuiko 14-54, I'm proud to say, is every bit as good as this Canon
L, which is very good.
I found this to be true for the 17-40 f/4 L as well. By biggest beef with the 20D was focus accuracy. It sure was fast, but sloppy at the same time. That aside, it's a very fine camera.

--
http://www.highsee3.smugmug.com

'A camera maker that simply copies others' idea has no right to call itself an original
maker in the first place.' -Mr. Maitani, creator of the OM photographic system.
 
Thanks for sharing your experiences~

How do you feel about the flash systems of Oly and Canon after a
wedding?

--
http://www.everett.smugmug.com
I use Sunpaks on Camera, and Vivitars for slaves, when needed.

My FL-50 doesn't sync anymore, and I've been putting off getting it fixed.

When it was working, the only way I liked using it was to tape over the TTL terminals in the hotshoe, which would disable communication between the FL-50. Distance and G/N info would be replaced with F/stop and ISO, which is what I preferred. This, for some reason, also improved the camera's abilty to focus in low light, though still not as good as the 20D.

I haven't purchased a speedlight, yet, though I may, in the future. But if it does not have an Auto mode, I won't.

Patrick
 
you have no idea.
Patrick. I have a very good idea! but I appreciate I'm in the
minority here along with you and a few others.

A very interesting post. Thank you. I can't say I have anything to
really argue with.

I would very much like to hear your continued evaluation in the
future. Especially in terms of the differences in post processing,
printing etc. I'm very curious as to what you think of the colour
differences and what you have to do to the 20D images. I've got a
load of wedding images from stuff like d2X and 1DSMk2 cameras and
they are really nasty colour wise straight from the camera when
compared to the E1. People look dead! And if you do start altering
the saturation etc to try and get the colours back .... well its
not as easy as that.... the bride is alive once more but she looks
like she's married a carrot !! Lots of colour balancing needed.
Don't get me wrong - it can be done as I've seen fabulous end
results from these cameras, but I'm curious as to the differences
in workflow that are needed to get there.
Any comments gratefully received.

Cheers

Gareth
I was worried about color, but so far, 20D colors are very good, and I love the skin tones, very creamy, like film. E1's default settings seem to be slightly more saturated than that of Canon's, but this seems more noticeable under tungsten. Outdoors, i really can't tell much the difference between the two cameras, but you can bias color on either camera any way you want. I prefer neutral balanced colors, and if I need something different, I will do so in post processing.

Actually, for outdoor weddings, I prefer film, Fuji NPS 160, processed by a lab, such as Chrome in San Diego, that knows what they are doing.

Patrick
 
Patrick I had a 20D and a bunch of L lenses and I wasn't impressed
with either. The 20D did make some good photos when it didn't back
focus or front focus. Even in good light the 20D has problems
getting the focus correct. I am sure you will notice this problem
and it is also well documented just do a Google search for "Canon
20D+Problems". I had mine only for a few months and got so
frustrated at it and the poor service Canon provided I sold it all
and bought a D70s which has been a very good camera with none of
the focusing issues of the 20D. I also bought in past couple of
months 2 E1s and just love them!!! Even though the Nikon does a
great job I always seem to pick up one of the E1s they just are
more predictable and more like the Contax cameras I am use too.

--
John Parola
So far I've tried the 20D with a 50mm F/1.8, and a 17-35mm f/2.8 L.

Focus with the the 50mm is acceptable, but the L was very good, as good as my Zuiko, under many lighting conditions. I've heard problems, of course, and so this is why my Oly will be a back up camera, in case the performance gained by the 20D is offset by a focus issue on a new lens. However, my research indicates that, though the 20D, as a purchase, might be a gamble, problems for owners are a minority, and because there are far more 20D owners than E1 owners, one has to factor proportions into consideration to give a fair judgement. So for, so good, as far as I'm concerned. My biggest point is that neither system fulfills my needs as much as both do, together.

Patrick
 
When it was working, the only way I liked using it was to tape over
the TTL terminals in the hotshoe, which would disable
communication between the FL-50. Distance and G/N info would be
replaced with F/stop and ISO, which is what I preferred. This,
for some reason, also improved the camera's abilty to focus in low
light,
Patrick,

IIRC, quite a few people have commented on the E1's built in AF assist light giving superior results to the one in the FL50.
Taping over the contacts would of course make the E1 use its internal assist.

FWIW, I believe (and someone correct me if I am wrong), that setting CLP to OFF makes the camera think the flash is off camera and thus this disables the FL50 AF light as well while retaining all the TTL functions.

Just in case you fix the FL-50 :-)

Cheers

Ga.
 
I know the performance is top notch. What let me down was the
build. For my uses, I cannot shoot with something like that. I
would wear it out. At least it feels that way.
My 20D crashed down to the street today (from somewhere between 50 and 100 cm hight). I took it up and continued photographing. No problems so far.

Though, In don't like the scratch.
 
are your customers, who trusted you with capturing their first (of probably several) weddings happy with the images that were taken using the E-1? (The answer is 'yes'). Can they tell the difference between images taken on an E-1 and an EOS 20D? (The answer is 'no'). Do they know what an e-1 or 20D is? (the answer is again 'no'). So why bother buying a 20D? The E-1 is a superb wedding photography camera.
 

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