Why no 3-CCD digital still cameras?

The issue of video cameras came up b/c Roland claimed that the
color was inferior with a 3 sensor solution
Yepp - the are.
and that 3CCD solutions
were inferior in general.
Now - if something I wrote indicated that - then I was not clear enough. 3 CCD cameras are videly used for video - so they cannot be inferior in general.
The only common examples where we can
compare 3CCD solutions with single CCD solutions are video, so
that's the direction the discussion went.
The reason for the better quality when having 3 sensors for video is that you can have higher resolution. Higher resolution does not equal better color.

Roland
 
Sorry, wrong. Go to SBIG's site and read about their Custom
Scientific
RGB colour filters. Dichroic filters are used because the layering
of the filter material allows for precise cutoffs at certain
frequencies, unlike
dyed glass
Thats very good for scientific pictures - but for photography you need non steep filters, because you need to emulate how the eye works.

Roland
 
3-CCD will require humongous amount of memory for the same quality.
Forget it.
Not really - it is the same amount of memory as Foveon. You get about three times the amount of data with about 3 times the area resolution.

So - the net increase in memory is zero.

Roland
 
Higher area equals bigger pixels equals higher resolution equals less pictures produced equals more memory needed. My example is the Hasselblad H1D which is a 22 megapixel camera with a huge sensor which is double the size of the common 35mm camera sensor in the market. This camera is Opra in size. The 3 CCD camera will be Andre the Giant.
 
I'm guessing it has more to do with Camcorders wanting to split the
image into the 3 channels for direct tv usage, so it's just easier
to do it from the start. Also some speed issues, since DLSRs don't
do 60FPS or whatever tv/film is.
That doesn't makes sense, as TV cameras don't even record in RGB (unlike still cameras).
I would also guess it's big and expensive, and something they would
love to get away from. I didn't know they had them till now.
Most professional and some consumer cams are 3CCD, but single chip Bayer solutions are looking better every day.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.
 
reason for 3CCD cameras is image quality.

Has nothing to do with anything else.

Low light image quality and image quality in general are highly
improved by using 3 CCD's.

In addition pixel shifting technologies are also used to further
enhance resolution.
The image quality from 3 CCD cameras is not high at all. The
dichroic mirrors have very steep cut offs. The color fidelity is
very low.
Not to mention the nasty optical block artifacts (watch Colleteral on the big screen and see!).

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.
 
The image quality from 3 CCD cameras is not high at all. The
dichroic mirrors have very steep cut offs. The color fidelity is
very low.
3 CCD videocameras are generally regarded as having the best image
quality.
Yes, but it's when they are compared to other cameras of the same
class. When you compare a small sensor 3CCD video camcorder to a
single CCD (Bayer primary colour filter) camcorder, both with the
same pixel counts, you get a huge quality improvement with 3-CCD.
However, you should explain why the newest Sony 1080i HD video
camcorders use a single chip (and a CMOS at that!) instead of a
3-CCD array, and produce image quality on par with Canon's 3-CCD
1080i camcorder?
And what about those Dalsa chips in professional Panavision motion
picture cameras? The cameras cost in excess of $100,000, surely
adding two more sensors would not be that much of a burden on that
price, given image quality is paramount for the movie industry.
The Panavision camera is designed with existing 35mm lenses in mind, a 3CCD solution would have been optically complex and consequently expensive or poor.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.
 
I would agree that if you can make a Bayer pattern sensor with 2-4X
the desired output resolution, that downsampling is a reasonable
approach, but this is not done frequently.
But it IS - look for yourself at Sony's smaller camcorder designs.

--
Only a fool breaks the two second rule.
 
I would agree that if you can make a Bayer pattern sensor with 2-4X
the desired output resolution, that downsampling is a reasonable
approach, but this is not done frequently.
But it IS - look for yourself at Sony's smaller camcorder designs.
They're starting to hit this. DV resolution is about 500 lines, so the 2MP sensor models are hitting the bottom of this range, and the 3MP sensor models are in the middle.

As I said, it is not done frequently.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
The issue of video cameras came up b/c Roland claimed that the
color was inferior with a 3 sensor solution
Yepp - the are.
You are wrong, but that's not worst you're doing here. You think you don't even need to read reviews. That's what sometimes called willful ignorance. To make matters worse, you are stating these ignorant things with an entirely unwarranted tone of certainty that could confuse people who don't know better.
and that 3CCD solutions
were inferior in general.
Now - if something I wrote indicated that - then I was not clear
enough. 3 CCD cameras are videly used for video - so they cannot be
inferior in general.
See my comments above on this.
The only common examples where we can
compare 3CCD solutions with single CCD solutions are video, so
that's the direction the discussion went.
The reason for the better quality when having 3 sensors for video
is that you can have higher resolution. Higher resolution does not
equal better color.
Color for 3CCD videocameras is at least as good as the lower end single CCD models. For example, people upgrading from single CCD models to the TRV-900 commented on the improved color fidelity. I've never heard anybody who has actually used the cameras or seen the images claim that the 3CCD models have worse color.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
This thread is not about movie cameras - it is about still cameras.
We've been disagreeing about video cameras, or have you forgotten?
I have only discussed sensor technology.
Shame on you for this dishonest represntation of the discussion!

Remember this:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=15828739

I say that 3CCD videocameras are generally regarded as having the best video quality and you say, "Actually - no."

You're so certain of this that you even go so far as to say that you don't need to read reviews. Later, when it becomes clear that many of the best cameras are, in fact, 3CCD cameras, you change your story to say that you have only discussed sensor technology.

You said that 3CCD cameras didn't produce better images. You were wrong. Don't try to claim you said something else.

The problem with your line of reasoning is your total lack of interest in the facts about real devices.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Shame on you for this dishonest represntation of the discussion!
Now - name calling is not becoming.
I say that 3CCD videocameras are generally regarded as having the
best video quality and you say, "Actually - no."
You have taken that answer out of the context. No matter how many times I have told you exactly what I meant - you still go on and on and on at try to prove that I meant something else than I did. Don't you think that I myself knows best what I meant?

Maybe I was unclear. Maybe it could be misunderstood. Maybe I wrote hastily. But - don't you think it is time now to accept what I meant - even if it might have been clumsy said?

Whats most important to you - to go on and on and repeat that I am dishonest and a generally bad person - or to discuss the actual topic?

Roland
 
Higher area equals bigger pixels equals higher resolution equals
less pictures produced equals more memory needed. My example is the
Hasselblad H1D which is a 22 megapixel camera with a huge sensor
which is double the size of the common 35mm camera sensor in the
market. This camera is Opra in size. The 3 CCD camera will be Andre
the Giant.
Sorry - I do not understand what you are trying to say.

How is this a proof that 3 CCD sensors uses more memory?

Roland
 
I doubt if 3 CCD camera is necessary when a 22 megapixel sensor like the Hasselblad H1D is sufficient. To maximize the use of 22 megapixel then you have to use the achievable resolution of 5440 x 4080 but you have to sacrifice less pictures taken per 1 GB of memory card. In short, to take pictures of this resolution will require more memory. On the other, if the 3CCD cannot produce the same resolution of 5440 x 4080 then there is no point making it. In my opinion, the 3-CCD sensors used in video camera are important to maximize light because the media used in video cameras like the mini-DV or DVDs have lower resolutions which practically limits the maximum resolution of the video camera. The cost of the resulting 3 CCD camera could also go through the roof because you need a complex lens design to compensate for the three CCDs.
 
I doubt if 3 CCD camera is necessary when a 22 megapixel sensor
like the Hasselblad H1D is sufficient. To maximize the use of 22
megapixel then you have to use the achievable resolution of 5440 x
4080 but you have to sacrifice less pictures taken per 1 GB of
memory card. In short, to take pictures of this resolution will
require more memory. On the other, if the 3CCD cannot produce the
same resolution of 5440 x 4080 then there is no point making it. In
my opinion, the 3-CCD sensors used in video camera are important to
maximize light because the media used in video cameras like the
mini-DV or DVDs have lower resolutions which practically limits the
maximum resolution of the video camera. The cost of the resulting 3
CCD camera could also go through the roof because you need a
complex lens design to compensate for the three CCDs.
Whoa ... you write much ... and compact :)

1. You cannot really align a 22 Mpixel 3 CCD camera on a per pixel level.

2. If you could align three large sensors - then you would not need three 22 Mpixels per sensor to reach the same resolution as one 22 Mpixel sensor. You would rather need three 8 Mpixel sensors to achive the same resolution.

4. You are correct - the 3 CCD camera will be very expensive.

5. Where did point 3 go ?

Roland
 
Shame on you for this dishonest represntation of the discussion!
Now - name calling is not becoming.
I'm not calling you names; I'm describing a behavior which I have found quite irritating.
I say that 3CCD videocameras are generally regarded as having the
best video quality and you say, "Actually - no."
You have taken that answer out of the context. No matter how many
times I have told you exactly what I meant - you still go on and on
and on at try to prove that I meant something else than I did.
Don't you think that I myself knows best what I meant?
I don't think the context changes anything. I was making the point that in practice 3CCD solutions work quite well for lower resolution devices. (Note that mentioned the alignment issue myself earlier on, so I'm not arguing about the alignment difficulties.)

It certainly seemed like you were disputing this pretty vehemently. Now, perhaps you aren't disputing this point and we can agree that 3CCD video cameras in practice have good color. Now, if we agree on this, then we need to ask how to reconcile this with you earlier statements, such as,

"The image quality from 3 CCD cameras is not high at all. The dichroic mirrors have very steep cut offs. The color fidelity is very low."

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=15824307

So, how is that an approach with inherently bad color fidelity is used in the best video cameras which are known for good color fidelity and used in applications where color fidelity matters?

I supsect the difficult is that you are conflating a feature of a simple dichroic filter with what you belief to be a necessary property of an actual filter and camera system. IOW, it is possible, and perhaps even easier, to make a dichroic filter (or mirror, or prism) with a sharp cutoff, but it is not a requirement of all devices that incorporate dichroic materials.

Let's see what some others have said about dichroic filters:

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dichroic_filter

Note this sentence in the list of advantages:

" Ability to easily fabricate a filter to pass any passband frequency and block a selected amount of the stopband frequencies (saturation)"

The author has indiated that a dichroic filter can can easily be fabricated to pass a selected amount of the stopband frequencies. This implies that cutoff does NOT need to be steep.

Note that even if we think the cutoff will need to be some kind of step function with a few different height steps, depending upon the number of layers used, the step function can be combined with single color, traditional filters, on the individual CCDs to give the desired slopes.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dichroic_filter

Note this sentence in the list of advantages:

" Ability to easily fabricate a filter to pass any passband
frequency and block a selected amount of the stopband frequencies
(saturation)"
This is about a single dichroic filter. Not about a beam splitter. With a dichroic filter, it is very easy to pass and block light selectively. But when you require two, three, or more outputs, they cannot overlap.
The author has indiated that a dichroic filter can can easily be
fabricated to pass a selected amount of the stopband frequencies.
This implies that cutoff does NOT need to be steep.
True. But it is impossible to allow overlap. Regardless of how steep cutoff is, no overlap can occur. It is natural in dye filters, such as in Bayer colour masks, where a green pixel allows some of the light blue and red pixels let in, a blue pixel admits only blue light and some of green, but the red pixel not only lets in red light, but also has some overlap in the blue range to detect violet (red is captured by R pixels alone, orange with R and some G, yellow with R ang G, green with G, cyan with G and B, blue with B and R, and violet with B only). This is what allows very good colour accuracy. With dichroic filters you work with single bands, and there is no overlap possible for boundaries and they are very susceptible to metamerism.
Note that even if we think the cutoff will need to be some kind of
step function with a few different height steps, depending upon the
number of layers used, the step function can be combined with
single color, traditional filters, on the individual CCDs to give
the desired slopes.
Yeah, yeah, desired slopes overlap, and with a dichroic filter you are unable to avoid that.
 

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