Indoor sports photography - Lense choice

Jayo Dublin · Dec 13, 2005

Having reviewed the extensive archive material available on the subject, I am still stuck in the middle of focal length vs aperture thing and which lense I should try to get on Santa's list. I feel that its worth some investment as I'm in a position to do more of this indoor stuff than in the past (may even be able to sell some and start paying for all this gear!!!) but I'm no pro and I recognise there will be a learning curve with the reduced DOF

For the price and the focal range am currently looking at the Canon EF 200mm f2.8 but am I really fooling myself that this will be sufficient to get a sharp image of a gymnast / volleyballer in mid flight in an artificially lit / gymnasium environment? Should I be foresaking the focal length side of things and looking at aperture of less than 2?? (135mm, 100mm). Its likely that I will be able to get better access than just in the bleachers but even from the competitive floor area, there will always be a limit to how close you can get.

Any suggs greatly appreciated

Chrs

J

John_A_G · Dec 13, 2005

Will you be shooting in college or high school venues? If High School, then you are better served going with a 1.8. Which specific lens will, of course, depend on where you are located. The 85mm 1.8 would be a great start. That may be a bit long for volleyball if you're near the net. For gymnasitics, I can't comment on focal lenght. A 70-200 2.8 would be great in a college gymnasium but not for high school.

Jayo Dublin · Dec 13, 2005

John

Thanks for your views - as low as f1.8, eh? That really has spooked me as I was hoping to get the longest focal length possible without having to ship mega bucks.

Venues tend to be mixed - the events are club based and could be held at regional (college standard) or local (high school) standard venues.

Thnks again

J

John_A_G · Dec 13, 2005

Sorry for the fright, but h.s. gyms are notoriously badly lit. If you already had a 2.8 lens I would suggest seeing if it would work in your venue - but since this is club and will involve lots of locations it's pretty much gauranteed you'll run into several locations where a 2.8 lens at ISO 1600 just isn't enough. Even 3200 may or may not be enough. Which, unfortunately means Prime lenses - which means either spending $$$$ for multiple lenses or adjusting your shooting of the events to account for having a single focal length. For instance, if you bought the 85mm 1.8 you probably wouldn't shoot much from the net for volleyball. If you started with a 50mm 1.8 - that might work for volleyball but you'd need to be closer to the individual aperatus for gymnastics and especially on the floor routines you would be limited to action on your side of the floor.

In those cases, the only alternative is to use flash or strobes to 'freeze' the motion - which is a whole other discussion.

One other thing to note - you will want to either shoot in RAW or set a custom WB.

But, this all just my opinion - hopefully some others will jump in and offer some additional advice.

bparkinson · Dec 13, 2005

Jayo Dublin said:
Having reviewed the extensive archive material available on the
subject, I am still stuck in the middle of focal length vs aperture
thing and which lense I should try to get on Santa's list. I feel
that its worth some investment as I'm in a position to do more of
this indoor stuff than in the past (may even be able to sell some
and start paying for all this gear!!!) but I'm no pro and I
recognise there will be a learning curve with the reduced DOF

For the price and the focal range am currently looking at the Canon
EF 200mm f2.8 but am I really fooling myself that this will be
sufficient to get a sharp image of a gymnast / volleyballer in mid
flight in an artificially lit / gymnasium environment? Should I be
foresaking the focal length side of things and looking at aperture
of less than 2?? (135mm, 100mm). Its likely that I will be able to
get better access than just in the bleachers but even from the
competitive floor area, there will always be a limit to how close
you can get.

I think you should look at the following lenses: 85/1.8, 100/2, 135/2, or the 70-200/2.8.

Look in the SLR lens forum and you will see many prefer the 85/1.8 for basketball and volleyball (the 50/1.8 works too, but I think the AF is too slow). The 135/2 may be a little long depending on your location, and the 70-200/2.8 gives great flexibility but the f/2.8 may not be enough for darker venues.

I have the 70-200/2.8, and I am going to give it a go for HS basketball this year. The 85/1.8 is on my list, in part because I am concerned that f/2.8 will not be fast enough, but I am going to try it.

As you mentioned, depth of field is an issue, and places a premium on fast AF, which all of the above seem to do well.

Also, at 200mm focal length, I struggle with camera shake. Maybe it is just me and no one else has this issue, but I would consider either a monopod, or getting IS with your 70-200. I know IS does not stop movement, but it gets rid of your own camera shake, leaving player motion as the only culprit for blurry shots. I use a monopod, which helps a lot, but it is kind of cumbersome.

Brad

Omri Alon · Dec 13, 2005

85mm f/1.8 + monopod + ballhead
--
Omri Alon-
see profile for gear
my album:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b306/omri7/

reimersdk · Dec 13, 2005

From the seats I use a 280/2.8 with 1.4x and 1600 (even 3200)

the light is a killer and might force you into the expensive primes
but they are great fun too.

If you can get closer the 180 or 200 should do fine.
Flash (in my opinion) is out of the question as it's invasive and
actually might disturb the game.

--
350D=R11

nickleback · Dec 13, 2005

Jayo Dublin said:
For the price and the focal range am currently looking at the Canon
EF 200mm f2.8 but am I really fooling myself that this will be
sufficient to get a sharp image of a gymnast / volleyballer in mid
flight in an artificially lit / gymnasium environment?

The EF 200mm f/2.8L is a fine lens, quite sharp, and relatively light, small and inexpensive for its focal length/f-stop/build quality. I have the old version, apparently the only difference between the old and new is the old has an almost-useless built-in hood and the new one has a petal-shaped bayonet-mount hood.

Having said that, when shot from the floor, 200mm on a 300D/350D is way too long for volleyball and gymnastics.

Your cheapest (and best, IMO) option is an 85mm f/1.8 or 100mm f/2. If you want more flexibility and lug around a lot more weight, consider a 70-200mm f/2.8 zoom (Sigma or Canon). Unfortunately that means you'll lose a stop, which could be critical.

If you currently shoot these sports, why not use a cheap long zoom lens (assuming you own or can borrow one) and shoot away. Don't worry about the blur, all you want to know is what focal lengths you typically use as you frame the shots.

nickleback · Dec 13, 2005

John_A_G said:
One other thing to note - you will want to either shoot in RAW or
set a custom WB.

If you have a 300D, you will definitely want to shoot jpeg with custom WB. raw is just too slow and the buffer is too small.

Regardles of raw of jpeg choice, for indoor gyms you'll usually want to shoot in M mode. The lighting is usually bad, but it is also usually consistant. You don't want the camera hunting around for the right exposure and meter the wrong thing (like a white volleyball) for a particular shot. Take a shot to setup WB, then a few more to nail the exposure (check the histogram), then leave it.

Eric217138 · Dec 13, 2005

Do you have a slow zoom that you could use to test the best focal lengths you'll need to have from your position?

I shot some gymnastics with a 50mm f/1.8, just for fun -- I'll check when I get home what kind of exposure settings I needed for the shots I took. 50mm was definately not long enough, but I may be able to help with some typical exposure settings I used.

Eric

Jayo Dublin · Dec 13, 2005

Thanks to all so far for the comments - very helpful indeed

My current setup is 350D, 17-85 is usm & 70-300 is usm (and man do I expect to be missing that IS soon!)

I have used the 70 -300 @ ISO1600 and the maj. of time it was at the t/photo end but I think thats mostly because I realised I couldnt get static images in frames involving movement and so went for closer images of reactions / facial expressions / general interaction of competitors

So, I will take that good piece of advice and start shooting at the focal length I need to properly frame the pic, ignoring the movement blur and they buy accordingly (another gym competition on this W/E)- given the standard of light, I think I will shift my thinking and look at only f2.0 or wider. (but I dont think Santa will deem me well behaved enough to expect the c. $900 135mm 2.0)

Chrs J

nickleback · Dec 13, 2005

Jayo Dublin said:
My current setup is 350D, 17-85 is usm & 70-300 is usm (and man do
I expect to be missing that IS soon!)

IS is of little use for sports (except when panning assuming the IS has panning mode).

While doing the shooting tests, note how many stops faster you want the shutter speed to be. If 2 stops (i.e divide shutter speed by 4) is enough, then f/2.8 will be OK. Usually around 1/200 is minimum for stopping most sports.

Bill80530 · Dec 13, 2005

I shot about 2000 pictures of my daughter's varsity volleyball team. Most of these were in a normal HS gym. I started with a 50mm 1.8 and then bought an 85mm 1.8. The 85mm is better from the end or from the 3rd row back. I was doing too much cropping with the 50mmm. If you want some sample pictures I can put them up on my site for a short time.

Bill

caterpillar · Dec 13, 2005

Jayo Dublin said:
Thanks to all so far for the comments - very helpful indeed

My current setup is 350D, 17-85 is usm & 70-300 is usm (and man do
I expect to be missing that IS soon!)

I have used the 70 -300 @ ISO1600 and the maj. of time it was at
the t/photo end but I think thats mostly because I realised I
couldnt get static images in frames involving movement and so went
for closer images of reactions / facial expressions / general
interaction of competitors

Good lineup. yes, you will miss that IS!

Jayo Dublin said:
So, I will take that good piece of advice and start shooting at the
focal length I need to properly frame the pic, ignoring the
movement blur and they buy accordingly (another gym competition on
this W/E)- given the standard of light, I think I will shift my
thinking and look at only f2.0 or wider. (but I dont think Santa
will deem me well behaved enough to expect the c. $900 135mm 2.0)

Chrs J,

You can try this. Get an 85 f1.8 or a 100 f2 usm (I have the latter). And get a tamron 1.4x TC. By going this route you will get a f2.5 119mm or a 140mm f2.8 lens. Give this combination a whirl. Then later, if you do need a 135 f2L, then you can still use your 85mm or 100mm.

The nice thing about the 135mm f2L is that you can skip the 200 f2.8L, because with a 1.4x TC, it becomes a 189mm f2.8L lens!

Sports shooting, particularly indoor is very demanding both on lenses and camera. Even your 350D's 3fps is going too be slow for some tasks. A 20d at least would be better or a 1d mk2, but the 350d will survive. You just have to have better timing and technique to offset the cmaera limitiation. Also be thankful that your own needs are sub U$1,000 in lenses. It could be worse if you needed a 300 f2.8L or a 200 f1.8L, something like that!

--
---------------------

Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Eric217138 · Dec 13, 2005

The photos aren't anything to brag about, especially from 50mm, but here were some common exposure levels I found:

Hamline University Gymnasium:

1/400s, f/1.8, ISO 800 (slight blurring on fast moving limbs)
1/125, f/2.8, ISO 1600 (significant blurring)
1/320, f/2, ISO 1600

University of Wisconsin - Stout Gymnasium:

1/250, f/2, ISO 800
1/200, f/2.8, ISO 1600

Anyway, the second gym was a little brighter, but I think with an f/2.8 lens you might either be at ISO 1600 the whole time, or else resign to some motion blur. f/1.8 or f/2 would definately helped, if the gyms are as dim as the two that I was in.

chiliman · Dec 13, 2005

No one has mentioned the possibillity of a flash, so I will.

I'm not an expert indoor sports shooter, but if you're up around ISO1600 an external flash unit could have the range to be a cheaper alternative to a fast prime (or to a convenient but too-slow 2.8 zoom). I recently shot college basketball using only the pop-up flash from courtside (about 50 feet from most action), and results were much better exposed than without it. An external will go much farther than 50 feet at ISO1600. Where are you, flash users?

Andrew

bparkinson · Dec 13, 2005

Where are you, flash users?

A flash is really not appropriate in most venues as it is distracting to the players. Using one may give you a quick ticket outside, and at a minimum, can be disrespectful.

It may be that flash is okay for gymnastics, but I would check it out before assuming it is okay.

Brad

jlstanton106711 · Dec 13, 2005

Thiis a great thread. I'm a swimming parent and the challenges are that you are often far from the swimmers and the light can be bad in doors. I bought an Oly E500 two lens kit and it just doesn't seem to be up to the task. At this point my two choices seem to be:

1) Cannon 350D and a better sensor so that ISO 1600 really works.
2) Go for something with image stabilization that will enable me to work inside.

3) Go with an external flash, although that's a bit frowned on in swimming, especially around the starts.

Any swimming photographers out there? I'm wide open for help. This thread has been great too.

nickleback · Dec 13, 2005

jlstanton said:
Thiis a great thread. I'm a swimming parent and the challenges are
that you are often far from the swimmers and the light can be bad
in doors. I bought an Oly E500 two lens kit and it just doesn't
seem to be up to the task. At this point my two choices seem to be:

1) Cannon 350D and a better sensor so that ISO 1600 really works.
2) Go for something with image stabilization that will enable me to
work inside.
3) Go with an external flash, although that's a bit frowned on in
swimming, especially around the starts.

Image stabilization is almost useless for indoor sports (except panning). IS doesn't stop subject motion. You need high shutter speed, which generally be high enough that IS doesn't matter.

The problem is that you are shooting with a slow zoom lens, f/3.5 to f/4.5. You really want ISO 800 f/2 or 1600 f/2.8. If the focal length works for you, you might consider the Oly 50mm f/2 macro. Otherwise, you're looking at $2000+ lenses (35-100mm f/2, 150mm f/2, etc).

If you switch to Canon, you get cleaner high ISO (350D ISO 1600 looks better than E500 ISO 800), 70-200mm f/2.8 zooms start at about $850 (Sigma), and a bunch of reasonably priced fast primes (50mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2, 135mm f/2.8, 200mm f/2.8L).

Jayo Dublin · Dec 14, 2005

Yep - I'd have to agree...

I've spoken to organisers about this and, particularly in gymnastics, flash is a big no-no - dont want someone getting distracted when they are upside-down trying to spot a landing and ending up on their head!

Its looking like the 100m f2.0 based on all the advice - but I hope to be able to confirm that the focal length is suitable this W/E

Thanks again

J

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