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I give up...this forum is gettting retarted...

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I enjoy seeing your post on the Birds.

I have been shooting digital for a while. Have UZI, E-10, and E-1 too. I am still learning and consider myself beginner as there is much more to learn.

I find that your post here in particular is (IMHO) distasteful and offensive.

Maybe in your attempt to proclaim your superiority over others you have failed here. If you wish to split do it, but I have to tell you that the repeated threads about "this forum needs to split" are a BIG part of the problem that you are talking about and very redundant.

In this thread, you never asked any questions about photography or the equipment. Seems like in this one there, by the wording of your original post, your were both discourteous and possibly the very "troll" you accuse others of being. Then you say -"but the problem only a few want to learn and the rest are opinionated or just want to grandstand or troll."

IMHO - You can be a good forum member and you are often helpful. If you don't like this forum, maybe you have outgrown it and that other forums might work better for you.

Post something about photography. Be happy.
draydur said:
I'm looking at deja-vu all over again.
sorry to quote yogi, but as an original E-1 owner and early member
of this forum I just am not interested in watching the iterations
of new DSLR owners discovering they are now needing to consider
shutter speed, f stops and available light on their subjects as a
point of ignorance in order to criticize their new camera. A split
forum would cut the wheat from the chaff.

Please split this forum.

well I only post on the Bird anymore anyway so have fun.

I really could care less about most of the cr*p posted here anymore.
but sadly I review it every day...
and it's getting worse.

best to the old ones
sorry I'm so crotchety to the newbys
Mike
--
Draydur
(Mike Lowery) - SF bay area, CA, USA
http://www.pbase.com/draydur
-- All things considered, the final image is all that matters.

Click to expand...
--

'The very fact that I find myself in agreement with you other minds perturbs me, so that I hunt for points of divergence, feeling the urgent need to make it clear that at least I reached the same conclusions by a different route.'
KimR

 
Could somebody please point me in the right direction.

Cheers
Wazza

--
He can't fly but I'm telling you he can run the pants off a kangaroo.........
 
Mike, Raymond, et. al.--

Dealing with perhaps repetitive newbie questions in any forum, be it this one, photography in general, or another area in one's life where one has particular expertise can indeed be tiring--if you choose to look at it that way. There is also a sense of personal pride, not superiority per se, in being able to dispense useful advice to those who share enthusiasm in the same field, or hobby, or some other endeavor as you do.

I am one who is new to dSLR photography, and have found this forum to be very helpful overall in developing my nascent skills. It's generally welcoming, encouraging and constructive in its approach.

Maybe with the infusion of new E-300 and now E-500 owners like myself, perhaps the tenor if it has changed, though I also see a fair amount of discussion about the eventual E-1 successor, for example. But in any case, I regret seeing the negativity, incivility, and, indeed, outright hostility, on the part of the few come to the fore here.

The thread below is one I initiated, and it is one of those "got the camera and here are my first photos" posts, but I absolutely will not apologize for it...and you do not have to follow it if you don't want to. But those who have chosen to respond so far, have done so with useful and valuable ideas for future outings, and as I learn more, I'll do even better. This is exactly what I thought and hoped the forum would be about, mostly.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=15890347

Oh, and as I pointed out in that post, I am reading the manual and I am checking out some decent books--suggested on this very forum--about photography so I can avoid asking something that I can easily research on my own. I'm not asking for a pat on the back, but I cannot be the only newbie doing their homework here, so please give us new folks the benefit of the doubt.

But in the end, I have to ask you, did no one more experienced than you at the time respond to your first posting of photos and offer constructive comments? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but sheesh, how does one ever get to be an old hand at something if they're dismissed so easily simply because they're new or ask the same question for the umpteenth time?

I agree that first-time posters perhaps should do more on their own to research some key basic questions before putting them to the forum. Still, I've seen the responders with experience either patiently answer the question (again), refer them to useful sites/books/articles, and/or gently nudge them to the "search" feature which they may have overlooked.

But, in my opinion, so-called "advice" like "...then, when you have practised for a year or two and still have a vital question, then go to the forum and ask" is over the top, unfair, and essentially ridiculous. I mean, thanks for nothing. It begs the question of what "vital questions" are you "experts" asking? What's the purpose of having a forum at all? It's not an insiders' club when it's so public. Did you lose sight of that?

Maybe a split is in order, but maybe also not for the reasons you offer. Last time I checked, photography--a hobby, not a profession, for most here, I'd imagine--was supposed to be fun. Remember that?

Sigh**

--Bob C
 
draydur said:
I don't have a scepter ... I have tenure.
--
Draydur
(Mike Lowery) - SF bay area, CA, USA
http://www.pbase.com/draydur
-- All things considered, the final image is all that matters.

Click to expand...
If anyone has tenure around here, it would be me. My first digital was the D-600L...guess what? It was a OLY DSLR. Plus I've been using OLYs since 1975. So you have a E-1? pffffft. newbie.
 
OzRay said:
give us country bumpkins some slack.
Click to expand...
Yea ..... but then maybe when the E3 comes out he'll be back ??

(or even a recent Amazon order ..... one never knows......).

Would be nice to have a multitude of oversaturated beach huts to drool over again :-)
 
Hi Bob C,

of course you are right in many ways, and it was a well written statement. But what I wanted to say was that I don't find it interesting to see the "first images" that people take with their new camera, if they are not interesting images (I am not saying good images). So many times again and again we have seen images of subjects "near the house" or inside the homes, because "the weather was not so good" and "I had to try out the new camera". Well, everybody wants to try out a new camera very soon after he/she has gotten it, but they don't have to show them here, do they? Why not wait till they have some interesting photos they would like someones elses opinion about?

Also, regarding feedback, I feel that in this forum you have to be polite. So many times I have seen uninteresting images that very often got the comments "very good, NN!" As a general rule here, I would ask: why did you take this image? A sunset with only sky? Nothing happens in the image at all - except nice colours in the sky. Not enough, IMHO.

About reading about photography. I see that problem in my home. Sometimes my two sons (grown-up) borrow my camera, and they still do no fix the aperture/exposure bit. They understand when I explain - but gone when they try the next time. They are not interested enough to READ about it.

You asked me what a vital question was. I shall give you an example (sorry, my own thread). Returning from a week of photographing beach volleyball, I discovered that some of my images were correctly exposed, others underexposed - in the same light! Someone explained it to me. Here is the thread (images gone now): http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=9488925

I visited your thread. If you are new to dslr photography, you are already doing well. Maybe someone else said it, but here is a small "advice" from me. When you take an image, look all around in your viewfinder before you shoot and see what and what not you will get in the image. You are composing ok in several images, but notice that the sheep has got one foot a little outside the frame. And another rule, not for your images, but for later: if you take a photo of a person and have to "crop" the person, do never krop at any joints. Crop in the middle between the joints, i.e. betweeh the elbow and hand, and so on.

I hope you will forgive me, but I still think too many people want to show us their FIRST image here.
--
Raymond
http://home.online.no/~rwardena
http://www.volleyball.no/t3.asp?p=57227 (E-1)
 
I'm considering buying a E500, and possibly posting pictures here, but I see that DSLR newbies are not to be encouraged , but rather to be restrained in their initial enthousiasm... though there were other times (only 2 years ago) when on this forum was written:

"Just got the E-1 and took this out the car window in the rain. Depth of field is a bit off in the forground of the berries, but I find the camera intuitive (I am a oly 5050 user too) and am pleased with the out of camera results."

to see who wrote this:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=6915193

This was most certainly NOT an iteration of a new DSLR owner?
But most certainly it was the starting point of the retarding process ...

All this is not going to stop me from buying the E500, but it will most certainly prevent me from posting pics here.

And a nice day to you too, Mr D.
draydur said:
I'm looking at deja-vu all over again.
sorry to quote yogi, but as an original E-1 owner and early member
of this forum I just am not interested in watching the iterations
of new DSLR owners discovering they are now needing to consider
shutter speed, f stops and available light on their subjects as a
point of ignorance in order to criticize their new camera. A split
forum would cut the wheat from the chaff.

Please split this forum.

well I only post on the Bird anymore anyway so have fun.

I really could care less about most of the cr*p posted here anymore.
but sadly I review it every day...
and it's getting worse.

best to the old ones
sorry I'm so crotchety to the newbys
Mike
--
Draydur
(Mike Lowery) - SF bay area, CA, USA
http://www.pbase.com/draydur
-- All things considered, the final image is all that matters.

Click to expand...
--
c5050, c770
 
as you can. I know for one that I enjoy seeing photographs taken by a variety of Olympus cameras - because I can learn in the process (if they're good of course), and also what both the equipment (which must be the conduit) and the photographer behind the viewfinder can do.

I know Mike (Draydur) and I'm sure he was just blowing off some steam because yes, many more folks are buying into Olympus now and the end result are more postings. The Oly DSLR forum used to be a quiet place but the good news (looking at the glass half full) is that obviously more folks are buying the E system cameras - and that should bode well for Olympus.

I think what frustrates (irritates?) most of the Oly vets here (if I could use that terminology) are that some of the newer posters (just some) tend to whine continuously, and despite the help of lots of folks, continue to whine until patience levels are worn thin and words pass back and forth. Almost always this is a passing trend and things settle back down for awhile.

In the meantime, keep those E-1, E300, and E500 images coming - but please tell us what you did to capture these (Exif data, etc.).

Thanks,
--
Good shooting...

Ben

 
Stick around, Mike - at least for the bird. You're an asset here. Hit that other site - I'm not on the guest list, but keep dropping buy.

My two pence is to split as well. With more lens and body releases on the horizon, perhaps it will take our volume over the threshold by itself.

Cheers,

--
Rob Davies
Searun
http://www.pbase.com/searun

equipment in profile
 
Ben you really spoke well! Thank you
Ben Herrmann said:
as you can. I know for one that I enjoy seeing photographs taken
by a variety of Olympus cameras - because I can learn in the
process (if they're good of course), and also what both the
equipment (which must be the conduit) and the photographer behind
the viewfinder can do.

I know Mike (Draydur) and I'm sure he was just blowing off some
steam because yes, many more folks are buying into Olympus now and
the end result are more postings. The Oly DSLR forum used to be a
quiet place but the good news (looking at the glass half full) is
that obviously more folks are buying the E system cameras - and
that should bode well for Olympus.

I think what frustrates (irritates?) most of the Oly vets here (if
I could use that terminology) are that some of the newer posters
(just some) tend to whine continuously, and despite the help of
lots of folks, continue to whine until patience levels are worn
thin and words pass back and forth. Almost always this is a
passing trend and things settle back down for awhile.

In the meantime, keep those E-1, E300, and E500 images coming - but
please tell us what you did to capture these (Exif data, etc.).

Thanks,
--
Good shooting...

Ben

Click to expand...
--

'The very fact that I find myself in agreement with you other minds perturbs me, so that I hunt for points of divergence, feeling the urgent need to make it clear that at least I reached the same conclusions by a different route.'
KimR

 
Raymond--

I thank you for your thoughtful comments...it is my hope to one day be an experienced veteran with sufficient knowledge to pass on to others as well.

Your advice and suggestions were appreciated; moving from a Olympus D-550 P&S to an E-500 is quite a jump and more of a challenge than first meets the eye -- you mean you actually have to use the viewfinder? ;-)

In any case, I certainly don't want to simply use the basic/automatic settings (although, occasionally, they have their uses) and get lazy about my photography, but I must admit two things:

(1) Your comments, advice from others, and the variety of related posts on this forum have already made me a better photographer in that I'm thinking more about how to think about photography. I still have to do most of the legwork myself and will take the time to do so. I'm interested.

(2) Learning the aperture/shutter settings, paying attention to other factors in determining the correct exposure (as your other thread points out), appreciating why WB matters, understanding metering options, etc., is not a wholly intuitive process, at least not to me just yet. The book "Understanding Exposure," which I'm still reading, has been enormously helpful, and I'll probably need to read it through a time or two more just to "get" some things.

In the end, I chalk it up to doing the necessary if one is to be successful as in any endeavour. But I also am appreciative that this forum exists so that I can look to those more knowledgeable in figuring out what I could have done differently. Developing an eye, I think, takes both time and attention, and advice from those who know. I hope I can continue to look to folks like you who know what they're doing.

As for posting first pics, I understand that sensation, even if the subjects chosen are, ahem, less than interesting: it's part enthusiasm, part looking for critique. I'm guilty on both counts. But the questions you ask are part of the creative process that, again, may not be intuitive to all. You've given me something to think about next time out -- that's the gift that you all have even if patience occasionally runs low.

Perhaps, to your credit, it should be the second posting of photos--not the first--which might be vastly more interesting and worthy of further comment or dissection.

--Bob C
 
I too am an old film SLR guy (over 30 years of Nikon F’s w/about a dozen lenses). I have taken thousands of available light B&W shots using Tri-X pushed to 1600. I’ve always considered the grain to be part of the atmosphere of those pictures, even part of the charm. Even (B&W) film folks seem to be obsessed with total absence of grain these days. That makes sense if you want to be Ansel Adams, but my hero has always been Weegee.

Speaking of Weegee, don’t forget that the 4/3 format is practically the same AR as the 4x5 format of the classic Graflex Speed Graphic, the true street camera of the photojournalist of the 1930s-1950s. 35mm was invented as a way for movie crews to use strips of movie film to see what the sets would look like on film. It didn’t really come into its own as a serious medium until the 60s with the SLR and better films.

Anyway, I just got the E500 two-lens kit. I followed this forum for a while before making my decision, and I am grateful for all the advice and discussion I found. I expect to learn much from the camera and from you folks. Thanks again.
 
Mike,

you sond like you are missing "old times". One thing is for sure: With the increasing number of Oly dSLR owners, they will not come back. A new forum for the high-end E-X cameras would bring new times.

I second the splitting idea because it will certainly not be forbidden for E-X00, E-X0, and E-X owners to visit both fora. Also, we have many many well experienced, also professional, photographers using E-X00 cameras so there will not be a lack of knowledge in that forum. Conversely, the E-X forum will not be free from newbies as second hand E-1 will be around and there will always be those with a bit more money to spend on a new camera that they actually should.

I think OzRays analogy with the over crowded pub is perfect. Several of the oldies on this forum seem to feel that it is too noisy and now and then raise their voices about 'good old times' and 'the youth of today'.

Take my advice and, until a split is a fact, you must stop reviewing "all the cr@p posted here" every day or consider another place to hang around. There is no reason to let an internet forum kill your spirit. If you don't like a thread - leave it - unread.

Cheers, Jens.
draydur said:
I'm looking at deja-vu all over again.
sorry to quote yogi, but as an original E-1 owner and early member
of this forum I just am not interested in watching the iterations
of new DSLR owners discovering they are now needing to consider
shutter speed, f stops and available light on their subjects as a
point of ignorance in order to criticize their new camera. A split
forum would cut the wheat from the chaff.

Please split this forum.

well I only post on the Bird anymore anyway so have fun.

I really could care less about most of the cr*p posted here anymore.
but sadly I review it every day...
and it's getting worse.

best to the old ones
sorry I'm so crotchety to the newbys
Mike
--
Draydur
(Mike Lowery) - SF bay area, CA, USA
http://www.pbase.com/draydur
-- All things considered, the final image is all that matters.

Click to expand...
--
Everything is possible - miracles are just a bit harder

 
Nice "talking" to you. If you don't mind, I would like to comment on your first images, even if I am only an amateur myself. I thought about doing it by mail to you, but could not get your e-mail address. If you want me to do it by mail, anyway, send me your address. You will find mine under my profile.
--
Raymond
http://home.online.no/~rwardena
http://www.volleyball.no/t3.asp?p=57227 (E-1)
 
From a newbie’s standpoint, I agree with Draydur about posting. If you really must or have the itch to post a picture, please follow simple guidelines:

1. If think you got a winning shot but would like to get “knowledgeable” opinion, please post and ask for constructive criticism.
2. If your camera is acting out of the norm, post the end result.

3. Composition issue. Present your mindset and idea and ask the “how would you compose this differently and why?”

4. Present what you’re trying to produce, show the result (see #1). If it’s not meeting your expectation, ask the why?

I maybe guilty of not applying the above guidelines as well but to find the common ground, we should BE CONSIDERATE of others. You want to show your “uninteresting” picture or “out of the camera” test shot for the purpose of here look, ask for personal emails. I’ve done it to few members here because I don’t think the picture is interesting enough but I’d like to share something funny or cute etc etc...

IMO. Splitting the forum will not solve the problem as long as it’s free site.

Instead of bashing and steaming off and possibly offending others, why not present posting picture guidelines. I’m only suggesting and would rather keep the newbies and veterans in one forum to share knowledge.

Some interesting topics where we can possibly make a difference and divert our energy could be on issue passed the 9th Court district of giving Public school every right to teach children (5 - 6 yrs old) about sex and the Parents not having any say about the issue.

Whatever side you're at, it's good to get involve. Now, let see those pictures.
--
The world is ours to see. Shoot away!!!
 
E-xxx users will have their own space as well as E-x users.

Thus E-xxx users can found the exact place to ask questions, to find answers, to look for pictures, to share pictures, and so on so forth, as well as E-x users.

E-xxx and E-x users can go across to other forum to share general ideas, to ask general questions, to ask questions, ect.

--
E-1,14-54,50-200,FL-36
http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/postgrad/x.zheng/
 
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