AlienBee's pro's and cons for transition from hot lights?

I'm making the transition from hot lights to strobes, and was thinking of the AlienBee's Busy Bee complete set. I have a good feel for available light photography, but not that much experience with strobes.

http://www.alienbees.com/busy.html

Any obvious pro's and con's to this setup? Any other's that I should consider instead? I'm doing a lot of product photography and would like to mess around a bit more with portraits. Right now I'm getting by with a homemade light tent, and some Tota hot lights.

Also, is it possible to balance strobes to daylight?

I guess I've got more questions than I originally thought, are there any 'must have' texts to add to my library to help my transition? I'd like to jump in without getting to frustrated at my own ignorance!

mgb123 said:

I'm making the transition from hot lights to strobes, and was
thinking of the AlienBee's Busy Bee complete set. I have a good
feel for available light photography, but not that much experience
with strobes.

http://www.alienbees.com/busy.html

Any obvious pro's and con's to this setup? Any other's that I
should consider instead? I'm doing a lot of product photography
and would like to mess around a bit more with portraits. Right now
I'm getting by with a homemade light tent, and some Tota hot lights.

Click to expand...

It's a good starter setup. You may eventually use a different combination of modifiers but it gives you a basis for comparison. Add a good incident light meter and you should be able to do professional work with this setup. About the only thing I would change is to use B400s instead of B800s. I've posted several times on that and there are a few folks who agree with me.

mgb123 said:

Also, is it possible to balance strobes to daylight?

Click to expand...

Studio flash is already pretty close to daylight balance but why would it matter? I'm not asking that as a rhetorical question.

mgb123 said:

I guess I've got more questions than I originally thought, are
there any 'must have' texts to add to my library to help my
transition? I'd like to jump in without getting to frustrated at
my own ignorance!

Click to expand...

There is a learning curve ahead but it's not so bad. Try to exclude external light from your studio and replace the modeling lamp bulbs with 150w Philips Halogena bulbs and youll find them easier to work with.

I think an incident flash meter is essential. Yes, some people work with the historgram and it is useful but it doesn't tell you the same thing. I can also be wildly inconsitent depending on the scene and can't give you the shot to shot consistency of an incident meter.

Remote control of flash is a bit of a luxury but I consider it a very useful one. I think the wired remote is a good addition if your budget can handle it.

--
'When it's time to shoot, shoot, don't talk'
Tuco - Il Buono, il paparazzo, il cattivo

Their umbrellas and softboxes are said to be cheap, I have the "brolly box" and it's junk. I didn't use their softboxes, but did get a large Photoflex Litedome and it's of very nice quality with a nice feature (velcro'd ends). The heavy duty stand seems fine...but I haven't used other brands...others say bogen is better. You might do some research on this aspect of the package.

-- Greg

but their softboxes are an abomination. I have only part use of my right jhand and assembly isnearly impossible. I likme Wescott and Photoflex. If you get Photoflex, get a speed ring from AB.

I like the Bogn 3333 stands a lot better than the cheaper of the AB stands, and they are about the same price.

On the other hand, there is a discount on stands etc. when you buy AB lights. I would add it up both ways, changing the lights to AB400 and getting other brand stands and modifiers and compare the bottom line.

As was mentioned before, AB400s give you plenty of light unless you are going to do LARGE groups or try to light an arena.
--
The right to free speech in no way implies any right to be taken seriously!
Joe

padeye99656 said:

It's a good starter setup. You may eventually use a different
combination of modifiers but it gives you a basis for comparison.
Add a good incident light meter and you should be able to do
professional work with this setup. About the only thing I would
change is to use B400s instead of B800s. I've posted several times
on that and there are a few folks who agree with me.

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on the 400's vs. the 800's? Based on your comment and the next one, perhaps I ought to put together my own 'package'. In the meantime I'll run a search.

padeye99656 said:

Studio flash is already pretty close to daylight balance but why
would it matter? I'm not asking that as a rhetorical question.

Click to expand...

My lack of experience led me to believe that the light would be balanced differently, so if I wanted to use any of the lights outside I'd need to balance them with filters etc...

padeye99656 said:

There is a learning curve ahead but it's not so bad. Try to
exclude external light from your studio and replace the modeling
lamp bulbs with 150w Philips Halogena bulbs and youll find them
easier to work with.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing that the 150w halogena bulbs are a bit brighter and make the modeling lights a bit more obvious?

padeye99656 said:

I think an incident flash meter is essential. Yes, some people
work with the historgram and it is useful but it doesn't tell you
the same thing. I can also be wildly inconsitent depending on the
scene and can't give you the shot to shot consistency of an
incident meter.

Click to expand...

I've got a Sekonic L508, but I've never used it with strobes before. I'm really starting 'fresh' here!

padeye99656 said:

Remote control of flash is a bit of a luxury but I consider it a
very useful one. I think the wired remote is a good addition if
your budget can handle it.

Click to expand...

I'll look into that as well! thanks very much!

jlongo said:

but their softboxes are an abomination. I have only part use of my
right jhand and assembly isnearly impossible. I likme Wescott and
Photoflex. If you get Photoflex, get a speed ring from AB.

Click to expand...

I'll take a look at the softboxes you mention. Since I'm new to this, I'd like to spend time on the photograph not fighting the gear.

jlongo said:

I like the Bogn 3333 stands a lot better than the cheaper of the AB
stands, and they are about the same price.
On the other hand, there is a discount on stands etc. when you buy
AB lights. I would add it up both ways, changing the lights to
AB400 and getting other brand stands and modifiers and compare the
bottom line.

Click to expand...

I'll 'run the numbers' as you recommend.

jlongo said:

As was mentioned before, AB400s give you plenty of light unless you
are going to do LARGE groups or try to light an arena.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't see arena shots in my near future, so I'll take a look at the 400's!

Thanks!

GPB said:

Their umbrellas and softboxes are said to be cheap, I have the
"brolly box" and it's junk. I didn't use their softboxes, but did
get a large Photoflex Litedome and it's of very nice quality with a
nice feature (velcro'd ends). The heavy duty stand seems
fine...but I haven't used other brands...others say bogen is
better. You might do some research on this aspect of the package.

-- Greg

Click to expand...

I'll steer clear of the brolly box, and check out the photoflex. I'll check out the stands as well since that seems to be a common thought.

mgb123 said:

Can you elaborate on the 400's vs. the 800's? Based on your
comment and the next one, perhaps I ought to put together my own
'package'. In the meantime I'll run a search.

Click to expand...

I thik the B400s are more than powerful enough for portraiture. Things have changed with digital. We aren't working at ulra low ISO values and not with medium and large format cameras that need small apertures just to get sufficient DOF. If anything we have more of a problem limiting DOF when required even with DSLRs. An Alien Bee B400 will give an f11 aperture with a large photoflex softbox at ten feet ISO 100. In most cases you'll want to use it even closer.

mgb123 said:

My lack of experience led me to believe that the light would be
balanced differently, so if I wanted to use any of the lights
outside I'd need to balance them with filters etc...

Click to expand...

Not too far from daylight that it is a big problem.

mgb123 said:

I'm guessing that the 150w halogena bulbs are a bit brighter and
make the modeling lights a bit more obvious?

Click to expand...

mgb123 said:

I've got a Sekonic L508, but I've never used it with strobes
before. I'm really starting 'fresh' here!

Click to expand...

An excellent and capable meter. Learn as much as you can about incident mode.

I should also mention I own almost no Alien Bees accessories except the 22" beauty dish. All my stands are Bogen/Manfrotto and all my other modifiers are Photoflex.

--
'When it's time to shoot, shoot, don't talk'
Tuco - Il Buono, il paparazzo, il cattivo

mgb123 said:

Can you elaborate on the 400's vs. the 800's? Based on your
comment and the next one, perhaps I ought to put together my own
'package'. In the meantime I'll run a search.

Click to expand...

With the B800's in a small studio you will have too much light and will be dialing the lights back as far as possible and may still require some ND filters if you want to use a larger aperture. The B400s put out a signigificant amount of light and I think you will be quite pleased.

mgb123 said:

My lack of experience led me to believe that the light would be
balanced differently, so if I wanted to use any of the lights
outside I'd need to balance them with filters etc...

Click to expand...

Strobe lights are balanced to daylight. You use daylight film with no filters, indoor film with a blue filter. Fillin for outdoors requires nothing.

mgb123 said:

I'm guessing that the 150w halogena bulbs are a bit brighter and
make the modeling lights a bit more obvious?

Click to expand...

It makes the lights brighter and more useful. It becomes more important when the modeling lights track the flash settings and you use the lower levels.

mgb123 said:

I've got a Sekonic L508, but I've never used it with strobes
before. I'm really starting 'fresh' here!

Click to expand...

If the meter can trigger the strobes, or has memory so that you can manually trigger the strobes, and the meter can indeed read the rather quick flash duration, then it should be OK. The Sekonic L358 is a good meter for use with strobes.

mgb123 said:

mgb123 said:

Remote control of flash is a bit of a luxury but I consider it a
very useful one. I think the wired remote is a good addition if
your budget can handle it.

Click to expand...

I'll look into that as well! thanks very much!

Click to expand...

The wired remote is only $100.00 and you will get a significant discount on that if you order with your package. I think it may be as high as 20% off making the control $80.00.

The wired remote allows you to adjust the light levels from one location and also to trip all four flashes with one sync cord from the camera. Although the lights will trip with their built-in triggers, the wired remote allows you to disable the builtin triggers and just use the remote. In a small studio this is not a problem. But if you ever do a wedding competing with Ma and Pa with their P&S cameras will cause your strobes to trip on their flashes. (Which may not be too bad as it will severely over expose their images.)

--
RayT

mgb123 said:

I'll take a look at the softboxes you mention. Since I'm new to
this, I'd like to spend time on the photograph not fighting the
gear.

Click to expand...

Once the softboxes are setup you just leave them installed and they work fine. The biggest hassle for most people seems to be assembly. But I can assemble the softbox in under two minutes with no hassles.

Try the AB softboxes first. You will not be out a lot of money as you get a discount with the lights. And within 30 days you really do not like them, I would wager that AB would take the lights back.

--
RayT

mgb123 said:

I'll steer clear of the brolly box, and check out the photoflex.
I'll check out the stands as well since that seems to be a common
thought.

Click to expand...

My other post should have said "take the boxes back", not the lights.

Anyway, the heavy duty stands are well constructed and will probably take whatever you are going to hang on them. A stand is a stand as long as it supports the weight. The AB lights, with box, do not weigh a lot.

--
RayT

I can't figure out why less power is an advantage, except from a cost perspective.

The price difference between a 400 and an 800 is very small.

But the gain of one f stop in light is worthwhile a lot fo the time.

The farther the light is from the subject, the less the falloff is from front to back of your subject.

So, for instance, if you were shooting a familiy in their living room, and the dog was in front and the kids in the middle and mom and dad in a third row, andyou wanted the fireplace in the background to be reasonbly bright, too, you need little falloff, and a small f stop so that you get decent depth of field.

If the lights are 5.6 feet from the middle row, you'll be a half stop bright 4.5 feet from the light, and a half stop dark 6.3 feet from the light. That gives you about two feet to squish dog, kids, and parents, so that they are all within a stop of each other.

If the lights are 11 feet from the middle row, you'd be half a stop brighter 9 feet from the lights, and a half a stop darker 13 feet from the lights.

That gives you four feet into which to fit the family so that the dog in the front and the parents in the back are within a half stop of the kids in the middle.

But you need two more f stops worth of light to cope with the increased distance, so this is where the more powerful 800 flash units start to be worth the extra money.

On the other hand, if you want to artistically illuminate a head and shoulders portrait up close with dramatic light fall off and you have a 800 model flash head, just drape a piece of white cloth over the front of the softbox, and theat will reduce your light even further if the variable power switch won't go low enough for you.

It's easier to cut light from a powerful flash than it is to add light to an underpowered model.

BAK

BAK said:

I can't figure out why less power is an advantage, except from a
cost perspective.

Click to expand...

Or except when more power is a disadvantage. Read the posts from those of us who prefer B400s.

BAK said:

The price difference between a 400 and an 800 is very small.

Click to expand...

4 x $55 =$220

BAK said:

But the gain of one f stop in light is worthwhile a lot fo the time.

Click to expand...

Except when it's a disadvantage. One of the common complaints with digital, including most DSLRs is inability to limit DOF. This means opening up to larger apertures which means studio lights have to be operate at much reduced power. If the main is reduced one, two or even three stops there is less flexibility for setting ratios for the fill and background lights.

BAK said:

The farther the light is from the subject, the less the falloff is
from front to back of your subject.

Click to expand...

Yes, but often falloff is a desireable trait. Aside from that the farther a light source is the harder the shadows will be. This is just the opposite of what nearly everyone strives for in portraits where the mantra is big light source as close as possible.

BAK said:

So, for instance, if you were shooting a familiy in their living
room, and the dog was in front and the kids in the middle and mom
and dad in a third row, andyou wanted the fireplace in the
background to be reasonbly bright, too, you need little falloff,
and a small f stop so that you get decent depth of field.

Click to expand...

This would be more meaningful if you were talking about 6x7cm or large format. With typical APS-C/DX size sensors this is rarely an issue.

BAK said:

If the lights are 5.6 feet from the middle row, you'll be a half
stop bright 4.5 feet from the light, and a half stop dark 6.3 feet
from the light. That gives you about two feet to squish dog, kids,
and parents, so that they are all within a stop of each other.

If the lights are 11 feet from the middle row, you'd be half a stop
brighter 9 feet from the lights, and a half a stop darker 13 feet
from the lights.

That gives you four feet into which to fit the family so that the
dog in the front and the parents in the back are within a half stop
of the kids in the middle.

But you need two more f stops worth of light to cope with the
increased distance, so this is where the more powerful 800 flash
units start to be worth the extra money.

Click to expand...

This is why large groups are typically lighted from both sides. This cancells out falloff.

You also didn't read my post where I said a large photoflex softbox with both baffles and a B400 gives an aperture of f11 at ten feet, ISO 100. Sufficient distance on the light and sufficient DOF is not a problem, often just the opposite.

BAK said:

On the other hand, if you want to artistically illuminate a head
and shoulders portrait up close with dramatic light fall off and
you have a 800 model flash head, just drape a piece of white cloth
over the front of the softbox, and theat will reduce your light
even further if the variable power switch won't go low enough for
you.

Click to expand...

It also reduces the brightness of the modeling lamp. When using proportional modeling lamps a B400 at full power will be one stop brighter than a B800 at half power. Also if you have a cloth that reduces a whole stop I bet it also introduces a color cast. Far better to get a ND gel and tape it to the inner baffle but better still to not buy a too powerful light to begin with.

BAK said:

It's easier to cut light from a powerful flash than it is to add
light to an underpowered model.

Click to expand...

I'd even argue that point. Paul Buff has an excellent upgrade and return policy. If you decide you need more power you have 60 days to exhange them. If you don't decide that util later there is an upgrade program during the two year warranty period for an upgrade in power at the cost difference plus $25.

I own B400s. I alwo own a 300ws Novatron and a 640ws B1600. I base my preference of B400s for portraiture on my experience. I've never used the B1600 at full power even when shooting full length portraits with 6x7cm film.

--
'When it's time to shoot, shoot, don't talk'
Tuco - Il Buono, il paparazzo, il cattivo

GPB said:

.. The heavy duty stand seems fine...but I haven't used other brands...others say bogen is better. ..

Click to expand...

You are referring at the Stand coming with AB, I guess. If only You would be si kind to weigh one out (days later ..) and let's know how may Lbs. or Kg.

Though it is a primitive criteria, beeing aware on how much metal, the Factory used, gets however an idea.

Also, how much large the legs go around, is a rather important feature on valuing a (steady) Stand. I find interesting Stands by Giottos; I already own Manfrotto, though.

One AB400 is close in Power, at one Nikon SB800 (GN 38 at 35mm) or Canon 550/580-EX, as well; hot-shoe Flash units.

GPB said:

-- Anton

Click to expand...

I have 2 ab800's and 1 ab400, a couple of umbrellas, reflectors, flags and a giant softbox

When I'm trying to get limited dof in the studio I use ASA100 or 50 (I have a Canon 5D) and I lower the 800's down. It hasn't been a problem. Sometimes I even use the 400 and bounce the fill with the 800 as a hot hair or BG light.

IMPORTANT: If you are going to shoot outside in bright sunlight the 400 (even with digital) is not really enough light to punch through when you need it. I've alwasy come from the Too Much light is better than Not Enough light camp. (You can always dumb down light, but can't make it brighter).

In the very least buy a couple of 400's and 1 800 or two 800's and 1 400. The price difference is hardly anything.

Augusta said:

One AB400 is close in Power, at one Nikon SB800 (GN 38 at 35mm) or
Canon 550/580-EX, as well; hot-shoe Flash units.

Click to expand...

It is at best extremely misleading to compare studio lights to an on-camera light with a built in parabolic reflector and tightly focused fresnel lens. Studio flash is made to operate as essentially a bare bulb inside a softbox or umbrella. If you removed the reflector from the SB800 you'd see how little power it really has.

--
'When it's time to shoot, shoot, don't talk'
Tuco - Il Buono, il paparazzo, il cattivo

Augusta said:

GPB said:

.. The heavy duty stand seems fine...but I haven't used other brands...others say bogen is better. ..

Click to expand...

You are referring at the Stand coming with AB, I guess. If only You
would be si kind to weigh one out (days later ..) and let's know
how may Lbs. or Kg.
Though it is a primitive criteria, beeing aware on how much metal,
the Factory used, gets however an idea.
Also, how much large the legs go around, is a rather important
feature on valuing a (steady) Stand. I find interesting Stands by
Giottos; I already own Manfrotto, though.
One AB400 is close in Power, at one Nikon SB800 (GN 38 at 35mm) or
Canon 550/580-EX, as well; hot-shoe Flash units.

Augusta said:

-- Anton

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I never really thought to mention this, but I'm shooting with a Nikon D70s... if that makes any difference. I may buy up to the D200...maybe not. I'm thinking that the strobes would help me more than a new camera.

Does my camera choice really factor in at all when it comes to strobes? I'm guessing that the answer is no...but I wanted to ask just to be sure. I mean, why not purchase from Nikon? I'd never really thought about it, but why not purchase some Speedlights? Are there specific reasons to purchase one over the other?

mgb123 said:

I never really thought to mention this, but I'm shooting with a
Nikon D70s... if that makes any difference. I may buy up to the
D200...maybe not. I'm thinking that the strobes would help me more
than a new camera.

Click to expand...

You can do more by controlling light and a plain camera than with a fancy camera and not controlling light.

mgb123 said:

Does my camera choice really factor in at all when it comes to
strobes? I'm guessing that the answer is no...but I wanted to ask
just to be sure. I mean, why not purchase from Nikon? I'd never
really thought about it, but why not purchase some Speedlights?
Are there specific reasons to purchase one over the other?

Click to expand...

It can to an extent. If you had a camera capable of ISO 50 I wouldn't be so adamant to get the B400s. As for the speedlights there is no comparison. Apples to oranges. Different tools for diffierent purposes. Don't be deluded into thinking an SB800 is powerful compared to even a lowly B400 based on guide number.

--
'When it's time to shoot, shoot, don't talk'
Tuco - Il Buono, il paparazzo, il cattivo

padeye said:

Augusta said:

One AB400 is close in Power, at one Nikon SB800 ...

Click to expand...

.. .. If you removed the reflector from the SB800 you'd see how little power it really has.

Click to expand...

In mere terms of Power, SB800 does really get the same Light-output as AB400, as well as also any other Monolight running in the range of 130-160 "True" Watt/second (Joule); e.g.: Bowens Esprit 125; SP-Systems Excalibur 1600; Visatec Solo 400B - 150J.

That simply means, if You are shooting in the night at a whole building, both an SB800 and an AB400 at full power will require the-same/very-similar ƒ Aperture and t-Speed setting Exposure.
Also, in respect of their max Light-Power on the field, still I can compare:
one AB800 ~ 2x-(barely)3x SB800; one AB1600 ~ 4-5x SB800.

Misconception instead is, comparing Flash-tubes' capability in milli-metres merely.

I agree, Strobes and hot-shoe Flashes are different as tools. Nevertheless I can agree with "padeye" saying in other threads, Their find AB400 as powerfull enough so long to do not need it set for full-power; because also an SB800 there, would have acted in place of the AB400 without getting full-power.

An hot-shoe Flash's tube can assure up (at least) 200,000 lightnings, one from Strobe has surely a longer life and acts inside a larger reflector giving at once starting a diffused source; Strobe recycles faster and that can be useful on a spot-shooting set-up, too.

Yet, I can not turn away from the idea that, also 1-2x SB800 with 2x SB600 and equiped with Stands, Swivel-heads on the Stands, Umbrellas, Bouncers as well, figure a great and handy Lighting Equipment everywhere. Their "look" too, is very Pro- ....

Strobes can not follow the Nikon quik system, setting exposure automatically on the field; Strobes need meausuring and calculations, even if at a glance, though and require sort of Manual setting on the Camera. In multiple set-up, SBs do already have Channels feature; Strobes would need accessories, to do that.
All depends on everyone's planes and tastes ....

padeye99656 said:

-- Anton

Click to expand...

mgb123 said:

I'm making the transition from hot lights to strobes, ...

.. .. I'm doing a lot of product photography ... a bit more with portraits. ...
... light tent, and some Tota hot lights.

Click to expand...

Do You mean by Tota, You already own Continuos Lights for Studio purposes? Like these, then:



If so, I would extend Your Lighting Equipment toward some Speedlights as more; they also, allow the Photographer to any Manual-mode setting Power like Strobes do. Strobes can not work by AA batteries off on-location, yet.
Keep those Continuos Lights, as good tools!

mgb123 said:

Anton

Click to expand...