Pre-Flash Issue or Non-Issue -please email KM here.

I was going to keep my lips zipped, so to speak, but as this thread has surfaced yet again, allow me to coment just once more ;-)

I said:

Videoguy said:

One more thing. I don't know who started using the slang term
"lazy eye" here, but it is completely inappropriate. The term is
used for a medical condition which effects eyesight. People who
truly suffer from real lazy eye are no more likely to have their
blinks caught on camera than anyone else.

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Videoguy kindly explained:

Videoguy said:

It could be Andrew that started it when he posted a thread where he
suggested some workarounds for lazy eyes. But I think you are
nitpicking about symantecs now. We all know what is being referred
to when we say lazy eyes. It seem especially fitting when the eyes
are half closed stupid looking rather than closed.

Click to expand...

I should have made my point more clearly. Everybody in this forum is now familiar with "lazy eye". But the phrase is unsatisfactory for two reasons-

1. The phrase is used as a common name for a amblyopia, "a common condition affecting one or both eyes. It usually occurs in children. Approximately 1-4% of children have amblyopia". Sufferers from amblyopia might prefer it if the common name for their condition was not hijacked in this way. They might just find internet posts linking "lazy eye" with "stupid looking" offensive. A bit of precautionary sensitivity doesn't seem much to ask.

2. On this forum we certainly know what the phrase is being used for. Others may not, becasue I don't think it is in widespread use by the international photographic community. There are plenty of posts about the same phenomenon with the Nikon D70, but they talk about "blinking". Somebody who - comes here - sees all the threads - searches more widely for "lazy eye" and flash - will probably find only KM references, and get the wrong impression entirely.

Where it is appropriate to say it, Happy Christmas everybody.

Claes said:

I will pay money to someone that somehow makes Videguys km camera
dissapear

Click to expand...

Claes said:

So, will anyone else chip in, lets start a collection, we can then
hire someone to steal his KM camera

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1) This was never about "MY" camera. I am helping others here also (see the many thanks I've received), so unless you're planning to steal most people's cameras, including their replacements, this won't accomplish much.

2) I refuse to comment on the specific issue at this time, you must have missed my post here informing everyone of that:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1035&message=16356673&changemode=1

Claes said:

This has to stop, email phil or something.

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3) I've already emailed Phil and asked him to let me know if I have violated any forum rules.

The insults and flames from people are more of a violation of the forum rules, so take a good look in the mirror.

For me, I'm abstaining from discussing at certain topic for the time being so people hear can catch their breath, relax, and settle down, and have an appropriate discussion without so much flaming.

celltech161 said:

I already have a website setup for this. We were going to either
buy him a Canon, or buy him the Metz flash. But Videoguy elected
to not go public with it. Too much fun to keep the momentum going
here i guess.

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Helping people fun? I guess I think of it as just being "helpful", which is satisfaction in itself.

See my response in the last post. It wasn't about MY camera. And I refuse to comment on the specifics of this issue at this time.

Ari, I refuse to comment on a certain issue here. But I can tell you have several lenses.

Ari Aikomus said:

so videoguy... what lenses you used when you measured flash delay ?

Have you noticed that different lenses gives different result ?

Ari

Click to expand...

Thank you. And Merry Christmas!

digitalk said:

Most of the time VG is responding...not starting new threads about
the lazy eye issue.

When I was researching the 5D I kept discussing the issue with VG
in threads b/c I wanted to make sure my DSLR did what I expected it
to do---like take candid indoor shots with the built in flash.

When I hear that Canon DSLR users do not have or have less frequent
issues with lazy-eye it annoys me. KM is a top notch company and
should be on par with its competitors.

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John, thank you, and I feel the same way. So I am not rehasing the issue of this and not commenting on this specific issue for a while.

Merry Christmas.

john farrar said:

john farrar said:

john farrar said:

I definitely join you: let's offer him some money to jump from the KM ship! Let's pay him to stop posting... Let's buy him some non-bliking friends in his life, like this he will stop holding up the whole forum with his BS.> >

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

BS would appear to be contagious. You know very well that these
are un-moderated forums. Elsewhere 'lazy eye' threads could have
been moved or grouped together so as not to populate a large
proportion of the notice board. That's what's needed, not
censorship or ban threats, which only serve to further compromise
the value of the forum to its members.

It could well be - as it was with back focus, and with breaking
controller dials on the old D7 family Minoltas - that before long
the sky will darken and our ears will all be filled with the noise
of pigeons coming back home to roost. Then those who have stated
they have no problem publicly here, and that those reporting it are
'morons', are going to be in a particularly difficult position.

A sensible suggestion has already been made here that people cool
it and cut the knee-jerk responses.
VG. could simply say "Nothing more to add. please refer to earlier
posts".
Perfect camera owners could likewise say "disagree".

It is entirely pointless to go over the same old ground time and
time again.
Only when something new has been discovered, or a new angle
appears, is it legitimate to repost on the issue, and then only in
one thread at a time.

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...And there are people who don't speak english very well (I'm the first one) that didn't know this.

Thank you.

--
Gianluca ( http://www.tmlens.it )

'With Minolta you AS well' ;D

jstartin said:

Lens reviews and more on dyxum.com!

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jstartin said:

their condition was not hijacked in this way. They might just find
internet posts linking "lazy eye" with "stupid looking" offensive.
A bit of precautionary sensitivity doesn't seem much to ask.

Click to expand...

jstartin said:

Where it is appropriate to say it, Happy Christmas everybody.

Click to expand...

I dont really want to respond specifically about this issue for a while.

But let me say that I see your point and

Merry Christmas!

Whoever didnt see Dave Farmer's post in the other thread, it's definitely a good sensible read, the most logical and fair post I've seen lately:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=16360099

Also see Matt Cham's post here"

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1035&message=16358901

Ooops, Left out a word....

I can tell you "I" have several lenses.

I really wish this forum would let you edit these typos that you notice later after you have already posted.

Videoguy said:

Ari Aikomus said:

so videoguy... what lenses you used when you measured flash delay ?

Have you noticed that different lenses gives different result ?

Ari

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

gian said:

...And there are people who don't speak english very well (I'm the
first one) that didn't know this.

Click to expand...

Good point. This would explain a lot of the responses I've gotten also... misunderstandings.

Merry Christmas.

I understand your point. But the 5D is marketed as an entry level/beginner DSLR camera. As such, newbie's like me have a much larger learning curve and rely on this forum for assistance.

Video Guy's lazy-eye posts caught my attention. I responded particulary because I am a novice and since there is no formal review of the 5D from Phil, it was an important resource for me. After testing the issue I found it occurs with my kids in every shot---something I did not expect given past cameras from Canon and Panasonic never had this issue.

So while it may not be of interest to pros on this forum, I think it has some merit especially in terms of learning. By reading posts and discussing the issue, I've learned lots of new details about flash photography and the option to shoot without flash in low light with a DSLR.

JulienHG said:

To be honest with you, I don't see the need to have a DSLR to make
candid shoots indoor... a p&s is more than enough

digitalk said:

Most of the time VG is responding...not starting new threads about
the lazy eye issue.

When I was researching the 5D I kept discussing the issue with VG
in threads b/c I wanted to make sure my DSLR did what I expected it
to do---like take candid indoor shots with the built in flash.

When I hear that Canon DSLR users do not have or have less frequent
issues with lazy-eye it annoys me. KM is a top notch company and
should be on par with its competitors.

Click to expand...

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com

Click to expand...

Digitalk, thank you, and I am happy to have helped bring information to light which you consider relevant to your situation. Your expectations are very reasonable that you should be able to use the camera in normal everyday situations. While I won't comment specifically on the issue that many are fired up about, let me say that I think it's ridiculous that someone suggest you buy second camera for your candid shots. You are are correct in your expectations that it should perform like other models you have used; even better for the money.

Merry Christmas!

digitalk said:

I understand your point. But the 5D is marketed as an entry
level/beginner DSLR camera. As such, newbie's like me have a much
larger learning curve and rely on this forum for assistance.

Video Guy's lazy-eye posts caught my attention. I responded
particulary because I am a novice and since there is no formal
review of the 5D from Phil, it was an important resource for me.
After testing the issue I found it occurs with my kids in every
shot---something I did not expect given past cameras from Canon and
Panasonic never had this issue.

So while it may not be of interest to pros on this forum, I think
it has some merit especially in terms of learning. By reading posts
and discussing the issue, I've learned lots of new details about
flash photography and the option to shoot without flash in low
light with a DSLR.

Click to expand...

digitalk said:

digitalk said:

digitalk said:

Most of the time VG is responding...not starting new threads about
the lazy eye issue.

When I was researching the 5D I kept discussing the issue with VG
in threads b/c I wanted to make sure my DSLR did what I expected it
to do---like take candid indoor shots with the built in flash.

When I hear that Canon DSLR users do not have or have less frequent
issues with lazy-eye it annoys me. KM is a top notch company and
should be on par with its competitors.

Click to expand...

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi Digitalk

Lot of people consider the 5D as an entry level DSLR... that's somewhat true... even if I think it's a bit more than an entry level... at least it delivers morefeatures than the lower tier DSLR ranges from Canon and Nikon.

However, when you take pictures, the most important thing is not the camera... it's you and your subject!!! something vg is completly forgetting, relying only on the camera factor. if the camera reacts like this for some people, then it's up to this people to adapt themselves to the tool to get the result they want.

Kids are particularly reactive to strong and quick light like a flash can deliver. Try to take pictures of them in different light conditions, not in too dark places... where obviously the difference in light between the dark enviroment and the strong flash might contribute to a higher propention to blink eyes (and for younger subjects this probability is even higher).

Then maybe the KM5D flash intensity is stronger, and then you have to shoot in lighter conditions... Try different lightning, experiment, take pictures! VG is not working in KM, he's not an expert, he's anonymous poster... he doesn't have any answer to a situation you might have.

Because every blink or whatever other name he gave to it are the results of a lot of factors mix: lightning environement, subject sensitivity, time of the day (if it's evening/night, your eyes are more tired, more likely to close than at lunch time), quality of the air (imagine a smoking restaurant: your eyes are more sensitive).... The camera process and flash intensity are known... you just need to adapt the other factors to make sure you will get the results you want.

Anyway, for me, the best solution for portrait is to ALWAYS AVOID TO USE FLASH if you can! you will always get more natural and warm results. Fill-in exscepted! this can give you superb results as well! I always tend to use natural light, and I always tend to adapt my subject and composition to limit at maximum strong flash.

Hope it helps!
Cheers
Julien

digitalk said:

Video Guy's lazy-eye posts caught my attention. I responded
particulary because I am a novice and since there is no formal
review of the 5D from Phil, it was an important resource for me.
After testing the issue I found it occurs with my kids in every
shot---something I did not expect given past cameras from Canon and
Panasonic never had this issue.

So while it may not be of interest to pros on this forum, I think
it has some merit especially in terms of learning. By reading posts
and discussing the issue, I've learned lots of new details about
flash photography and the option to shoot without flash in low
light with a DSLR.

JulienHG said:

To be honest with you, I don't see the need to have a DSLR to make
candid shoots indoor... a p&s is more than enough

digitalk said:

Most of the time VG is responding...not starting new threads about
the lazy eye issue.

When I was researching the 5D I kept discussing the issue with VG
in threads b/c I wanted to make sure my DSLR did what I expected it
to do---like take candid indoor shots with the built in flash.

When I hear that Canon DSLR users do not have or have less frequent
issues with lazy-eye it annoys me. KM is a top notch company and
should be on par with its competitors.

Click to expand...

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com

Videoguy said:

I think it's ridiculous that someone suggest you buy
second camera for your candid shots. You are are correct in your
expectations that it should perform like other models you have
used; even better for the money.

Click to expand...

You are uncorrect to think a camera from another manufacturer should perform as the one you previously owned, made by another firm. We are not living in the Soviet Union: all camera manufacturers have their specificities, up to you to accept the one you purchased (more due to the faact that you was aware of KM specificities). if you're not happy: sell it and bye bye!

I disagree that the KM DSLRs should have such as serious problem with these candid shots (and many others non-candid) that are not an issue with other models, even digital cameras which are 7+ years old, and tha the user should go buy a second camera for those shots, I dont care if you are from the Soviet Union or another planet. If I told my friend with the Rebel that I had to use a different camera for any candid shots, he would first laugh his head on, and then understand, because he used my camera for a while.

I won't go into any specifics of the issues. Merry Christmas.

JulienHG said:

Videoguy said:

I think it's ridiculous that someone suggest you buy
second camera for your candid shots. You are are correct in your
expectations that it should perform like other models you have
used; even better for the money.

Click to expand...

You are uncorrect to think a camera from another manufacturer
should perform as the one you previously owned, made by another
firm. We are not living in the Soviet Union: all camera
manufacturers have their specificities, up to you to accept the one
you purchased (more due to the faact that you was aware of KM
specificities). if you're not happy: sell it and bye bye!

Click to expand...

Videoguy said:

I really wish this forum would let you edit these typos that you
notice later after you have already posted.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. Sometimes I don't even know is it typo or my poor english...)

Videoguy said:

Videoguy said:

Ari, I refuse to comment on a certain issue here. But I can tell
you have several lenses.

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Click to expand...

Okey, You have several lenses, but have you measured different results depends lense you use?

Earlier I had Sigmas 28-105 mm lens and it was very bad with KM 5D's own little flash, but even with Metz also (HSS mode, with Auto-mode it operate fine)

Ari

Ari Aikomus said:

Earlier I had Sigmas 28-105 mm lens and it was very bad with KM
5D's own little flash, but even with Metz also (HSS mode, with
Auto-mode it operate fine)

Click to expand...

Hello. Bad in what way? Are you referring to exposure, droopy eyes, or ?

Lenses should not really make a difference for droopy eyes since the delay is caused by slow mechanical assemblies for the mirror which are compatible with AS. Even turning off AS makes no difference.