Digital Cameras

Hello Everyone,

It strikes me that digital compact zoom cameras of any pretence are both extremely simple and extremely complicated.

A newcomer to digital photography r i.e. coming from film useage must wonder what has hit him or her. On the one hand the utter simplicity and no longer the need to mess about changing lenses is matched by the more venturesome meeting a complexity not before experienced with instruction books for film S.L.R's say.

Clearly there is a big learning curve in respect of cameras like the Kodak P series and the Canon, Nikon and Sony equivalents. To each his own. It strikes me that these manufacturers have given us everything without realising that much education, more than the skimpy instruction manuals give, is required. In inexperienced hands all the features on these cameras are more a minefield, if not used properly - with the awareness of just what settings are needed for a particular picture or circumstance.

Just a few thoughts on the problem of what expectancy we put on new purchases.

Regards,

--
mezzo

i agree with you ....

seem's like some smart person at one of the major photo companies (like Kodak) would pick up on that and offer something to help... its obivious that people who are just breaking into the photo market and have little experiance are buying these cameras (like me p850)
sounds like there would be much proffit in something like that.

if i were kodak..anyone who bought one of my cameras would not have to buy anyother software to really enjoy my products..... if you studied my (kodak) material and used my software.... you could start off way ahead.

--
LiviusSteven

The problem with digital cameras is people think they are like computers and have to have everything done for them, the buying public scream out for more features and the manufacturers oblige.

A perfect example was the Black Mouth Syndrome that was posted here the other day from a P series camera, I believe things like that are as a result of automation gone mad, pushing things too far.

Another example is Photo Album Software, in order to keep ahead of everyone new versions come out all the time, ULead Explorer7 is what I used to organise my Albums for about 4 years, I paid $100 for the latest 8.5 version, they have made a simple program into an overcomplicated piece of rubbish, I have had it on my PC for 6 months, today I removed it and went back to No7.

All this crazy I must have this on my camera and I must have that on my camera is one big Joke, I would love to see some of these clowns use a completely Manual cameras to take their pictures with, they would not have a clue, the cameras need brains to operate, sadly something that is missing in these days of Auto Everything, Lazy is what I call it.

All this screaming and carrying on about ISO speeds is a Joke, people think it is wonderful to have a wide ISO range on a digital camera, gee ISO50 to ISO1600, most film cameras I used had an ISO range from 25 - 6400 so whats the big deal.

I wonder why some folks just dont get out there and use their gear like Jen and a few others instead of getting bogged down with all this Specifications garbage, specifications dont make pictures people do, there have been great pictures taken for over a hundred years, all of a sudden these twits want to rediscover the wheel, another big Joke, I must be getting old but I think some folks need to get a life and save their money.

God Bless
Dave
Downunder.
DX7590 x 2 --- Z730 --- Z700.
The only thing in the World that is perfect is the One that Created it.

Mezzo, I agree completely. Instruction manuals are much to terse--not that conciseness is not a good thing, but too much is left out, perhaps to keep publishing costs down. Most people would benefit from a simple introduction to white balance, focussing mechanics, and an honest explanation of ISO vs noise trade-offs. I guess that's what the phrase "user friendly" is supposed to mean.
****

Many people who have bought their first digital camera (and
maybe their first camera of any kind) seem to expect miracles.

There have been many threads from people who are taking fast-action
shots (maybe in a gymnasium) and want to know what's wrong with their
camera when all the action comes out blurred. They expect the "sports"
mode to give them perfect pictures every time. Or they think image
stabilization in a camera will solve the problem.

And there have also been posts from people who seem to expect the
flash to illuminate scenes that are 20 feet away. And there are many
people who expect the camera to focus quickly in near-dark
conditions.

In short, there seems to be an expectation that, if you buy the right
digital camera, you will get perfect pictures forever. New DSLR
owners continually ask why their DSLR doesn't produce better
pictures than their old, cheaper point-and-shoot.

So I think the manufacturers are always scrambling to make cameras
that can handle any situation (or at least appear to). This results in
all sorts of bells and whistles and menu modes, etc. etc. They know
that they can't make any camera fool-proof, but there's pressure to
try to do so.

Darrell
http://members.aol.com/pixbydg/look/Gallery.html

Darrell, Well said! I wonder if part of the problem is that in the days of using film, we knew we weren't going to "waste" film by taking 10 exposures of the same subject, so we put a lot more thought into each exposure. I remember using my old match-needle exposure meter on a Pentax Spotmatic, and I would conscously add a bit for or less exposure based on the scene and film being used. Now, I admit to having become more careless, thinking I can correct things in Photoshop.
****

reball said:

Darrell, Well said! I wonder if part of the problem is that in the
days of using film, we knew we weren't going to "waste" film by
taking 10 exposures of the same subject, so we put a lot more
thought into each exposure. I remember using my old match-needle
exposure meter on a Pentax Spotmatic, and I would conscously add a
bit for or less exposure based on the scene and film being used.
Now, I admit to having become more careless, thinking I can correct
things in Photoshop.
****

Click to expand...

Hi ****,

I think I also gave more thought to a picture before shooting when
I was using film. I also remember shooting a whole roll of flash
pictures of a shiny trophy with film, because I couldn't be sure
how the glare from the flash would turn out. Digital has increased
my success rate on tough shots, but I still have to give them some
thought when I set them up -- nothing has changed there (except
for Photoshop : )) as you say).

Darrell
http://members.aol.com/pixbydg/look/Gallery.html

I agree - and am one of those people who has bought a P850 without a lot of prior technical photography knowledge. I thought the manual that came with the camera would offer more 'instruction' on the various settings, and have been disappointed. One link (which was posted here at some point) that I have found helpful is the following: http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper/

It explained in better detail about how changing the aperture or other settings will affect your photos.

--
Theresa~~

Hi Mezzo, i totally agree with you

Jen

Mezzo: I fully agree with you. My family owns digital cameras from Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak, and, while the Kodak manual may be a bit easier to read (in English, anyway), none of the manuals I've seen say much about why you would want to use a particular feature, or what that feature's limitations may be. For that kind of information, I frequently refer people to any one of the dozens of good books now on the market about photography that include strong sections on shooting with digital equipment. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've gone through the same kind of confusing process when learning how to use my digital scanner and my high quality photo printer...lots of capabilities with very little instruction. I finally found Rob Shepherd's book on printing digital photographs and now have a solid enough footing that I can feel comfortable. I enhanced that by taking a printing course provided by Epson, which I highly recommend. Nikon and Canon now have full-day courses that travel around the world, teaching participants about digital photography techniques. I took a Nikon course and loved it...and there was no requirement that I use Nikon equipment.

I agree that manufacturers try to make their equipment compete with that of other manufacturers by adding "stuff" , which often seems to promise a higher level of useability, when in fact, it makes the equipment less user-friendly to the casual photographer. One of the things that attracts me to some of the Kodak equipment is precisely that it is easier to use than that which comes from other manufacturers, and the marketplace seems to be rewarding this approach.

Saludos a todos,
--
Aficionado

I think that there's APPARENTLY more confusion about using digital cameras versus film cameras simply because the Internet didn't exist when a lot of us first took up photography and bought our first SLR.

If we were confused/elated/disappointed with our pix and/or choice of camera, we couldn't easily and instantly communicate our viewpoint to a worldwide audience. Therefore, in our own little world, we swallowed our pride, moved on, and hopefully improved our skills base (not that we don't do that now).

I guess we suffered in silence!

Nowadays, as soon as a new model is released, we're onto it like jackals; how big, how fast, how long, does it have OIS etc etc.

If we have a usage problem, it's the same thing; my zooms are blurry, the flash won't flash and the auto stuffs up my moon shots.

Similar problems; different era.

8^}

Very good observations!
--
Aficionado

I agree with you.
I am not so young any more.
Buying an camera can give you a head break by raiding the manuel only.

I do not know who make the manuel,butjumping from one point to another is simple not good.

Its even worse with the Olympus camera's.
manuel on CD
Wat if I want to buy an digital camera,and I do not have an computer ???
I can direct print from camera to printer,but I need an manuel.
and those manuel is on CD or DVD
Smart is it ..
On an $1000 camera atleast there me be an printed manuel.

--
Demarren
Using Olympus E-10 E-300 And C7000
Website http://demarren.zoto.com/

Back in the days when I learned photography we were forbidden to use the exposure needles in the camera (if you had such a highly advanced camera). We had to use the data sheet that came in the box of film (remember those? most folks threw them away without understanding what it was about. Somethings never change...) If you wanted to freeze motion you had to select the shutter speed and then set the aperture to compensate. Of course, you had to thoroughly understand the relationship to do so. Nowadays so many people want all kinds of controls on the camera, yet have no idea how to control it.

My neighbor brought over her brand-spanking new Nikon D50 DSLR - she wanted to show it off to her "camera guy" neighbor. First thing she said was "I know how to use a camera, but how do I compose the shot in the LCD? The manual doesn't seem to cover it..." I told her you can't with a DSLR because of the mirror (among other things) She then said, "well, that's dumb. BUt I'll have learn to get around it. By the way, do you know what all of these things on the LCD (on top of the camera) mean?" I said "yes." She then said, "Well, maybe you can explain it to me - I don't understand the manual at all. And oh, whats 'aperture?'"

So, that's what I mean by having all of the controls but knowing how to control the camera. The ironic thing is, I have a DSLR with all of the bells and whistles - but almost always just use manual modes, or at the most shutter or aperture priority modes.

I understand where Dave is coming from: You have to crawl before you walk, but most folks, while acknowledging this, just want to skip everything for the "Sprint" mode. Afterall, it's the best

That's just a result from the times we live in...we want it yesterday. Most people do not want to take the time to learn the correct way, they want the easiest, quickest way. That's why Auto modes are so popular on cameras. Like Dave said give most of these new "photographers" a fully manual camera and they would be lost...wouldn't be able to shoot a wall and it be in focus. For that matter diable the Auto mode on their current camera, you would probably see the same results as the manual camera test. Personally the only things I want to find a way around are the shortcomings of my camera. You know..."Learn the tool". It's a shame to buy cameras like the P850, DX/Z7590 or any of the others and it never switches from Auto.

I'm still learning this hobby/passion/(to some) profession and I've been at it seriously for the last three years. Can you imagine what a person coming from a strictly P&S to one of these more advanced cameras is going through when he/she doesn't want to learn? They thought just by having an UZ (Ultrazoom) they should be able to get clear, distant shots no matter what. They must call their camera all kinds of names instead of finding out what they did wrong. In other words..."It's not the camera, stupid!"
--
Simon
The More You Shoot, The Better You See

Its not just digital cameras that get people confused, I am the youngest resident in a block of ten home units, all my neighbours come to me with their woes and problems regarding new electronic purchases.

Just about every day someone knocks on the door for help, problems include, no being able to work a Telephone answering machine, alarm clock, tune in a TVset, how do I set my VCR, how do I set my DVD, how do I set my DVD Recorder timer, how do I work my computer, OK I know how to turn my computer on now I have two other boxes that plug in somewhere, what are they, how do I assemble my new fan, cupboard and how do I tune in my car radio, my stereos not working.

Yes I have to make multiple visits to each unit to help my neighbours, this is good for me it has become like a Ministry, you know love thy neighbour, any problems and they say see Dave he knows all about it.

Sadly these elderly citizens are victims of a world where just about everything that could be simple has been made difficult, mainly because people want every feature on every item and are prepared to pay for it.

Many older people came from an era that in order to change channels on a TV you simply got up off your backside and turned a knob, there are tens of millions of people out there who have no idea how to tune a TV in by using a Remote.

And so it goes with cameras, for so many people just taking a simple picture can become a daunting task, as has been said instruction books are almost impossible to understand, some are translated from Chinese to English, no wonder we have trouble reading and understanding them.

As with everything else, camera makers are trying to reinvent the wheel, to do this it has made something quite simple into something that can be very hard for the average Joe, one thing I can tell you, if any camera maker releases a completely manual digital camera, I will be the first in line to get one, how wonderful it would be to use my brains again.
--
God Bless
Dave
Downunder.
DX7590 x 2 --- Z730 --- Z700.
The only thing in the World that is perfect is the One that Created it.

All very true Simon, if we are all forced into having auto everything cameras the same basic camera rules that have been around for over a hundred years apply.

Up until the advent of Digital cameras and even today with film SLRs, the instruction books gave/give a breif explanation of what shutter speed, aperture, focus, depth of field and ISO settings was all about.

I dont know what is so good about digital cameras that the instruction books have done away with this basic but important information, digital cameras are frought with noise problems and other nasties, I would have thought camera basics would have been more important today than ever before.

God Bless
Dave
Downunder.
DX7590 x 2 --- Z730 --- Z700.
The only thing in the World that is perfect is the One that Created it.

The only barrier to entry to buying a high priced camera, like a dslr is money. There is no requirement that you have to know how to frame a pic or know what the difference is between an aperture and an apple. On the other hand, I wouldnt begrudge those who spend the dollars on a camera way in over their heads, similarly I would not begrudge anyone who buys a home at a price beyond their means. I see it all the time in Northern Ca. For those of us in a position to assist others, let's do it. That's how people learn and appreciate this hobby of photography.

Also, this whole discussion about iso options is not a joke. With a digicam, you can take different pics at different isos. In a film camera, you are limited to the iso speed of the film you are using. A real life situation is when you are outdoors for hours and the sun sets, but to capture the shots, you have to adjust your iso to increase light sensitivity. I've done this during my sports shots of our teams. With film, you can do this unless you have more than one camera or at the end of a roll of film.

Hi Ed, have to disagree regarding film cameras having a set ISO level, the ISO setting could be changed on any film, I have done this hundreds of times. it is called Pushing and Pulling.

eg using ISO400 film was not restricted to using it at ISO400, it could be Pushed to ISO800 or Pulled to ISO200, the only consideration that had to be made was the amount of time you had to develop the film, shorter or longer.
--
God Bless
Dave
Downunder.
DX7590 x 2 --- Z730 --- Z700.
The only thing in the World that is perfect is the One that Created it.

I stand corrected. I never even thought of doing this 25 years ago, when I had my Oly OM1.