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EVF vs OVF continued...

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nickleback said:
BobTrips said:
Can you
track subject motion or is the presentation too disjointed?
Click to expand...
I forgot to respond to this. The AF can track the subject motion.
That's what predictive AI Servo does for you. Focus on something,
let the camera see it pass from one focus sensor to another and
predict where focus will be by the time the shutter actually opens.
When the mirror flops down the camera grabs focus again and the
cycle continues. This can be done at 5fps even with a moving
mirror.
Click to expand...
Since we are discussing what a camera with an improved** (put those little stars in for folks who have trouble with "now" vs. "when") EVF, we can imagine a better way.

Imagine an adequate** EVF, one with enough resolution for focusing, fast enough refresh rate, minimal lag, etc. and with no during shot blackout.

No disrupted view, no noise, no vibration, ....

(And you who don't want an EVF are not required to but it. ;o)

--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
CharlieDIY said:
BobTrips said:
CharlieDIY said:
Do you think an EVF camera have no viewfinder blackout?
Click to expand...
Some don't.

None need to. Just a matter of installing enough processing power.
Click to expand...
Is that another battery gobbler?
Click to expand...
Processing the signal in addition to writing it to buffer is going to cause us to have to use car batteries.

And we certainly are going to miss the power generated by mirror movement.

;o)

--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
Joe0Bloggs said:
Should 'Preview' mean something you can see before taking the shot
and 'review' mean something you see after taking the shot?
Click to expand...
actually it can be little confusing but the "after shot' condition doesn't mean necessarely "review". The immediate after shot pic shown on the evf is still called "preview" because it's still the image straight from the sensor without camera processing applied and not yet saved to the flash card. When you set the camera in playback mode and read from the flash card that is a review. At least this is the terminology used in camera manuals and I found so far in the forums.
Joe0Bloggs said:
Also I saw someone confuse live histogram as on EVF with post-shot
historgrams as on LCD on a DSLR.
Click to expand...
I agree with you these are different.
Joe0Bloggs said:
IMHO the biggest advantage of EVF over OVF is when it can show an
accurate preview of the exposure on the final photo. This gives an
advantage to EVF cameras when shooting in complex lighting
conditions, especially when manual exposure is required--the
correct exposure can be dialed in without trial and error.
Click to expand...
That is commonly called "esposure preview" and yes it can help you to achive the right exposure without many try/fail attempts. I also rely a lot on the after shot immediate preview which is much closer to the definitive result. As I said before this is impossible to get with the DSLR ovf/lcd combo.
Joe0Bloggs said:
If that is important to you an EVF camera should appeal to you the
most. I guess the R1 may be a great camera for photographers
working in concerts and discos if the AF isn't giving them any
trouble.
Click to expand...
The R1 is an interesting camera because introduces a new concept. It still lack chageable lenses which is the most important feature right now for me, so I will wait more and see. I don;t have any urgent need or complaint though and I can go on shooting with my 300d.

--
Antonio
http://www.pbase.com/antonio_2
 
BobTrips said:
PaulyOly said:
Member said:
During bursts?
Click to expand...
Yes during bursts Bob, have you not used the things you talk about?
Click to expand...
OK, if you say so.

I had checked the specs on a 20D and it seems that one can shoot
bursts of 25 frames at 5 fps. So if you don't notice a five second
blackout while the mirror is up, you just don't notice it.
Member said:
The shutter lag is almost inperceivable and it will only get less
Click to expand...
If you say so. I guess you're expecting the laws of physics to
change in the near future. Nothing I've heard about so far....
Click to expand...
I don't know why you're talking physics bob, but I do know that the blackout time, lets call it time between each frame that the mirror is up, of the canon 20d is 115 milliseconds. The human eye blinks at 300-400 milliseconds. Now blink your eyes really, really fast Bob and now image them blinking 3 times faster and you'll see the blackout of the 20d.
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
... and consider if there might be times when an articulated screen
might allow you to get a shot that would be hard to impossible with
a standard viewfinder.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Member said:
I can't imagine being in a crowd, much less the need to shoot over
one.
Click to expand...
Lots of us shoot in widely varied conditions. We experience the
need to shoot from positions other that with the camera at "eye
level". That means that if you are limited to an OVF then you've
either got to put your eyes in strange orientations or resort to
"point and guess" shooting.
Member said:
Member said:
Look at your present gear and ask if there are any features that
you would miss were you required to shoot with a fixed lens, fixed
aperture, single shutter speed camera. How about one that required
a film change after each exposure?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Member said:
I shoot with fixed lenses bob, zooms are a compromise, even the
good ones.
Click to expand...
Those are called "primes".
Click to expand...
Thanks bob, i've been trying to zoom my 135 f2L all this time!
Member said:
Member said:
I'm not sure there is any advantage to a fixed aperture
lens or single shutter speed camera? I'm not even going to open
the film can of worms.
Click to expand...
You missed my point here. Not that many years back most
photography was done with some version of the Kodak Brownie. A
camera limited by a fixed, non-zoom lens, a single shutter speed,
no focusing, no meter, no nada....
Click to expand...
And you apparently missed mine.
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
All of those 'changes' that we now use were most likely opposed by
someone who felt that they didn't need them.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Member said:
Member said:
Personally, I find that most new features increase my ability to
take a wider range of pictures and I value that.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Member said:
I've considered it bob and for the record i've never had a problem
with a live preview lcd option, but I don't want an EVF.
Click to expand...
Member said:
EVF's have to many compromises for me ,no thanks, if I need to move
up past the 20d to get a real optical viewfinder then that's what
i'll do, atleast explorer won't be in that forum. I'm not a big
fan of the 1.6x crop factor anyway, bring on the 6D with that big
optical viewfinder.
Click to expand...
You seem to be having a problem with "now" and "when".

Obviously current, "now" EVFs are not as good as they need be for
critical manual focusing and DOF judgment. But that certainly
doesn't mean that they won't improve and be a valid option "when".
Click to expand...
I live in the now Bob and i'm assuming you do as well, we both could be dead before "when" gets here.
Member said:
Member said:
We have to many features and choices as it is, more will just lead
to more posts by confused shoppers. We should have stopped at 31
flavors of ice cream IMO, but some nut just had to have that
chocolate covered cherry mocha almond fudge brownie ice cream.
sheeshhhhhh!
Click to expand...
I'm guessing that the only features that should be offered
photographers are the one that you personally find useful....
;o)
Click to expand...
Nope, you'd have guess wrong, but you are used to be wrong aren't you Bob. I'm all for more features, i just don't want the ones I find useful taken away by photographers like you.

--

http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root
 
PaulyOly said:
BobTrips said:
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
During bursts?
Click to expand...
Yes during bursts Bob, have you not used the things you talk about?
Click to expand...
OK, if you say so.

I had checked the specs on a 20D and it seems that one can shoot
bursts of 25 frames at 5 fps. So if you don't notice a five second
blackout while the mirror is up, you just don't notice it.
PaulyOly said:
The shutter lag is almost inperceivable and it will only get less
Click to expand...
If you say so. I guess you're expecting the laws of physics to
change in the near future. Nothing I've heard about so far....
Click to expand...
I don't know why you're talking physics bob, but I do know that the
blackout time, lets call it time between each frame that the mirror
is up, of the canon 20d is 115 milliseconds. The human eye blinks
at 300-400 milliseconds. Now blink your eyes really, really fast
Bob and now image them blinking 3 times faster and you'll see the
blackout of the 20d.
Click to expand...
You know, I'd rather use a viewfinder that didn't do that.
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
... and consider if there might be times when an articulated screen
might allow you to get a shot that would be hard to impossible with
a standard viewfinder.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
PaulyOly said:
I can't imagine being in a crowd, much less the need to shoot over
one.
Click to expand...
Lots of us shoot in widely varied conditions. We experience the
need to shoot from positions other that with the camera at "eye
level". That means that if you are limited to an OVF then you've
either got to put your eyes in strange orientations or resort to
"point and guess" shooting.
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
Look at your present gear and ask if there are any features that
you would miss were you required to shoot with a fixed lens, fixed
aperture, single shutter speed camera. How about one that required
a film change after each exposure?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
PaulyOly said:
I shoot with fixed lenses bob, zooms are a compromise, even the
good ones.
Click to expand...
Those are called "primes".
Click to expand...
Thanks bob, i've been trying to zoom my 135 f2L all this time!
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
I'm not sure there is any advantage to a fixed aperture
lens or single shutter speed camera? I'm not even going to open
the film can of worms.
Click to expand...
You missed my point here. Not that many years back most
photography was done with some version of the Kodak Brownie. A
camera limited by a fixed, non-zoom lens, a single shutter speed,
no focusing, no meter, no nada....
Click to expand...
And you apparently missed mine.
Click to expand...
No, I got yours Paul.

You don't want to give up your OVFs. I can understand that.

What you don't seem to be willing to consider is that there might be something even better than what is available today.
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
All of those 'changes' that we now use were most likely opposed by
someone who felt that they didn't need them.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
Personally, I find that most new features increase my ability to
take a wider range of pictures and I value that.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
PaulyOly said:
I've considered it bob and for the record i've never had a problem
with a live preview lcd option, but I don't want an EVF.
Click to expand...
PaulyOly said:
EVF's have to many compromises for me ,no thanks, if I need to move
up past the 20d to get a real optical viewfinder then that's what
i'll do, atleast explorer won't be in that forum. I'm not a big
fan of the 1.6x crop factor anyway, bring on the 6D with that big
optical viewfinder.
Click to expand...
You seem to be having a problem with "now" and "when".

Obviously current, "now" EVFs are not as good as they need be for
critical manual focusing and DOF judgment. But that certainly
doesn't mean that they won't improve and be a valid option "when".
Click to expand...
I live in the now Bob and i'm assuming you do as well, we both
could be dead before "when" gets here.
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
We have to many features and choices as it is, more will just lead
to more posts by confused shoppers. We should have stopped at 31
flavors of ice cream IMO, but some nut just had to have that
chocolate covered cherry mocha almond fudge brownie ice cream.
sheeshhhhhh!
Click to expand...
I'm guessing that the only features that should be offered
photographers are the one that you personally find useful....
;o)
Click to expand...
Nope, you'd have guess wrong, but you are used to be wrong aren't
you Bob. I'm all for more features, i just don't want the ones I
find useful taken away by photographers like you.

--

http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root
Click to expand...
Well, since neither of us have crystal balls (as far as I know) I suppose we'll have to wait and see, won't we?

Hopefully we'll both be around a couple of years from now. My guess is that EVFs will have evolved sufficiently by then.

But as you say, I've been wrong before. I might be a little disappointed, but it won't kill me. ;o)

--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
BobTrips said:
Sarbu Alexandru-Cristian said:
BobTrips said:
I had checked the specs on a 20D and it seems that one can shoot
bursts of 25 frames at 5 fps. So if you don't notice a five second
blackout while the mirror is up, you just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
I don't get it. Where did you get the 5 second blackout? Do you
think the mirror will stay up all the time, until all the 25 frames
are taken?
Click to expand...
I haven't shot a burst on a dSLR.

Are you saying that the mirror flaps up and down between each shot?
Must sound like a little machine gun. ;o)
Click to expand...
I thought you knew what you were talking about Bob, i appologize for my ignorance or your ignorance.
Member said:
And talk about mirror-slap created vibration. Reminds me of some
cell phone options....
Member said:
Do you think an EVF camera have no viewfinder blackout?
Click to expand...
Some don't.

None need to. Just a matter of installing enough processing power.

--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Click to expand...
--

http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root
 
PaulyOly said:
The human eye blinks at 300-400 milliseconds.
Click to expand...
Only when heavily sedated:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/gmed/eja/2001/00000018/00000007/art00008

Median blink time is 95ms (range 80-110ms). Even when sedated the median is 210ms. Also, your pupil is only covered for a fraction of that time, so maybe blackout is about 20% of blink time, or around 20ms.

Maybe you think winking is blinking?

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
PaulyOly said:
BobTrips said:
Sarbu Alexandru-Cristian said:
BobTrips said:
I had checked the specs on a 20D and it seems that one can shoot
bursts of 25 frames at 5 fps. So if you don't notice a five second
blackout while the mirror is up, you just don't notice it.
Click to expand...
I don't get it. Where did you get the 5 second blackout? Do you
think the mirror will stay up all the time, until all the 25 frames
are taken?
Click to expand...
I haven't shot a burst on a dSLR.

Are you saying that the mirror flaps up and down between each shot?
Must sound like a little machine gun. ;o)
Click to expand...
I thought you knew what you were talking about Bob, i appologize
for my ignorance or your ignorance.
Click to expand...
A word other than "or" might be more appropriate.... ;o)
PaulyOly said:
PaulyOly said:
And talk about mirror-slap created vibration. Reminds me of some
cell phone options....
PaulyOly said:
Do you think an EVF camera have no viewfinder blackout?
Click to expand...
Some don't.

None need to. Just a matter of installing enough processing power.

--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Click to expand...
--

http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root
Click to expand...
--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
BobTrips said:
I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm using the wrong word or just don't
understand how dSLRs work.

Here's what I mean by "bursts". That's when you hold down the
shutter button and rip off a continuous stream of exposures.
"Continuous shooting" might be a better term.
Then, are you saying that the mirror flops up and down during a
burst, during continuous shooting? That's a legitimate question on
my part since I have not shot a burst, not done any continuous
shooting with a dSLR.
Click to expand...
Even during a continuous burst, at normal shutter speeds, It is just like a series of eye blinks. I do this all of the time. There is NO prolonged blackout period. Do yourself a favor and go to a store try out one of these cameras before criticizing them.
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Lots of us shoot in widely varied conditions. We experience the
need to shoot from positions other that with the camera at "eye
level". That means that if you are limited to an OVF then you've
either got to put your eyes in strange orientations or resort to
"point and guess" shooting.
Click to expand...
Taking pictures with a Nikon CP4500 was more a Point & Hope
proposition. It decided what it was going to focus on. I could
force it off its desired subject and back onto mine but only if
I was taking still lifes because MF was very time consuming. The
various viewing angles was useful but only indoors. Nothing could
be seen in the LCD in daylight. This was about the same with My
Bronica C with its waist level finder. This is the physics problem
that you are not addressing.
Click to expand...
You are talking about a camera that was released about four years
ago. Stuff is better.
Click to expand...
Yup, and they're called DSLRs.
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
You missed my point here. Not that many years back most
photography was done with some version of the Kodak Brownie. A
camera limited by a fixed, non-zoom lens, a single shutter speed,
no focusing, no meter, no Nada....
Click to expand...
I think you are confusing "picture taking" with "photography".
Look up Mathew B. Brady. Sure, he may not have had a fancy shutter
speed dial and his ISO may have been measured in fractions, but he
had an OVF that focused just fine. That was over a century ago.
Click to expand...
No, you are missing my point. If Brady could take excellent
photographs with his primitive gear, why are photographers no
longer using that type camera? Why have they chosen cameras with
more features?
Click to expand...
His cameras weighed a ton, he had to literally haul a wagon load of stuff with him to take each shot. He made his own film as he went along.

Now we get new cars based on air conditioned glove compartments and the number of cup holders. Marketing decided we needed more "features" the average consumer doesn't have a clue and a "photographer" can still take an excellent picture with a 30 year old camera with no features. I love digital but I mostly use speed, aperture priority or bulb and a lot of fill flash I don't need the camera deciding much of anything for me.
 
Antonio_2 said:
As I explained in other posts in
the thread I cannot accurately and quickly check focus,
Click to expand...
Regardless of other advantages you've mentioned, some of which are perfectly reasonable, if the photo is OOF enough for it to be obvious on an LCD, you'll know before you take the photo as it will be obviously OOF in an OVF. Focus confirmation isn't something that can be done easily without zooming on an LCD.
 
The Americans are torturing aliens in Area 51!

Please lets talk about something more important. like those you who want EVF please sell your DSLR and send me the money. Just click on my profile and email me privately, I will tell you how to securely send me money.

I know that lifting the DSLR up to your eye level may build up your biceps which may be unattractive to some of you. What I do to get around this is to hire a nice pretty college coed. She lifts the XT to my eyes so that both of MY arms are securely wrap around various parts of her anatomy. I find that doing this strengthens my forearm muscles but leave my biceps and triceps thin, and white, just what a metrosexual such as myself prefer.

While EVF is useful for such things as shooting up the skirts of the various women, may I suggest that you take my solution, I usually bring them back to my penthouse and let them try on various thongs, they would bend over and I can take pictures of them at my leisure. It is cold in NYC but I keep my penthouse warm.

Can we all take out EVF, OVF can shoot these things called pictures, they are very interesting, you can upload them to like Costco and get prints made out of them. I know that it is not as exciting or rewarding as aruging with people who you don't know, yet feel superior to.

Oh my! my forearms are getting tired, squeezing too hard. I must pace myself. See I'm taking pictures :)

Please keep on arguing!

--
if I made sense, I'm sorry
 
Hey Bob :)

Various parts, I tried to be equally attentive. I find by that by varying the coed and her "parts" I give my forearm muscles the cross-training they require. I'm a generalist and aim for a well-round skillset instead of just specializing in just say 36DD.
--
if I made sense, I'm sorry
 
dennis tennis said:
Hey Bob :)

Various parts, I tried to be equally attentive. I find by that by
varying the coed and her "parts" I give my forearm muscles the
cross-training they require. I'm a generalist and aim for a
well-round skillset instead of just specializing in just say 36DD.
--
if I made sense, I'm sorry
Click to expand...
Somehow I just don't think there's a "her" involved.

I'm guessing your flying solo ....

;o)

--
bob

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
EVF is the best way to use vs LCD to review the focus accuracy with an EVF camera. with playback zooming up to 12x, reviewing focus accuracy in EVF is very easy and bright without the burden of struggling to see it clearly the way you do in your LCD (be it P&S or DSLR).

--
exp1orer
my gallery: http://www.pbase.com/explorer

 
It's simple enough to prevent 'black-out'--just freeze the last frame of live preview before capture until the sensor is clear for live preview again. Preventing a freeze on the other hand--i.e. having the sensor provide a seamless live preview through the shot--would require a sensor that can capture full resolution images in live preview mode, something I have never seen.
 
You know, when we're talking about EVF vs OVF I assume we're talking about an eventual interchangeable lens camera with EVF, you know, like a DSLR with an EVF rather than an OVF (or both--and there are numerous ways in which the EVF can be implemented)

It would be rather pointless to compare a DSLR with a digicam...
 
exp1orer said:
EVF is the best way to use vs LCD to review the focus accuracy with
an EVF camera. with playback zooming up to 12x, reviewing focus
accuracy in EVF is very easy and bright without the burden of
struggling to see it clearly the way you do in your LCD (be it P&S
or DSLR).

--
exp1orer
my gallery: http://www.pbase.com/explorer

Click to expand...
There you go. You only have to remember to press the right button the right number of times to check the focus accuracy in what is STILL a tiny viewfinder. It probably doesn't take any longer than it takes the horses on the track to reach you, go on by and pass the finish line.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
Ya know, a preview of the captured image usually comes up by default on the EVF. And there's no rule saying EVF has to be tiny. In fact, I'd love it if someone releases a camera with a single large high resolution LCD (as in 2.5", 1 megapixel) that can be used as an EVF using something like photosolve's xtend-a-view. E.g. using Samsung's UFS process, a 2.5" LCD can have 1200*900 resolution, or 1.08 MP.
 
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