KenRockwell's Hand-on Review 18-200 VR

Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see what you three have been working on. Just because some of you like Rockwell to such a degree is no reason for any of you to start throwing around insults like this is grade school.

So once again, put your money where your mouth is. Show some of your work here or in another thread. Let's see what you've accomplished this week. Measurebators is often the call of those that need an excuse for their sorry pics. Witness KR's site.
--

Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the 3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.

I agree with you that equipment can become such an obsession that people neglect the art and humanity of photography. But it is also true that knowing one's tools has value. That's why people here are constantly asking questions about how to do things or what to use. Neither extreme -- obsession with equipment and "pixel peeping" versus "equipment is completely irrelevant" is correct.

This is the most balanced view of Ken Rockwell that I've come across:

"Mandatory warning: Ken Rockwell is well-known within many photographic circles for his -- how can I put it diplomatically -- "less than perfectly informed" opinions. For example, he'll frequently review equipment based on press releases alone without even laying eyes upon the equipment in question (often vehemently arguing against the experiences and first-hand knowledge of those who actually own and use said equipment). He's famous for his chauvinism and shilling toward a certain camera brand -- doesn't take more than a few pages before it becomes obvious. And he holds many rather odd and apparantly arbitrary views on "the way things should be" in photography. For example, he insists that a "professional" camera is defined by having a 1/500s max sync speed, which disqualifies all four of the current-production models in both the Nikon and Canon lineup of professional DSLR's (Nikon's D2X and D2H, Canon's 1DmkII and 1DsmkII) but which also coincidentally qualifies the decidedly amateur and entry-level camera he owns as a "professional" camera. Why this moniker means so much to him is beyond me....During his intermittent moments of lucidity, however, Rockwell does produce many useful how-to's and the occasional amusing essay, such as his Seven Levels of Photographers. Ultimately though, Rockwell is so controversial and hit-and-miss with his opinions that just mentioning his name is enough to start a flame war on many forums."

From: http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/39864

Take it, like everything else said on the internet, with whatever amount of salt you consider appropriate.

Best Wishes for the New Year.

Tony

Don't you think it's possible that he got his from Adorama before they started shipping them out to other customers?

If you had a web site that generated as many click-throughs to Adorama at KR's site does, you'd raise high holy hell if they didn't ship you the first one they received from Nikon.

brokenz said:

Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see what you three have
been working on. Just because some of you like Rockwell to such a
degree is no reason for any of you to start throwing around insults
like this is grade school.

Click to expand...

I didn't insult anyone.

brokenz said:

So once again, put your money where your mouth is. Show some of
your work here or in another thread. Let's see what you've
accomplished this week. Measurebators is often the call of those
that need an excuse for their sorry pics. Witness KR's site.

Click to expand...

Lighten up dude....I just agreed that the amount of animosity on this board toward KR seems overboard to me. If you don't like his site, dont read it.

Can't others state that they disagree without being shouted down?

Tony,

Up till 12/23, the date on which Ken allegedly got his lens, he had the language that he played with a manufactured sample for one day and the previous version of his review of the lens was based on that (guess he could have called it preview to be more precise).

After 12/23, he changed the language because his own lens arrived and i guess he played with it more and hence a new version of his review.

To me that's logical. What do you think, irregardless previously whether he reviewed other lenses without ever touching them (another topic on another day)

Happy New Year all

Hi Elon:

My understanding is that Adorama had NO 18-200s until after Mr. Rockwell's "final" review.

My post above, entitled "A Balanced View of Rockwell" pretty much summarizes my disagreements and agreements with his approach, and why Mr. Rockwell is often considered "controversial".

Best wishes for the New Year.

Tony

Whoa!! Sorry to have hit a nerve there. I certainly didn't mean to insult anybody.

I suppose if I have an opinion that is not widely held - I will just keep it to myself.

This sort of over-the-top response to conflicting opinions is the reason I so rarely post on this site. Not enough toelerance or moderation.

brokenz said:

Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see what you three have
been working on. Just because some of you like Rockwell to such a
degree is no reason for any of you to start throwing around insults
like this is grade school.

So once again, put your money where your mouth is. Show some of
your work here or in another thread. Let's see what you've
accomplished this week. Measurebators is often the call of those
that need an excuse for their sorry pics. Witness KR's site.
--
Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the
3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.

Click to expand...

ebski said:

brokenz said:

Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see what you three have
been working on. Just because some of you like Rockwell to such a
degree is no reason for any of you to start throwing around insults
like this is grade school.

Click to expand...

I didn't insult anyone.

Click to expand...

I quote you, "well said." You didn't make a direct insult but you sure made it clear that you didn't have a problem with said insult.

ebski said:

ebski said:

So once again, put your money where your mouth is. Show some of
your work here or in another thread. Let's see what you've
accomplished this week. Measurebators is often the call of those
that need an excuse for their sorry pics. Witness KR's site.

Click to expand...

Lighten up dude....I just agreed that the amount of animosity on
this board toward KR seems overboard to me. If you don't like his
site, dont read it.

Can't others state that they disagree without being shouted down?

Click to expand...

I'm not shouting you down and actually you didn't do anything but agree with the exact wording of someone else. Maybe you should make your stand a little clearer from the start next time.
--

Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the 3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.

Toad said:

Whoa!! Sorry to have hit a nerve there. I certainly didn't mean to
insult anybody.

Click to expand...

The insult was contained in the post to which you replied...

Toad said:

Exactly. If we spent as much time taking photos, as we spend
over-analyzing every tiny feature of every piece of equipment -
think how good our photos would be...

Click to expand...

If that wasn't agreeing with the insult made then I don't know what was. I simply asked to see what you or others are doing this week. I couldn't find any recent posts where any of you attempted to share any work, offer up any technique, or do much else other than measurbate. I guess some people love throwing out the "measurbate" word but can't take it being directed back at them.

Toad said:

I suppose if I have an opinion that is not widely held - I will
just keep it to myself.

Click to expand...

No need to get overboard.

Toad said:

This sort of over-the-top response to conflicting opinions is the
reason I so rarely post on this site. Not enough toelerance or
moderation.

Click to expand...

You could post or not post. I will not pretend to care less either way. If you can't take a little mild debate then perhaps it's best if you just stick to the TV. It doesn't talk back.

Toad said:

brokenz said:

Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see what you three have
been working on. Just because some of you like Rockwell to such a
degree is no reason for any of you to start throwing around insults
like this is grade school.

So once again, put your money where your mouth is. Show some of
your work here or in another thread. Let's see what you've
accomplished this week. Measurebators is often the call of those
that need an excuse for their sorry pics. Witness KR's site.
--
Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the
3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--

Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the 3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.

brokenz said:

I simply asked to see what you or others are doing this week.
I couldn't find any recent posts where any of you attempted to
share any work, offer up any technique, or do much else other than
measurbate.

Click to expand...

OK - I'll play. I showed some photos earlier today in this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=16461888

As far as measurebating, I doubt you will find a post of mine that does that. Don't believe in it - buy a good camera that meets your needs and then use your talent to get the best of it.

I don't understand why you have such a hard time with what I said in this thread - you said virtually the same thing in this other thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=16454188

Again sorry if something I said (or TDH said - and I agreed with) hit a nerve with you - if it insyulted you, it was unintentional.

Can we go back to being civil now?

Best Regards
Toad

Toad said:

brokenz said:

I simply asked to see what you or others are doing this week.
I couldn't find any recent posts where any of you attempted to
share any work, offer up any technique, or do much else other than
measurbate.

Click to expand...

OK - I'll play. I showed some photos earlier today in this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=16461888

Click to expand...

OK.

Toad said:

As far as measurebating, I doubt you will find a post of mine that
does that. Don't believe in it - buy a good camera that meets your
needs and then use your talent to get the best of it.

I don't understand why you have such a hard time with what I said
in this thread - you said virtually the same thing in this other
thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=16454188

Click to expand...

Not even close to the same.

Toad said:

Again sorry if something I said (or TDH said - and I agreed with)
hit a nerve with you - if it insyulted you, it was unintentional.

Can we go back to being civil now?

Click to expand...

If the insults are done then I'm done. I fail to see where I ceased being civil but my apologies also.

Toad said:

Best Regards
Toad

Click to expand...

--

Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the 3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.

Although I don't ever approach anything Ken Rockwell says as "well-informed", I must admit, unless he's on Adorama's payroll, it just doesn't make sense for him to write he got his lens there unless it were true. Is it possible in exchenge for mentioning their name he received their first shipped item (that may have been designated for demonstrations)? Nobody would have cared where he got it, so there was no reason to mention it in his article if it left him open to questions of veracity.
--
Jerry

brokenz said:

Have you ever looked at the photos Ken Rockwell has on his site?

Click to expand...

I always wonder about why no one brings that up.

Hi Jerry:

If you follow the link in the original post to the "review" in question, you can see the sales links for the lens to Adorama. There are similar links in other "reviews" by Mr. Rockwell.

I assume that, since his website is commercial, he has a fee-generating arrangement with Adorama. But, Mr. Rockwell and Adorama would know better than anyone else.

Adorama is my main photography store (I live in NYC). I consider them to be reliable and honest. I also do not have a problem with a commercial photography website receiving compensation from sponsors. That type of arrangement allows many useful and informative websites to exist.

My disagreements and agreements with Mr. Rockwell's approach are already summarized in my post above entitled "A Balanced View of Rockwell". The chronology of his intial and final review, and information on when Adorama received the first 18-200s from Nikon, is also set forth in the thread above, and in other threads in this forum.

Best wishes for the New Year.

Tony

His apparent lack of veracity is the point... rarely has he touched a piece of equipment that he has reviewed... Too many noobees go to his site and get mislead or misinformed....
--
Seeing Him is all I see...
Veni, Vedi, Snappi !!!

Hi Flash:

Yes, that's my chief gripe with Ken Rockwell.

And, although some may find it insulting, there does seem to be some inverse correlation between a person's experience and equipment level, and their opinion of Rockwell's "reviews".

Rockwell is right when he tells newbies or people who don't have the most expensive equipment that THEY matter much more than the equipment. He's right when he's their champion against the onslaught of those who flaunt expensive cameras and preach that equipment is the foundation to all photographic improvement.

But he's wrong when he betrays the trust of the same people he purports to champion.

Best wishes for the New Year.

Tony

the venom wears on you....Not everyone is Bjorn, Thom, Ron R...but they can still be some value...if you do not like...don't go there...whatever happend to if you can't say something nice....?
--
Dave Cheatham

Of his lens reviews, and yes he some times does writeups of lenses he has little or no experience with, but he always says something like this

"I've played with this push-pull zoom once but never photographed with it. I put my comments here because people are always asking."

or this

"I have not used it, but when I actually played with one it deserves mention because it's very different than you would gather based on the catalog."

or this

"Honestly I've not seen one yet. Since people ask, it's probably just like the non-D lens: super sharp and very inexpensive."

these are quotes from three of the reviews where he did not actually use the lens. He seems to make this very clear even to the dimest person.

You say "rarely has he touched a piece of equipment that he has reviewed" but if you really read his writeups it would seem you are wrong. in every review where he has actually used the lens he puts the date of the review (or update of the review) or some comment as to quality after the listing of each lens and when he hasn't actually used the equipment he states it right up front.

flashfenton said:

His apparent lack of veracity is the point... rarely has he touched
a piece of equipment that he has reviewed... Too many noobees go to
his site and get mislead or misinformed....
--
Seeing Him is all I see...
Veni, Vedi, Snappi !!!

Click to expand...

--
Edward

Lenses listed in profile

Heya Brokenz,

I'm not any of the guys whose comments you decided to go after, but in their defense...

The first guy just criticized the forums and this discussion in general as being full of measurebating and not so much about photography. To a point I agree. I think there is a certain amount of said "measurebating" that is useful to people, and then there is the unnecessary comparison of things like image quality between 18-200 and 18-70 or 17-55 and 28-70. There's just so much to cameras and lenses that gets sucked up by quality control tolerance that such close comparisons are practically invalid. 50mm f1.4 and 50mm f1.8 prime sharpness comparison is another one. It's usually with regard to sharpness, which is why I'm not a huge fan of sharpness comparisons unless the differences are night and day.

Those who agreed weren't necessarily stating that discrediting KR's opinion was being overly analytical and a "measurebator", just that this forum is full of them and it is IS an opinion of KR's that I also happen to agree with.

I've commented a number of times that lenses like the 18-200 will prove themselves with real photographs when the opportunities to take them arise. The endless comparisons to other lenses is tiring and silly to me, but it's a new lens and the buyers are insecure and need SOMETHING to be certain their lens will serve them well. Quite honestly, when I picked up my 180mm F/2.8D and my 45mm F/2.8P, there were very few good quality images that I felt reflected the potential of the lenses so I did comparison tests because I didn't have great opportunities to take nice "real" photos. Quite honestly, most of the photos that get posted in these forums and on PBase from those lenses are mediocre and don't tell me anything about what the lens should be capable of. I tend to find better samples on Xitek forums (Chinese) or sometimes on PhotoSIG.

But because of those tests I took and the few real world samples giving me suspicions, my 180mm is now at Nikon. Some of this measurebation isn't all bad...but I do agree that forums like this one tend to take it to useless extremes.

You've seen photos that I've posted so I don't think I need to post more to try to validate my opinion. I'm not a great photographer but I at least go out there and try to get stuff from time to time. And while I do comparisons and look at lots of test photos that would never be framed or printed, I agree with them that the forums have taken measurebation to an almost unhealthy extreme.

Tierdaen said:

Heya Brokenz,

I'm not any of the guys whose comments you decided to go after, but
in their defense...

The first guy just criticized the forums and this discussion in
general as being full of measurebating and not so much about
photography. To a point I agree. I think there is a certain

Click to expand...

To a point I agree also. His actual point was to insult by insinuating those that disliked KR were "elitist measurbaters." Those that like Ken I say live and let live. Those that don't the same. It's when the insults fly that I wonder what goes on in certain people's minds.

Tierdaen said:

amount of said "measurebating" that is useful to people, and then
there is the unnecessary comparison of things like image quality
between 18-200 and 18-70 or 17-55 and 28-70. There's just so much

Click to expand...

I agree.

Tierdaen said:

to cameras and lenses that gets sucked up by quality control
tolerance that such close comparisons are practically invalid.
50mm f1.4 and 50mm f1.8 prime sharpness comparison is another one.
It's usually with regard to sharpness, which is why I'm not a huge
fan of sharpness comparisons unless the differences are night and
day.

Click to expand...

Sometimes the subtle differences really are interesting (Miljenko's frequent tests come to mind) but in general we seem to agree.

Tierdaen said:

Those who agreed weren't necessarily stating that discrediting KR's
opinion was being overly analytical and a "measurebator", just that
this forum is full of them and it is IS an opinion of KR's that I
also happen to agree with.

Click to expand...

No offense but I don't think that's what the poster in question meant and even on your own specific point I disagree. I also think KR would get alot less flak if he wouldn't review ANY equipment he has never (even if he admits it) even used. I've never used the 70-200VR so I wonder how much value my own review of it would be to anyone? I wonder how misleading if someone mistook me for an expert when I obviously wasn't?

Tierdaen said:

I've commented a number of times that lenses like the 18-200 will
prove themselves with real photographs when the opportunities to
take them arise. The endless comparisons to other lenses is tiring
and silly to me, but it's a new lens and the buyers are insecure
and need SOMETHING to be certain their lens will serve them well.

Click to expand...

I agree although I think that's natural. It also explains my own aversion to buying anything brand spanking new.

Tierdaen said:

Quite honestly, when I picked up my 180mm F/2.8D and my 45mm
F/2.8P, there were very few good quality images that I felt
reflected the potential of the lenses so I did comparison tests
because I didn't have great opportunities to take nice "real"
photos. Quite honestly, most of the photos that get posted in
these forums and on PBase from those lenses are mediocre and don't
tell me anything about what the lens should be capable of. I tend
to find better samples on Xitek forums (Chinese) or sometimes on
PhotoSIG.

Click to expand...

Agree.

Tierdaen said:

But because of those tests I took and the few real world samples
giving me suspicions, my 180mm is now at Nikon. Some of this
measurebation isn't all bad...but I do agree that forums like this
one tend to take it to useless extremes.

You've seen photos that I've posted so I don't think I need to post
more to try to validate my opinion. I'm not a great photographer
but I at least go out there and try to get stuff from time to time.
And while I do comparisons and look at lots of test photos that
would never be framed or printed, I agree with them that the forums
have taken measurebation to an almost unhealthy extreme.

Click to expand...

I didn't want to see photos to validate anyone's opinion. Just making a point about what was said. If we really went by photos only to validate the value of someone's opinion then KR would have automatically been excluded to start with.
--

Fit for release from a mental institution but banned from the 3-0-0-D forum since 6-2005.