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Pre-Flash Issue or Non-Issue -please email KM here.

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digitalk

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As I'm sure many here will agree, the lazy eye/blinking issue is very confusing. I'd like to suggest that we send emails to KM to get their attention. I sent a troubleshoot email (see link below) to KM and it took about one minute.

Whether or not you feel there is infact an issue to begin with, getting an response from KM would be the final verdict.

http://kmpi.konicaminolta.us/eprise/main/kmpi/content/cam/cam_Faqs/cam_AskYourQuestion
 
Digitalk,

I have determined that I will measure the delay. Stay tuned.
digitalk said:
As I'm sure many here will agree, the lazy eye/blinking issue is
very confusing. I'd like to suggest that we send emails to KM to
get their attention. I sent a troubleshoot email (see link below)
to KM and it took about one minute.

Whether or not you feel there is infact an issue to begin with,
getting an response from KM would be the final verdict.

http://kmpi.konicaminolta.us/eprise/main/kmpi/content/cam/cam_Faqs/cam_AskYourQuestion
Click to expand...
--
Rick
 
Why should it be an issue?

I mean someone called "videoguy" posted in a similar thread that KM5D has a delay of about 130 MS, other cameras usually around 60-70 MS thats a difference of as well 60 to 70 MS.

Which means if other camereas don't have the same problem like 5D (blinking eye), they must make their images within the difference of 60 to 70 MS...and even with flash switched on i doubt you will take a picture

in 60 MS ;-) you usually need 1/60 sec wich is far more than 60 MS (10x more to be correct).
 
The problem is that a lot of people don't seem to get blinking problems or at least an unreasonable number of them. I'm not suggesting that someone has made up this issue although it is arguable as to whether it is grossly exaggerated.

It would be helpful if more could post their offending photos with exifs & explain just how they setup & took the faulty shot. I have only used the built-in flash but cannot provoke blinking no matter how hard I try - I admit that I may just be lucky but I would like a clearer understanding of why this issue seems to vary so much.

Is it subject distance that is the problem, delay in shooting the photo ( a case of the nerves ), shooting in near darkness or in very bright surroundings. At any one time we only seem to get partial descriptions of what is going on.

Keith-C
 
digitalk said:
As I'm sure many here will agree, the lazy eye/blinking issue is
very confusing.
Click to expand...
It's a very big problem, but not really very confusing, except for maybe wh would KM ever design and release a camera with the problem.
 
FranzFerdinand said:
Why should it be an issue?

I mean someone called "videoguy" posted in a similar thread that
KM5D has a delay of about 130 MS
Click to expand...
I've measured it to vary between 129ms to 145ms.
FranzFerdinand said:
other cameras usually around
60-70 MS thats a difference of as well 60 to 70 MS.
Click to expand...
Other cameras measured from 52ms to 135ms. The newer Canon models are the fastest in my testing.
FranzFerdinand said:
Which means if other camereas don't have the same problem like 5D
(blinking eye), they must make their images within the difference
of 60 to 70 MS...and even with flash switched on i doubt you will
take a picture
Click to expand...
That's right. The ones with delay under 100ms don't give the preflash blinking problem, although a person can be caught blinking for other reasons on the rare occassion.
FranzFerdinand said:
in 60 MS ;-) you usually need 1/60 sec wich is far more than 60 MS
(10x more to be correct).
Click to expand...
60ms is NOT 1/60th of a second. And 1/60th of a second is NOT more than 60ms.

60ms = .060 seconds
1/60 second = .01666 seconds
 
KEITH-C said:
It would be helpful if more could post their offending photos with
exifs & explain just how they setup & took the faulty shot.
Click to expand...
EXIF information isn't going to make a different. It's the preflash that causes a person to blink, not the exposure settings, focal length, etc. And the preflash delay is what causes it to be captured. EXIF won't play a part in that. There are countless threads describing the issue. Just try it on more people.
 
Not true, at least 25% of the people have stated having some blink issues. I think the actual number is much higher than that.

The timed preflash delay is clearly longer than most other models of cameras, and it's clearly longer than controlled scientific studies have shown many people to blink in response to light.

Those are facts, and not really open for debate.
JulienHG said:
Videoguy said:
It's a very big problem, but not really very confusing,.
Click to expand...
Look the problem is small: YOU maded it big.

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com
Click to expand...
 
Yes, everyone who has this problem should email KM.

Ironically, someone stated that multiple people at KM have told them that their cameras didnt use preflash! LOL. That doesn't give me much confidence that KM will fix it if they dont even know their cameras use it. I will be surprised if they provide a retrofit mirror assembly to fix the problem in 5D or 7D. But let's at least let KM know this is a big problem.

Thanks to all those who have come forth to admit having this issue with the 5D/7D, while the problem is rarely seen in other models of cameras.

Have a great day.
digitalk said:
As I'm sure many here will agree, the lazy eye/blinking issue is
very confusing. I'd like to suggest that we send emails to KM to
get their attention. I sent a troubleshoot email (see link below)
to KM and it took about one minute.

Whether or not you feel there is infact an issue to begin with,
getting an response from KM would be the final verdict.

http://kmpi.konicaminolta.us/eprise/main/kmpi/content/cam/cam_Faqs/cam_AskYourQuestion
Click to expand...
 
Al Dugan wrote:
25% of what people? Did you conduct a poll of owners outside of this forum?

Give me a break with your numbers.

Al
 
I agree with Al Dugan: VG jsut proved that his test is not valid: the poll said 15%, then he comes with 25% according to his instinct (or maybe wish, dream, mirage, illusion...)... How can we trust his test restults, self-claimed to be scientific?

The issue is SMALL, and it's not by shouting on it and writting tons of uninteresting stuff that it will be bigger.

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com
 
IF, it is a mili-second issue will it be adjustable via firmware in the camera or is it a flash adjustment? (For those who would want it.)

It will be interesting to compare next generation flash and camera to see if any changes in this area by Minolta.

--
Thanks,

Digitalshooter!
 
Al Dugan wrote:

The problem has been blown way out of proportion. Generally if a product has a problem any magnitude and importance, you will read reports of it all over the place. You won't find a review where it is not mentioned. When I read other forums and reviews of the KM line, I rarely see mention of this problem, except here and most of that comes from one person.

Al
 
25%? Easily. Read on......

Check the latest additions to the poll.

Now, read the comments. At least one person stated they had some issues, but voted no, so that vote is really a yet.

Now look over the other threads and you will find some people that stated they either had or didnt have the issue, but they didnt vote. Now add that to the poll. Now include those people in earlier threads that actually sold their equipment because of the problem. Andrew didnt vote, but stated he sometimes had the blink problem and had to use 2 second timer as well. I can link to a thread where he states this if you dont believe it. We are definitely up to at least 25% now. But I still would bet the actual percentage is much higher if people were more willing to admit it in fear of being flames.
Al Dugan said:
Al Dugan wrote:

25% of what people? Did you conduct a poll of owners outside of
this forum?

Give me a break with your numbers.

Al
Click to expand...
 
Al Dugan said:
Al Dugan wrote:

The problem has been blown way out of proportion. Generally if a
product has a problem any magnitude and importance, you will read
reports of it all over the place.
Click to expand...
Actually, this has been stated in MULTIPLE reviews and by many people here. There were people selling their 7D's about a year ago due to this issue.

Now many people see blinks, but they have no idea of how a camera operates at the "preflash" level. So they can only imagine that the people are just happen to be blinking just before the flash fires. They get upset with their subjects for blinking. They have no idea about this preflash delay issue, so of course, they wont be complaining about it. I've tried to get the right information out there about the real cause. You can be sure there are thousands of KM owners experiencing this that have no idea there even exists such as thing as preflash!
 
Videoguy said:
Al Dugan said:
Al Dugan wrote:

The problem has been blown way out of proportion. Generally if a
product has a problem any magnitude and importance, you will read
reports of it all over the place.
Click to expand...
Actually, this has been stated in MULTIPLE reviews and by many
people here. There were people selling their 7D's about a year ago
due to this issue.

Now many people see blinks, but they have no idea of how a camera
operates at the "preflash" level. So they can only imagine that
the people are just happen to be blinking just before the flash
fires. They get upset with their subjects for blinking. They have
no idea about this preflash delay issue, so of course, they wont be
complaining about it. I've tried to get the right information out
there about the real cause. You can be sure there are thousands of
KM owners experiencing this that have no idea there even exists
such as thing as preflash!
Click to expand...
And I forgot to add. KM's own support people were not even aware that their cameras used preflash, so how can you expect the average Joe to understand this is causing their blinks and to come here to complain about it??!! They dont understand those technical details. That's why people like me can help educate the users why they are seeing all these lazy eyes.

Have a good day.
 
digitalshooter said:
IF, it is a mili-second issue will it be adjustable via firmware in
the camera or is it a flash adjustment? (For those who would want
it.)
Click to expand...
Probably more like a 40ms+ issue. If they can increase the speed by 40ms, then that should pretty much resolve the problem. I much prefer they improve it to 90ms or less preflash delay, this should resolve any additional delay caused by wireless control flashes also, which can also cause someone to blink when the preflash is activated from the onboard flash.

Considering KM engineeers statements of using slower mechanical assemblies to assure compatibility with AS, I dont see a firmware fix to shorten the delay by the necessary 40+ ms. A retrofit would be the best to hope for, but I would highly doubt that ever comes to pass.
 
umm most companies i have found when talking to support know very little about the product they support.
Videoguy said:
And I forgot to add. KM's own support people were not even aware
that their cameras used preflash, so how can you expect the average
Joe to understand this is causing their blinks and to come here to
complain about it??!! They dont understand those technical
details. That's why people like me can help educate the users why
they are seeing all these lazy eyes.

Have a good day.
Click to expand...
 
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