KenRockwell's Hand-on Review 18-200 VR

the venom wears on you....Not everyone is Bjorn, Thom, Ron R...but
they can still be some value...if you do not like...don't go
there...whatever happend to if you can't say something nice....?
--
Dave Cheatham
If his reviews were never challenged here then alot of folks would still be mislead by KR. It's impossible to say something nice sometimes. Most of what interests me here is opinions actual users of lenses have of their equipment. If they didn't like something then how can they say something nice? If better sources of information exist or a source exists that is utterly worthless then how can you make it sound nice? If a review is based on opinion gathered from a Nikon press release and not actually touching an item then where is the value?
--

Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the 3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.
 
When there were few samples, I posted in the forum that I found KR's review useful because I got a sense of how the lens would be.

After seeing so many samples and opinions posted in the forum, I do not think KR's review is so useful. He should be more objective when he expresses his thoughts. I would not call 18-200 sharp unless I mention "comparing with other 18-200." I also would notice the light falloff problem and soft 200mm image. I do not think he mentioned these two points. Maybe he was too glad that he received his lens from Adorama before anyone else that he failed to see the problems in the pictures he took. I do not question whether he has the lens or not, I question his way of all-praising, not-telling-the-whole-story PR-style writing. Also, in these days, samples should be mandatory....

An (200mm on 18-200) image speaks louder than words.
 
you know, I practically stopped posting because of this kind of negastive and hostile thread...

My thoughts:

1. The guy posts a LOT of information. It's great to get info from anyone who takes the time to share what he thinks. It's up to us to evaluate for ourselves - but I think we should thank everybody who DOES take the time to share. So, regardless of anything else, I think we should all say "Thanks" to KR:-)

2. Everybody got copies of that lense right around the 23rd. Why would KR not wait for another 2-3 days if his lense arrived only then? Do you really think that it would make a difference to him. or to anyone for that matter if the review got published a couple days later? This is so conspiracy theory for god's sake... Why not tie him to 9/11 as well since we're at it? (joke, guys, joke here, lighten up!!)

3. KR is very clear abt the fact that he evaluates equipment "hands-on" - it's his opinions, and he is not a pixel peeper. As a reminder, many of the same crowd who criticize KR also do the same to Reichman (luminous landscape), on the same basis - ie Reichman also does hands on reviews rather than quantitative. It's fine to disagree with their opinion - why should we assume they are lying? To me this attitude is that of the poor loser who accuses the winner of cheating... What if I accused Tony of lying abt the info he reported abt Adorama simply because I disagreed with him on KR? In fact, I think it is totally possible for KR to have received his lens when he says he did, for Ado to do a first ship to KR, and for Ado to tell Tony that the first commercial lens was shipped on the 26th - believe me I have seen much worse in terms of mixed communications.

4. For brokenz only - I really enjoy your posts and have for a long time. In fact, when I see your name I will read your post even if the thread is not that interesting to me... Thanks for sharing so much! In this case, I think if you read again what was written, you might find out that nobody was out to insult you - I truly think you read something that was not there. As an outside reader who was not a part of the thread, I don't think that any of the people you were arguing with in any way were demeaning or insulting - my 2c.

Best to all,

--
Best - Michel
 
Hi Camisdad:

What it comes down to is not a difference of opiniion with Ken Rockwell about a lens. I share his positive view of the 18-200 lens, althought I do believe he glossed over some of its shortcomings. In fact, I bought one based upon preliminary comments and samples in this forum. I also agree with many of Mr. Rockwell's perspectives on the importance of the photographer over equipment.

The primary question for me is Ken Rockwell's basic integrity, and the resulting quality of his information. Unlike me or you, he presents himself, and is perceived by many, as an authority on photography. They trust in and rely upon him.

Althought it may sound "poisonous and negative" to you, and some others apparently find it difficult to believe that Mr. Rockwell could do such a thing, from what I have seen and know so far, I believe he's not telling the truth about conducting a "real" test on a real lens. This opinion takes into account his prior history with "reviews" and the information I received from Adorama, as well as threads in this forum about Adorama's first delivery of the lens in question.

The fact that Mr. Rockwell is a highly controversial figure and the subject of often heated and disparaging threads in a variety of photograhy forums may be strictly coincidental. But is it likely to be a mere accident that so many people find his information, integrity, and most of all, his "reviews" to be questionable? Phil Askey, Bjorn Rorslett, Ron Resnik, Tom Hogan, and Michael Reichmann aren't questioned and criticized by so many in such a fundamental way. Are we all "sore losers" as you put it? Why, for example, are Mr. Rockwell's conclusions often at odds with the experiences of people who actually do own and use the equipment he supposedly used? Why are his determinations so often rooted in personal biases and against hard data? These disparities cannot be philosophically rationalized by his mantra that "equipment doesn't matter" or his ridicule of all empirical data as "pixel peeping". Where are his sample photographs from his "tests"? (Mr. Rockwell is hardly shy about displaying his other work).

It's a bit ironic that Mr. Rockwell is now delighting in the joys of his new D200, a camera with a price and characteristics that he previously and vocally considered to be inferior to his prior lesser equipment, and a self-indulgent distraction from the importance of the photographer.

While you've declared that I and other Rockwell questioners are "sore losers", "poisonous and negative", we've explained why we have questions about Mr. Rockwell and the "review" without ad hominem attacks on you.

None of us presently have conclusive proof on whether he actually received and "tested" an 18-200 from Adorama in order to conduct his "review". You continue to believe in his integrity; I find it questionable given his prior history and the discrepancies in dates. We each have each stated our opinions on this matter.

In the meantime, you'll continue to go to his website because you find it useful and believe in him, and I'll go here and elsewhere, because I am convinced that Phil Askey, Michael Reichmann, Tom Hogan, Fred Miranda, Rob Galbraith, and Bjorn Rorslett, and their forums, have a great deal more knowledge, information and, yes integrity, than Mr. Rockwell.

We can both love photography while we disagree on these points.

Best wishes for the New Year.

Tony
 
I must be a "dimest" person then... what is your point... you rail on me for one word... I did say 'apparent lack of veracity" because I still give him the benefit of the doubt... you have given three easy examples of his lack of expertise that some are so quick to defend... if you go through the rest of his site you will probably find more examples of opinion without experience... do you see a thread... where is the logic in your defense of him? I have not used the equipment and say so but here is my opinion of the equipment and you should read and accept what I say... do you really think that is okay? I don't... I think there should be a higher standard... maybe a disclosure when you enter his website... there are many more sites where accurate opinion is given... thank you for pointing out I am a dim wit... I will however continue to enjoy your posts and what appears to be true experience when giving an opinion...
--
Seeing Him is all I see...
Veni, Vedi, Snappi !!!
 
I was in no way trying to imply that you were dim, and I am also not trying to say that Ken Rockwell is great, its just that I find it odd how hated he is here for hosting a website where he very clearly states that what he puts there is only his opinion not scientific tests and should be taken as such.

This is the first line in his section "about the test reports"

"This site is my personal opinion based on what gear works well for me and my particular style of photography. To use words of Ansel Adams on page 193 of his autobiography, this site is my "aggressive personal opinion," and not a "logical presentation of fact.""

We all do the same thing here, we state our personal opinions. All I want to know is why cant he? especially when he says that is what he is doing?

Again, I never meant to imply that you were dim in any way

Have a great New Year
I must be a "dimest" person then... what is your point... you rail
on me for one word... I did say 'apparent lack of veracity" because
I still give him the benefit of the doubt... you have given three
easy examples of his lack of expertise that some are so quick to
defend... if you go through the rest of his site you will probably
find more examples of opinion without experience... do you see a
thread... where is the logic in your defense of him? I have not
used the equipment and say so but here is my opinion of the
equipment and you should read and accept what I say... do you
really think that is okay? I don't... I think there should be a
higher standard... maybe a disclosure when you enter his website...
there are many more sites where accurate opinion is given... thank
you for pointing out I am a dim wit... I will however continue to
enjoy your posts and what appears to be true experience when giving
an opinion...
--
Seeing Him is all I see...
Veni, Vedi, Snappi !!!
--
Edward

Lenses listed in profile

 
I agree with what you say. It is anyway a shame to gossip on any site like Ken Rockwell.

For sure, Ken is very close to Nikon and gets, despite of what he says, some advantages and extra services from Nikon in some ways I do not want to talk about since I do not know this in an axact way. Also, Ken never miss an occasion to make spam for Adorama in any of his reports.

That all he writes is his opinion is clear, he claims this clearly and one might agree with him or not. I write with Ken sometimes and we keep good contacts and opinion exchanges.

To get real tets and objective ones, I use this site :

http://www.imaging-resource.com/DIGCAMA.HTM

The Imaging resource site is neutral and one can see here all tests shot with all cameras and with same persons and same samples.

This site can give you a clear view of what a camera does and how it performs. Pictures are downloadable in full camera size and this gives you a real idea of quality of just any camera.

So let's be happy that some sites like this one or Ken Rockwell's exist and lets give to this people the recognizing they should get for doing such a good work. Ken was one of the first, allways, to show and give a report about most Nikon cameras and Canon's as well. Note that concerning Canon, he is objective and gives real impressions of what they have better and what they have less good compared to other cameras, Canon and Nikon included.

I think also that nobody needs to teach Ken how to shoot a good picture. the prizes and awards and the publishing of his pictures in many popular photo-magazines proves this in a sure way. On the other side, if anyone of you thinks to be a good and inverted photographer, he will read Ken Rockwell's Opinion Report and compares if what ever it says matches with your own. The best opinion is your own anyway. Test yourself first and find out what's true and what's not.

This said, enjoy the end of the year and for those who bought it and wait, Happy D200-6, and for all others, get a D200 first prior to e able to enjoy the new year.
 
I have the 18-200 and haven't noticed 'the light fall-off problem' or the 'unsharp at 200mm problem' or the 'blowing air in my eye problem via the viewfinder problem' or the 'auto-zoom' problem... I can't believe I'm defending Rockwell but maybe his didn't have these 'problems'.

It amazes me how fairly isolated problems reported on the internet turn into these huge issues. Not to make light on some people's problems and it really sucks to have paid money for something that doesn't work correctly but come on...They way some people are making it sound is that the 18-200 VR is the photographic version of the Corvair.

--
http://www.pbase.com/tfultz
 
As in movie reviews, I can tell a lot from a biased reviewer as well as an "unbiased" (if there is such a thing) one.

As long as I know the biases going in, I can glean good info, and even have some fun.

I can read Rockwell exactly, he's not surreptitious about it, and I find it all rather entertaining.

--
Z-Man
 
I am relaxed Edward... a little patronizing... I guess the fact he reviews equipment that he has never used is okay with you an others... it is not his opinion in that case, it is fiction... so be it... Happy New Year to you too... I really do enjoy your posts on equipment and have been interested in your trek into primes... I have been going down that road too...
--
Seeing Him is all I see...
Veni, Vedi, Snappi !!!
 
BTW one thing worth noting is that KR talked about the bokeh at 100 and 200mm is poor. I am not surprised because from the samples in the forum I notice the bokeh is similar to R1, which is not good. Do anyone know how the bokeh is at other focal length in between 100-200? Thanks for sharing!
 
Hi Tony

I too have no problem with Adorama (ordered from them many times and they have always been friendly, helpful and "straight"). Nor do I have a problem with Ken having a commercial arrangement with them. As well, I believe his blogs are typically useless. So we're in "violent agreement" here :).

My only point was that ihe would be discrediting Adorama by mentioning them if it weren't true, and mentioning them adds zero to his article (no one would have questioned him saying he bought it himself without naming a store). So why do it at all unless he really did get an early lens there?
--
Jerry
 
Also interesting as most others who own the lens on this forum and who have mentioned + and- call bokeh one of its strong points. So this is a small defencse of KR showing at least some "straight goods" (as you may tell from my other posts on this thread I'm not a believer in him, but not vitriolic either).

So it seems bokeh is, like most things in "art", either a function of the viewers' tastes or their experience levels (i.e., compared to what?).
--
Jerry
 
Hi Jerry:

Since we're speculating on what may be the motivation, consider this scenario as one possibility:

Mr. Rockwell is well aware of the controversy over his "reviews" of equipment which he has not actually used or even touched;

Mr. Rockwell is well aware of the controversy over his pronouncements on what is "good" and "bad" in photography;

Mr. Rockwell is well aware that he is regarded in some quarters as a Nikon "shill";

The ongoing controversy, particularly the frequent and usually heated threads on various internet photography forums, generates additional traffic to his website, which enhances his position with his sponsors;

But that same controversy is not entirely of the quality or supportive nature that Mr. Rockwell needs to get click throughs to his sponsors' websites. His sponsors are understandably and ultimately interested in selling, rather than controversy, because they too are businesses;

Mr. Rockwell is a savvy businessman and an effective self-promoter. He understands that at time his personal preferences, and even his ego, must yield to commercial reality;

In order to improve his credibility and lessen the controversy, and in order to further improve the cash flow, Mr. Rockwell, like most business people, decides to adapt;

In order to diminsh the roar of pesky people who find his methods and opinions questionable, and to further enhance his credibility, Mr. Rockwell realizes that he must include more "pixel-peeping" and "measurebating" type of information in his "reviews", even if he has repeatedly ridiculed this approach in the past, partly to excuse the lack of empirical testing in his "reviews" (difficult to do without actually having the equipment);

Mr. Rockwell also realizes that he must tell people that he has actually had a sample to test, for this purpose;

Mr. Rockwell, an intelligent man, realizes that there are indeed differences between fiction, speculation, and a review;

Mr. Rockwell, upon the advice of his lawyers, has already included disclamatory language on his website, and in his reviews and essays, explaining that he usually has not actually used the equipment in question, and that his writings shouldn't be treated any more seriously than graffiitti in a bathroom, and that he merely does it for "fun";

Mr. Rockwell realizes that these truthful acknowledgements are only feeding his detractors, even if his fans seem to miss their significance;

Mr. Rockwell realizes that he must do some real work and actually test some equipment if he is going to continue to be successful in the competitive and fast changing world of the internet;

Mr. Rockwell realizes his competitors -- hard working, knowledgeable, and careful photographic website owners like Phil Askey, Tom Hogan, etc. -- who he has implicitly ridiculed as "pixel peepers" and "measurebators", aren't going to go away just because of his innuendo about people like them;

Mr. Rockwell has been seduced by the real qualities of his new D200, and, depsite herculean efforts to resist, he cannot but admit that equipment may not make a difference, but it sure is fun. His loyal D70 is quickly forgotten;

Mr. Rockwell writes a "hands on review" for a "production sample", expecting to get a lens from Adorama because he ordered one on November 1, 2005;

The "hands on" lanaguage is, in Mr. Rockwell's view, justified, because he was handed a D200 with an 18-200, by a Nikon rep, for a few minutes at a show or store, or he played with a pre-production sample;

Mr. Rockwell has an arrangement to promote Adorama and has links from his website and "reviews"l to them (with a fee generating agreement);

Pursuant to his arrangement with Adorama, Mr. Rockwell includes links in his 18-200 "review" to the Adorama website, and says he has ordered the lens from them;

Mr. Rockwell also includes language in the beginning of his review, accusing Adorama's competitors of price-gouging, and erroneously assuring his fans that the lens can now be purchased from Adorama for $40 below MSRP - $669.00;

The review, like most of his prior ones, is based heavily upon Nikon's press kit and specifications, and Mr. Rockwell's strong opinions about what he likes and doesn't;

Mr. Rockwell also takes into account his strong "leaning toward" Nikon, which may also be commercially enhanced;

Mr. Rockwell doesn't receive the lens when the review is written, but he publishes the review anyway, because the 18-200 is likely to turn out to be a 'hot" lens and his fans are clamoring to know what he thinks of it;

Mr. Rockwell expects to receive a lens by 12/23, because he sees or hears that Nikon is starting to ship the first ones to its dealers, before that date;

Mr. Rockwell prepares an updated review, stating that he has now received the lens from his 11/1/05 order, and adds that to his website on 12/23;

Mr. Rockwsell still does not receive his lens, on 12/23 or 12/24, because, despite their best efforts, Adorama has not received any pieces, not even a demo (which Adorama does not request and which Nikon is not in the policy of sending to its resellers);

Christmas passes without a delivery of the 18-200 lens;

Adorama finally receives the first 18-200s from Nikon on 12/26. One of the lenses is sent to Mr. Rockwell, who receives it shortly thereafter.

Merely idle speculation, mind you, but you asked for it ; )

Best wishes for the New Year.

Tony
 

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