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F707 flash oddities

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Andy said:
Herein lies the probable firmware bug: During the color processing
(after the picture is taken), the same WB data should be applied,
but somehow isn't. A simplistic way of looking at many firmware
bugs is that something controlled my a microprocessor doesn't work
as intended. Because of the complexity of the firmware, the problem
may happen intermittently. I have seen firmware bugs in other
products that are reproducible 100% of the time and some that
happen only once a month or so.
Click to expand...
The unique aspect of this this case is that the bug is working its magic neither infrequently nor consistently, nor 100% of the time. I didn't keep track, but I would guess 40 - 60% of the time, though without any identifiable pattern.

I tend to agree with your theory that the error is occurring during post-recording processing of the image, though I don't necessarily agree that the same WB data should be applied for each flash photo. Indeed, I am thinking/speculating that it is either in the process of determining an adjustment value for the preset WB data, or the process of applying that adjustment value to the preset WB data, that the error occurs.

Though I'm not an expert in computer/microprocessor programming, past experience has made me aware of at least several mechanisms by which an extremely minor difference between seemingly identical photos would result in either the WB data being properly or improperly adjusted (including not being adjusted at all), and that this error would present itself on frequent, but inconsistent, basis.

Ultimately, Sony is going to need to figure out of this is firmware, or hardware based.
 
Andy said:
Unfortunately, "mashing" is not the problem. I half-pressed the
shutter button on all of my test shots (you have to helf-press to
set focus correctly) and waited for the "OK" signal.
Regarding the pre-flash, does your F707 do that? Mine doesn't.
Click to expand...
Good question, Andy. I have never seen a "pre-flash" that I can detect, but I went through a whole series of photos that establish that I'm getting TTL metering of my flash. Should we be able to actually notice a distinct pre-flash?
 
I can see the pre flash
Howdy said:
Andy said:
Unfortunately, "mashing" is not the problem. I half-pressed the
shutter button on all of my test shots (you have to helf-press to
set focus correctly) and waited for the "OK" signal.
Regarding the pre-flash, does your F707 do that? Mine doesn't.
Click to expand...
Good question, Andy. I have never seen a "pre-flash" that I can
detect, but I went through a whole series of photos that establish
that I'm getting TTL metering of my flash. Should we be able to
actually notice a distinct pre-flash?
Click to expand...
 
You can see the pre flash if you look in a mirror as you're taking the picture. It's really fast.
Howdy said:
Andy said:
Unfortunately, "mashing" is not the problem. I half-pressed the
shutter button on all of my test shots (you have to helf-press to
set focus correctly) and waited for the "OK" signal.
Regarding the pre-flash, does your F707 do that? Mine doesn't.
Click to expand...
Good question, Andy. I have never seen a "pre-flash" that I can
detect, but I went through a whole series of photos that establish
that I'm getting TTL metering of my flash. Should we be able to
actually notice a distinct pre-flash?
Click to expand...
 
Andy well indeed that's too bad that that was not the cause of it. ;-(

I do not have my F707 in hand... been waiting on Sears to deliver it since 10/10/01... they tell me tomorrow 10/18/01 now and my salesman said he would cancel my order if it is not in tomorrow... I just may let him do that on me! But with Sears great return policy, I may as well give it a whirl and check this symptom out first hand to see if I can tame it or live with it. If not I will simply return it for a full refund and wait for the improvements to come out on later models or competitor's models... I've always stated that I am not tied to one Brand name. ;-) Whoever makes the best at the time that I want it, gets my business. plain and simple.

BTW, I found that link that mentions about the double pre-flash then flalsh routine... here it is, you all can go read it yourselves at:

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/1285

Hope you all find a work around or defiinite cause.

Willyee.
Andy said:
Willyee said:
I've read that some are not seeing the double flash when they take
their flash pics, so I was just wondering that maybe some of you
are forgetting to half press the shutter button to allow the F707
to setup the exposure and WB properly. Can all you current owners
with F707 in hand verify that you (in all the excitement) are not
just "mashing" the shutter release button? FYI, "mashing" is the
term used for when you just press hard on the shutter button all
the way down in one snap, thus not allowing the camera to adjust
itself properly. Do you all see the pre-flash before the real
flash? You are supposed to see one flash (the pre-flash) which is
the camera setting itself up to the flash lighting, and then the
second flash for when it actually takes the picture. Please let us
know if this might be the case or not. With all due respect for
all those who do know about mashing, I am not knocking your
intelligence, so don't take it that way. :-)
I am just trying to get to the bottom of this dilema. :-)

Thanks!

Willyee.
Andy said:
Andy58717 said:
If the camera is only applying a known, unchanging preset without
any adjustment, it seems extremely improbable (to me, at least)
that the result would be the inconsistent, and unpatterned, results
that we are seeing.
Click to expand...
Herein lies the probable firmware bug: During the color processing
(after the picture is taken), the same WB data should be applied,
but somehow isn't. A simplistic way of looking at many firmware
bugs is that something controlled my a microprocessor doesn't work
as intended. Because of the complexity of the firmware, the problem
may happen intermittently. I have seen firmware bugs in other
products that are reproducible 100% of the time and some that
happen only once a month or so.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I gotta confirm Bryan's bad news re: mashing is not the problem. This was one of my first ideas, since I am new to the half-press routine, so I tested that possibility first. Wasn't a mashing problem at all. Indeed, I learned that, at least if relying upon the attached flash in forced flash mode, the camera won't take a picture until the flash is charged.

Sorry to hear that you are a flash photographer, because it isn't looking good. I haven't seen any posts by anybody stating that, after thoroughly and carefully tested their 707's to test for blue-cast flash pics, they found that they were lucky enough to have a camera that absolutely does not have the problem.
 
Old Ed said:
It COULD be that there's a bit too much whining and
knashing of teeth about this. Every tool has limitations
you have to work with and work around; and most tools
have quirks. None are perfect.
Click to expand...
While I think that the "Sony colors" complaints are largely trolls, this one's a real problem. The color with flash is either very good or very bad, and we haven't figured out what makes the difference. And we've had quite a few smart people trying quite hard.

I've just called Sony's technical information center in Japan, and they said they'll call me back.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
Good show David J. Littleboy! Please let us know if anything they come back with...!

I'm real concerned because this puts a dampener on what I wanted in this otherwise nice camera.

Thanks!

Willyee.
David J. Littleboy said:
Old Ed said:
It COULD be that there's a bit too much whining and
knashing of teeth about this. Every tool has limitations
you have to work with and work around; and most tools
have quirks. None are perfect.
Click to expand...
While I think that the "Sony colors" complaints are largely trolls,
this one's a real problem. The color with flash is either very good
or very bad, and we haven't figured out what makes the difference.
And we've had quite a few smart people trying quite hard.

I've just called Sony's technical information center in Japan, and
they said they'll call me back.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Click to expand...
 
Send them to Uly's BOCS site and ask them if they ever fixed the problem:

http://www.pioneeris.net/ashton/F505V/BOCS/before_after.htm

MAC
David J. Littleboy said:
Old Ed said:
It COULD be that there's a bit too much whining and
knashing of teeth about this. Every tool has limitations
you have to work with and work around; and most tools
have quirks. None are perfect.
Click to expand...
While I think that the "Sony colors" complaints are largely trolls,
this one's a real problem. The color with flash is either very good
or very bad, and we haven't figured out what makes the difference.
And we've had quite a few smart people trying quite hard.

I've just called Sony's technical information center in Japan, and
they said they'll call me back.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Click to expand...
 
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