R1 - DSLR best purpose camera

Those lenses are absolutely poor and cannot compare to the R1 lens.
Any "affordable" wide-angle lens is cheap. The numbers "look" good
but all you've got to do is some benchmarking.
Compare how? The R1 is only 24 MM wide...not what I would call wide at all.

These two shots were taken with the cheap Sigma 10-20. Wider than the R1 could do, and is now printed at 10x20 and 8x10 on my wall. Looks good enough to be printed. I wouldn't call it poor by any means.



 
The advantage lies other way around. Just try 300D/350D with 10-22
EF-S USM and you will know what I mean.
There aren't many quality 24mm effective lenses for DSLR that are also standard zooms reaching 120mm, particularly if you are on a budget, got to hand that to the R1.

--
Misha
 
Its not 320 in terms of "reach." Only in terms of field of view.
And what REAL difference does that make? You have a full resolution 8 megapixel image covering a frame that would require a 320mm lens on a full frame camera, it's not like the lens crops the sensor to obtain that narrower FOV.
--
Misha
 
Yes but that 10-20 has to be multiplied by 1.6 which is 16-32mm.
Resolution tests, corner sharpness, bokeh, barrel distortion, etc.

They are consumer grade lenses. They are not L (Canon) or G (Minolta) series. I believe the R1 lens is of the quality of those lenses.
Those lenses are absolutely poor and cannot compare to the R1 lens.
Any "affordable" wide-angle lens is cheap. The numbers "look" good
but all you've got to do is some benchmarking.
Compare how? The R1 is only 24 MM wide...not what I would call
wide at all.

These two shots were taken with the cheap Sigma 10-20. Wider than
the R1 could do, and is now printed at 10x20 and 8x10 on my wall.
Looks good enough to be printed. I wouldn't call it poor by any
means.



 
Yes but that 10-20 has to be multiplied by 1.6 which is 16-32mm.
Resolution tests, corner sharpness, bokeh, barrel distortion, etc.

They are consumer grade lenses. They are not L (Canon) or G
(Minolta) series. I believe the R1 lens is of the quality of those
lenses.
And how will you tell? Except perhaps at huge sizes, these lenses produce results that are hardly distinguishable from Ls (and there are no L lenses that cover the same range on APS DSLRs).
--
Misha
 
Yes but that 10-20 has to be multiplied by 1.6 which is 16-32mm.
Resolution tests, corner sharpness, bokeh, barrel distortion, etc.

They are consumer grade lenses. They are not L (Canon) or G
(Minolta) series. I believe the R1 lens is of the quality of those
lenses.
The sigma is an EX lens, which is their prosumer line.

The 10-20 is 16-32 which is wider than the 24 mm eqiiv on the R1

And it doesn't have to be L to be sharp.

Canon has many non L lenses that are sharper than L lenses.

Nearly any Canon or non Canon Prime lens will be sharper then most any L zoom lens for that matter. The Canon 100 mm Macro is an example of one of the sharpest canon lenses, but it is not an L lens.
 
I've never seen a digital zoom that wasn't less than desireable.
But I haven't seen the R1 DZ either.
From these posts I understand that it does not digitally enlarge (interpolate) images, just crops the image in the camera to produce a tighter composition at a lower resolution - which is what you can do yourself in postprocessing anyway?
--
Misha
 
In previous experience with digital zooms, it does more than just cropping.
I don't understand how it could be a zoom otherwise. If it simply cropped
it would only reduce the field-of-view.
 
Is that true? I thought it was a true 120mm in the sense that its the equivalent (in 35mm) to 120. Meaning the FOV and magnification is the same as a 120mm lens on a 35mm camera/SLR.
Remember, with the mirror gone, the distance is now shorter.
 
Is that true? I thought it was a true 120mm in the sense that its
the equivalent (in 35mm) to 120. Meaning the FOV and magnification
is the same as a 120mm lens on a 35mm camera/SLR.
Remember, with the mirror gone, the distance is now shorter.
It doesn't really matter because the lens cannot be detached and used on any other camera, full frame or APS (particularly since its design makes it incompatible with SLRs anyway).
--
Misha
 
It does matter for me as I think in terms of magnification and field of view. (I have too many SLR lenses to do anything but.) I didn't think the R1 lens was anything but a 24-120mm.

But the original poster is correct:

"Equipped with a 14.3-71.5mm, Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar lens, the R1's zoom range is equivalent to a 24-120mm lens on a 35mm camera."

Cheers!
Is that true? I thought it was a true 120mm in the sense that its
the equivalent (in 35mm) to 120. Meaning the FOV and magnification
is the same as a 120mm lens on a 35mm camera/SLR.
Remember, with the mirror gone, the distance is now shorter.
It doesn't really matter because the lens cannot be detached and
used on any other camera, full frame or APS (particularly since its
design makes it incompatible with SLRs anyway).
--
Misha
 
I believe the image is simply cropped in 2x digital zoom (I"m talking "Precision Zoom" here, as Sony calls it), giving you a 5 megapixel image. Yes, you can do this in pp, but if you do it while you're shooting, you have a better sense of what you're getting. I've used the R1 at 240mm (2x digital zoom) and to me, the results look quite good. It would be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison with a clean 5 megapixel camera like the 717 - unfortunately, I can't, since I don't own a 717.
  • Don
 
In previous experience with digital zooms, it does more than just
cropping.
I don't understand how it could be a zoom otherwise. If it simply
cropped
it would only reduce the field-of-view.
There are two options:
• Smart - Small image sizes, no magnification
• Precision - Normal magnifying digital zoom
--
Misha
 
I believe the image is simply cropped in 2x digital zoom (I"m
talking "Precision Zoom" here, as Sony calls it), giving you a 5
megapixel image. Yes, you can do this in pp, but if you do it while
you're shooting, you have a better sense of what you're getting.
I've used the R1 at 240mm (2x digital zoom) and to me, the results
look quite good. It would be interesting to do a side-by-side
comparison with a clean 5 megapixel camera like the 717 -
unfortunately, I can't, since I don't own a 717.
As far as I know, if you crop a 10 megapixel image to imitate a 2x zoom, the resulting image will not be 5 megapixels, but 2.5 megapixels, since you have to divide linear dimensions (vertical and horizontal) by 2, not the total pixel count.

--
Misha
 
will set you back from $1000-$1500 or so depending on the body you choose.
I currently have the F717 and the teleconverter 1.7 for indoor
shots in a gym for basketball games. Due to the game requirements I
never use a flash. I use ISO800, white balance settings(manual) and
shoot with at least 160 shutter speed (f2-F2.8). I then use neat
image to take the noise out. I have taken a lot of good shots but I
am sure the new cameras have made great advances where I can get
even better ones. I take a lot of sports action shots.
Cameras haven't advanced that much. This type of shooting has always been Dslr/Slr type of shooting. Not that you can't get some nice shots without a Dslr, as you mention. But low noise higher ISOs, fast burst rates and fast lenses make them much better tools for this type of shooting than regular digitals.
Moving forward.. I am looking for a new camera and have been
reading many different posts on the R1 vs DSLRs. There are many
different values and at a cost for each. Some of the areas I am
looking at is in the area of noise levels at I assume that the
noise level is much improved with the new R1 for the higher ISO
levels. How is the R1 for noise at 1600? Auto Focus and zoom are
other areas. For the most part I take the teleconverter on and off
to get different shots during the game. The other issue is without
spending a lot of money on a lense.. it will be difficult to match
the speed of the F717 and R1.
Speed is one of the R-1's issues IMO. Wide open it's not bad, but with any amount of zoom and you're at F4.5 and still only at 120mm's. F4.5 is about 2 stops slower than what you would normally look for in a low light action lens. So you will still be stuck at 1/125-1/160 speeds even at ISO1600 :-( You are correct in thinking the noise should be at least a stop or two better than the 717. But the loss of speed tells me this camera is not the right tool for this type of shooting.
The zoom is also a negative for the R1 for me. 190 (F717), 120(R1)

Based on how I use my camera ... any comments on what else I need
to look at? Thanks
Nope, sounds like you know what you're doing and making the best of the tool you use. My suggestion would be to look into a more appropriate tool.

Like you I wrang every bit of performance out of my 717 I could shooting low light action and finally decided to do it "right". So I now use a 20D and an 85mm F1.8 prime (135mm FOV) and haven't looked back :-)

This setup will cost you close to $1500. Substituting the 350D can save you $400 or so. You will get cleaner ISO1600 images and speeds in the 1/400-1/500 range depending on lighting. Much faster burst capabilities and faster AF also come with either of these cameras.

FWIW, I seldom use noise reduction software. I shoot in RAW and process to minimize noise. I get really good looking large size prints with no visible noise :-)









Steve

--
http://www.pbase.com/slo2k
http://freezeframephotography.smugmug.com
http://www.photobird.com/steve
 
As far as I know, if you crop a 10 megapixel image to imitate a 2x zoom, the resulting image will not be 5 megapixels, but 2.5 megapixels, since you have to divide linear dimensions (vertical and horizontal) by 2, not the total pixel count.

Misha -

I don't think that's correct. I believe it's the area of the image that's divided by 2. For example, let's say your dimensions are 6 units wide by 9 units long. That's an area of 54 square units. If you magnify it 2x, your area becomes 27 square units (half of 54), which would be 4.24 wide by 6.36 long, keeping the 6 x 9 aspect ratio.

So if your area is covered by 10 megapixels, and you 'zoom in' 2x digitally (or crop it to half the original area), you end up with an area covered by 5 megapixels.
 
As far as I know, if you crop a 10 megapixel image to imitate a 2x
zoom, the resulting image will not be 5 megapixels, but 2.5
megapixels, since you have to divide linear dimensions (vertical
and horizontal) by 2, not the total pixel count.

Misha -

I don't think that's correct. I believe it's the area of the image
that's divided by 2. For example, let's say your dimensions are 6
units wide by 9 units long. That's an area of 54 square units. If
you magnify it 2x, your area becomes 27 square units (half of 54),
which would be 4.24 wide by 6.36 long, keeping the 6 x 9 aspect
ratio.
No, the area will be 6/2 x 9/2 = 3 x 4.5 = 13.5.

--
Misha
 
Okay, you're right. I pointed the camera at a ruler and pressed the 2x button. The field narrowed from 9 inches to 4.5.

Hmmmm.
 
Okay, you're right. I pointed the camera at a ruler and pressed the
2x button. The field narrowed from 9 inches to 4.5.
You see why digital zoom is so poor - to get 2x, a 2.5 megapixel image is blown up to 10 megapixels.

--
Misha
 
Thank to all for your comments... Steve, great shots... that is what I am looking for. I am looking into the 20D and I thought I wanted a zoom lens to adjust for the different areas in the gym but the shots you took with the 85m are great. I know to get a zoom lens with that speed it will take some $$... Can you email me some info on where you picked up the lens? There are sooooo many lenses available that it is very confusing to try to pick one out.

My email is [email protected]

Thanks again to all that responded....
 

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