FL-36, not enough for bounce flash?

I have seen many posts saying this.

Guide number 36(m) is equivalent of 120(ft) which is the same as many full size hot-shoe flash such as Vivitar 283 or Sunpak 383(I have Sunpak 433D, which has the same output as 383), but I have never heard of people saying they are not powerful enough for bounce flash.

Ok, FL-36 flash has a zoom head, so it's different from other two models I mentioned, but stil, from my experience with zoom head flash is not that much different.

I have tried with my Nikon flash unit which is rated at guide number 20(m). I utilized a help of maximum aperture of 2.5 and higher than normal ASA200. The result was nearly one stop over exposure. (At the guide number of 20, the flash doesn't have a tilt head, so I used a synch cord)

The difference of 20 and 36 is pretty big. Twice the guide numbver means 4 times intensity difference.

Shouldn't the people complain about weak output of FL-36 look at some other negative factors, like trying to push to smaller aperture, trying to use high celing and or trying to bounce off the dark colored celing?

I'd like to hear from your real experience how did you come to the conclusion that FL-36 is not strong enough for bounce flash.

where you will hear complaints are in the recycling speed and overall power compared to its big brother, the FL-50. I've owned the 20, 36, 40 and 50 (unbelievable, but true.) The 36 is FAR superior to the 20 but doesn't compare to the 50.
--
Theresa Kelly
http://theresak.smugmug.com/
Oly E-3OO + some other stuff

Constructive criticism always welcome!

I have a couple of GN 36 flashguns. A GN of 36 is adequate for bounce but does stretch the friendship a bit with digitals. The problem with the FL-36 is that it has only two batteries. This can't be a good idea, indeed four beats two every time, particularly when you spend the extra enrgy for bounce flash.

For ceiling bounces, I think you are correct the FL-36 is at the lower limit .... and is often frustrating .... but walls or reflector's bounces work quit fine.

I did the following portrait using the C8080 at ISO 50 with the FL-36 ...
http://www.pbase.com/ericdeparis/image/54526980/original

For this kind of portrait the FL-36 is a cheap yet workable solution.

Have a good sunday, ERic

As I understand it, these observations about the FL-36 and bounce flash are specifically referrring to its use in combination with the c7070.

I own this combination, and can verify that there is a compatibility issue between the two when the flash is used in bounce mode. Shots are grossly under-exposed, to the point of being black - even with 8ft white ceilings. In 'straight-ahead' mode there is no problem at all.

It seems that the problem stems from synchronisation when the flash-head is tilted. It is clearly a major design fault from Olympus. And very galling considering the flash unit is marketed as an accessory for the c7070, and hardly comes cheap.

I have given up on the combination, or rather the otherwise excellent c7070 (as it seems the issue is present with all dedicated Oly flashes and this camera), and am about to sell mine off. I will replace it with an 8080, as forum users report that the FL-36 works fine with this model.

I think that impression about there being talk of the FL36 not having the grunt may largely come from that long-running recent thread about the 7070 problems with a title to that effect - which weren't that the FL36 didn't have enough power, but rather that it didn't work with the 7070 with the head tilted.

But that said, it doesn't have the power of the sunpak 383/433, on account of the zoom head as metioned in the original post. According to its specs, http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/198_FL-36.htm it has a guide number of 20 metres at wide angle (24mm). The 36m is only reached for the narrow-angle beam of 85mm focal length. For bounce though, the total energy bouncing around is the relevant one, and so I'd put the equivalent at around 25m to 30m when comparing to the 40m of the sunpak.

Thats stlil enough for bounce but more grunt does give more flexibility.

This was one of my suspicion, why people keep getting under exposed images with flash bounced off the ceiling. Keep using FL-36 on auto zoom.

People use bounce flash indoor. For most of the average sized house, people are more likey to use wide angle lens. If you keep the flash on auto zoom, the flash will adjust to the lens focul length even if it's used as bounce flash. As a result, user uses the flash at lower end output when it need the most output.

To corrcet this, the user set the flash zoom to manual and to the longest end, if FL-36 doesn't give this option, I'd be very surprised. When the user uses the flash bounce off the flash, zoom head becomes irrelevant, you just set the flash to the maximum you can get.

There was a time the photographers didn't have much choice but use either manual or thyristor auto flash, TTL auto was something of a luxury. Even though manual flashes are useful than ever with digital cameras because of instant replay and wide range of ASA adjustment, but the populaity of those are declining. Nobody even talks about genelic non-dedicated flash units. You know why? You have to know how to use it.

I have to wonder how many of those complain that FL-36 is not powerful enough for bounce flash know how to use Vivitar 283, much less know how to make use of falsh compensation by adjusting ASA speed and exposure control on the camera.

===============================

johno said:

But that said, it doesn't have the power of the sunpak 383/433, on
account of the zoom head as metioned in the original post.
According to its specs,
http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/198_FL-36.htm it has a guide
number of 20 metres at wide angle (24mm). The 36m is only reached
for the narrow-angle beam of 85mm focal length. For bounce
though, the total energy bouncing around is the relevant one, and
so I'd put the equivalent at around 25m to 30m when comparing to
the 40m of the sunpak.

Click to expand...

Here's an example; C8080 w/FL-36, bounced off white ceiling.

I usually have no problems doing this.



--
Tom

C4000, C8080, FL-36

Here's another with a human subject.



--
Tom

C4000, C8080, FL-36

Finished playing with my C8080 and the FL36.

On to the C7070 and FL-36

Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Zoom set to 20
Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Conclusion? Must use the zoom setting to get acceptable bounce flash shots with the C7070

--
Slow down! You'll miss... life

http://www.pbase.com/ramblin_mo/galleries
Oly C8o8oWZ, Oly F L -3 6 flash
Can DR 3ooD Can 18-55,17 -85 IS, 75 -300 D0 IS
Panasonic F Z 5K
Panasonic F Zee thirty K
Qimage, PSP 9.1, sigh! photoshop CS

Ramblin said:

Finished playing with my C8080 and the FL36.

On to the C7070 and FL-36

Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Zoom set to 20
Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up

Click to expand...

flash compensation +3.0 Works fine

Conclusion? Must use the zoom setting to get acceptable bounce
flash shots with the C7070

Ramblin said:

--
Slow down! You'll miss... life

http://www.pbase.com/ramblin_mo/galleries
Oly C8o8oWZ, Oly F L -3 6 flash
Can DR 3ooD Can 18-55,17 -85 IS, 75 -300 D0 IS
Panasonic F Z 5K
Panasonic F Zee thirty K
Qimage, PSP 9.1, sigh! photoshop CS

Click to expand...

--
Slow down! You'll miss... life

http://www.pbase.com/ramblin_mo/galleries
Oly C8o8oWZ, Oly F L -3 6 flash
Can DR 3ooD Can 18-55,17 -85 IS, 75 -300 D0 IS
Panasonic F Z 5K
Panasonic F Zee thirty K
Qimage, PSP 9.1, sigh! photoshop CS

I never use any of flashes for anything other than bounce flash. Sure the FL-50 is going to be the most powerful - that's a given, but don't discount the FL-36 at all. I use my FL-36 with a Stofen type of Omnibounce cap, point the flash head in the 45-90 degree position, and usually dial in +.7 to +1.0 of FEC (to offset the light loss). I then place my cameras on manual mode (leaving the Oly flash on TTL mode). Here are a few E300 pics using this method (used the FL-36). Noooo, they are not outstanding compositions - just some pictures of a friend and his family:







I think you can get the impression that they like pugs for dogs. Hey, I'm a cat person, but since I was staying at their house, I had to adapt. Actually got to liking these ugly, yet cut dogs (how's that for a play on words).

Bottom line is that you can achieve good bounce results if you know what you are doing and apply certain principles to the flash at hand. BTW I used 2500 mAH rechargeable nimh's in my FL-36.
--
Good shooting...

Ben

Ben Herrmann said:

I never use any of flashes for anything other than bounce flash.
Sure the FL-50 is going to be the most powerful - that's a given,
but don't discount the FL-36 at all. I use my FL-36 with a Stofen
type of Omnibounce cap, point the flash head in the 45-90 degree
position, and usually dial in +.7 to +1.0 of FEC (to offset the
light loss). I then place my cameras on manual mode (leaving the
Oly flash on TTL mode). Here are a few E300 pics using this method
(used the FL-36). Noooo, they are not outstanding compositions -
just some pictures of a friend and his family:

Click to expand...

I would anticipate the FL-36 working fine for the E-1, E-300, and E-500 cameras, and for a normal size house it should have plenty of power. However there seems to be several people complaining that it doesn't work for the C-xxxx cameras, particularly the C-7070WZ. If memory serves, you also have (or at least had) a C-7070WZ and C-8080WZ in addition to the E's. Would it be possible to test your flash with those cameras in bounce mode as well? That way we could see if it is a generic problem that Olympus just blew the firmware for the C-xxxx cameras (my contention) or whether people have a broken FL-36.

If I understand this correctly, if you manually set the zoom on the FL-36, then it works with the 7070, but if you leave the zoom on auto then the image comes out dark? Does it matter what manual zoom setting you use? Does the same thing happen on the 8080?

johno

With the flash pointed up, you have zoom settings 16 and 20 or off.

johno said:

If I understand this correctly, if you manually set the zoom on the
FL-36, then it works with the 7070, but if you leave the zoom on
auto then the image comes out dark? Does it matter what manual
zoom setting you use? Does the same thing happen on the 8080?

johno

Click to expand...

--
Slow down! You'll miss... life

http://www.pbase.com/ramblin_mo/galleries
Oly C8o8oWZ, Oly F L -3 6 flash
Can DR 3ooD Can 18-55,17 -85 IS, 75 -300 D0 IS
Panasonic F Z 5K
Panasonic F Zee thirty K
Qimage, PSP 9.1, sigh! photoshop CS

Did you clone all those dogs in Photo Shop? Just kiddin.

Your photos look great.

=========================
Ben Herrmann wrote:

Does "zoom set to 20" mean the longest zoom setting FL-36 can adjust? I assume it doesn't mean "zoom adjuted for 20mm focal length"?

========================

Ramblin said:

Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Zoom set to 20
Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Click to expand...

That is the longest zoom with the flash upright on the C7070.

allgoo19 said:

========================

Ramblin said:

Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Zoom set to 20
Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Slow down! You'll miss... life

http://www.pbase.com/ramblin_mo/galleries
Oly C8o8oWZ, Oly F L -3 6 flash
Can DR 3ooD Can 18-55,17 -85 IS, 75 -300 D0 IS
Panasonic F Z 5K
Panasonic F Zee thirty K
Qimage, PSP 9.1, sigh! photoshop CS

What was the lens aperture and ASA speed on the camera?

==================

Ramblin said:

On to the C7070 and FL-36

Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Zoom set to 20
Internal flash off,
tilting the flash straght up
flash compensation +3.0 Still dark and underexposed

Click to expand...

Sorry I have since deleted the pictures.

P-mode ISO 80

--
Slow down! You'll miss... life

http://www.pbase.com/ramblin_mo/galleries
Oly C8o8oWZ, Oly F L -3 6 flash
Can DR 3ooD Can 18-55,17 -85 IS, 75 -300 D0 IS
Panasonic F Z 5K
Panasonic F Zee thirty K
Qimage, PSP 9.1, sigh! photoshop CS