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A Rebuttal of the DPReview S80 Official Review

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Darin Cline said:
If we are going to limit ourselves to the needs of the
typical "shoot and print" market, there's really no need to come
out with any new cameras, and certainly no need to review any more.
The current crop of cameras is sufficient.
Click to expand...
Not true. I'd love a P&S camera with 28-200mm zoom, image stabilization, useable ISO 1600, fast accurate auto-focus, fast shot-to-shot speed (around .1 second) natural colors even in difficult lighting situations, some choice of ISO, and deep vs. narrow depth of exposure, good macro ability, good ergonomics, that will fit in my jacket pocket.

I'm guessing a lot of companies will have this on the market in 5 years. Until then, even the P&S crowd needs to make real choiced.

Dark Goob:
Darin Cline320028 said:
I'm sorry, I missed the "We are a site run by and for purists" part on the About Us page.
Click to expand...
Funny, I could tell that from the style and quality of the reviews, and from the nature of the comments in the forum. As a sort of techie P&S gal, I find this level and style of information very helpful, even if it doesn't always exactly correspond to what I plan to do. I expect good camera salesmen can also translate.

Simon writes:
Darin Cline320028 said:
I use these cameras all day every day and I can tell you now the Olympus UI is one of the fiddliest, most > counter-intuitive there is. It's fine for point and shoot, but not if you want to change things like White > Balance or ISO regularly.

I disagree. I use them every day as well. Olympus is not counter-intuitive at all. You press menu, a menu > comes up. It is the one menu to access all the camera's functions. How is this counter-intuitive? How > much simpler can you get than this:
Click to expand...
Funny - I bought my first Canon because my husband had an Oly and the menus drove me nuts. It took maybe 7 clicks to do simple stuff like turn on the exposure bracketing. I understand that Oly's menus have improved, but I have loved the interface of every Canon I've ever tried. (And I've tried a lot, even if I've only bought two.) There's certainly a point when you have too many buttons - you reach it when you either have to hunt for the button you want or when you start hitting buttons by mistake. I haven't had either problem with any Canon I've tried, including the S70 (haven't handled the S80). The scroll-wheel on the S80 sounds sort of like the scroll wheel on the i-pod, which is terriffic for me and most of the millions of other people who've used it, despite it taking perhaps 15 minutes to "get used to" it. So I'm inclined to think Simon's opinion is predictive of my likely experience should I buy this gadget.

Dark Goob:
Darin Cline320028 said:
It would be interesting if Consumer Reports or someone did a report on these repair rates. I'd be curious to > know if its a trend or just something anomolous.
Click to expand...
I just checked my November 2005 Consumer Reports. It lists repair rates for common digital cameras. they are all about the same, except for some weird ones.

Percent of digital cameras that have been repaired or developed serious problems (excl SLRs).
"Differences of less than 4 points aren't meaningful":
Sony 3
Panasonic 4
Canon 5
Olympus 5
Fuji 6
Casio 6
Nikon 6
Kodak 6
HP 7
Pentax 7
Konica/Minolta 7
Toshiba 9
Vivitar 10

From 187,000 reader's reports. Results standardized to eliminate differences based on age and useage.

(I hope this isn't enough info as to be a copywrite violation.)
 
dkr919 said:
Very interesting rebuttal to the rebuttal of the rebuttal. . .

That said there are subtle biases used all the time and you may not
even realize it. As an example, a poll was taken of the mainstream
media and ninety percent said they voted Democrat most of the
time. You don't think they shade the information to their point of
view? Check the poll numbers for trustworthiness of the media and
the backlash against them from the last US election.
Click to expand...
. . .

Of course, there's always the question of cause and effect. Do camera reviewers favor Canon because of bias, or because really knowledgeable people think Canon makes good cameras? Similarly, do journalist bias their news, or do people who actually understand the issues and know what info is reliable tend to lean Democratic? Probably a little of both in both situations.
 
Unfortunately or fortunately we don't have camera shop staff like Mr. Dark Goob or else we will have to take a day of lesson in the camera shop before buying a pack of NiMH battery...
 
Right on Re the Xd card, I just purchased a Fuji F10 strictly for its high ISO performance. Already I have had to launch extensive searches for the card as it flew out of my fingers. And I can't use my card reader or my portable CD burner without purchasing a $ 50 Xd to CF adapter.

The Olympus seems to have few redeeming qualities, at least the Fuji has VG image quality at all ISO settings.
 
The fable of the three blind men describing the elephant. Here we have 1) the professional camera reviewer, 2) the camera shop worker, and 3) the camera users. Each is correct from his own limited position.

--mamallama
dkr919 said:
Very interesting rebuttal to the rebuttal of the rebuttal.
Click to expand...
 
Do you spend as much time and energy into your everyday relationships, endeavors, and pursuits as you put into this posting about..of all thing "a camera?" I mean to say that these are purely material things - cameras, if you wil,l and the magic behind any image is the person behind the viewfinder. Wow, sounds like you are needing something else to do with your spare time. I've seen passion before, but it was mostly well placed. Good lord, I have both Olympus and Canon cameras - but none of this was worth the superfluous discourse that is being batted back and forth.

From reading your posts, you strike me as the kind of guy who would go into a restaurant and see the item "fresh fish" on a menu - and then spend the rest of the time arguing with the waiter/waitress about when the fish were actually caught - that it possibly cannot be fresh, and that somehow "fresh" constitutes false advertising. Geezzzzzz....
--
Good shooting...

Ben

 
Of course, there's always the question of cause and effect. Do camera reviewers favor Canon because of bias, or because really knowledgeable people think Canon makes good cameras? Similarly, do journalist bias their news, or do people who actually understand the issues and know what info is reliable tend to lean Democratic? Probably a little of both in both situations.

To be fair, I think most people would agree that bias is extremely hard to avoid. But that's the value of a free society, that we can have discussion and debate. And it tells you something about the quality of DPReview, that they allow these forums and even respond to the posts here.

Do referees favor U.S.C. because they won the last two national titles? Do they get calls going in their favor a lil too often? These questions can apply in many areas of life aside from camera reviews. But I've never seen college football referees respond to posts on a message board!
The fable of the three blind men describing the elephant. Here we have 1) the professional camera reviewer, 2) the camera shop worker, and 3) the camera users. Each is correct from his own limited position.

That's a good way of looking at it. Hopefully through the dialectic here we can widen all of our perspectives. :-)

-=DG=-
 
dark goob said:
To be fair, I think most people would agree that bias is extremely
hard to avoid. But that's the value of a free society, that we can
have discussion and debate. And it tells you something about the
quality of DPReview, that they allow these forums and even respond
Click to expand...
Yup, great forum (and I appreciate living in a free society, too.) Yes, we all have biases. When I went camera shopping last month, I was certainly biased by my frustrating experience with the Oly, and my great experience with the older Canon. I wonder if I wouldn't really have been better off with the Fuji F10. But I'm extremely happy with my Canon A610, so all's well that ends well.
 
I agree with the comments about returns for Canon cameras having poor build quality.

I've had to send my S400 in so many times I've now spent more on repairs than I've spent to buy the camera. And it's not just the cost but the time I don't have the camera to use.

It breaks over almost nothing, a tap from an umbrella handle and it broke, I've never owned a camera that breaks down so easily.

After this experience if I buy another Canon I will get the BEST warranty possible. And it does make a durable camera like the Muju look like a relief to own. I worry whenever I take out my Canon and don't dare carry it in my purse, it might bump against another item and break down again.

So I appreciate the comments.

Hollie
 
dark goob said:
The fable of the three blind men describing the elephant. Here we
have 1) the professional camera reviewer, 2) the camera shop
worker, and 3) the camera users. Each is correct from his own
limited position.

That's a good way of looking at it. Hopefully through the dialectic
here we can widen all of our perspectives. :-)

-=DG=-
Click to expand...
Absolutely. That's the point of the fable. But the blind man who doesn't listen to the other two and keep insisting on his own description will never get the complete picture of the elephant. Unfortunately, based on what I read here, that's mostly what I see happening.

--mamallama
 
Dark goob, the reason your review got "attacked," probably somewhat unfairly by some, is that you came close to attacking Simon Johnson's integrity, when you intimated that the reason he "overlooked" the faults of the Canon was because he was paid by Canon. Since you recognize ad hominem attacks, you need to realize that you threw the first grenade.

Let's face it--some things are more important to each of us than others. For me, the 28mm lens on the S80 is very important; for others, they don't seem to care, and a 38mm "wide" is ok. So, I always read any review recognizing that, while the reviewer tries to be fair, we all have our own biases and preferences.

I have owned both Olympus and Canon cameras, and have loved both brands. (By the way, the person who said that Olympus never made a camera with a 28mm wide angle lens must never have tried the C-8080, one of the best cameras in its class!)

Anyway, I think you raise some valid points, but maybe you could be a bit more careful with your choice of words.

Thanks.
 
This kind of exchange is perfectly normal and should be encouraged, that's why we have the forum, Ben, for the purists, and purists are like that. And only purists bothers to search the internet for reviews!

Anyway from a report, purists only makes up a very minute proportion of the DC users. Other "less important" things actually make up the majority.

The report says factors which influence a person's ultimate choice of cameras are:

1. 80% - Form factors like megapixels, screen size, movie modes, size, looks, colors, physical design

2. 15% - Features like wide angle, in camera processing, pictbridge, high ISO, WB, cycle times, etc
3. 5% - absolute image quality (like most of us here)

Everybody wants the best image quality, but when it comes to actually buying a camera, it is the least thing on their mind.

For people like us, who think image quality is of paramount importance, uncompromizable, actually makes up only 5% of the market.

One of my girl friend asked me for a recommendation for a good DC. After taking about 2 hours explaining to her, even recommended models like Canon SD550, Stylus800, S80, Fuji F10, all the highly rated models, she went to a store and finally bought a Sony T7. I asked her angrily, "WHY Sony T7 ? It takes crappy pictures!" She said she liked the sleek design and body color. Now go figure!
Ben Herrmann said:
Do you spend as much time and energy into your everyday
relationships, endeavors, and pursuits as you put into this posting
about..of all thing "a camera?" I mean to say that these are
purely material things - cameras, if you wil,l and the magic behind
any image is the person behind the viewfinder. Wow, sounds like
you are needing something else to do with your spare time. I've
seen passion before, but it was mostly well placed. Good lord, I
have both Olympus and Canon cameras - but none of this was worth
the superfluous discourse that is being batted back and forth.

From reading your posts, you strike me as the kind of guy who would
go into a restaurant and see the item "fresh fish" on a menu - and
then spend the rest of the time arguing with the waiter/waitress
about when the fish were actually caught - that it possibly cannot
be fresh, and that somehow "fresh" constitutes false advertising.
Geezzzzzz....
--
Good shooting...

Ben

Click to expand...
 
Hi Todd

I said Oly has never made a wide angled COMPACT DC. C8080 is not even close to a compact. For its size, I would rather buy an SLR.

My claim is still valid : Oly had never ever made a wide angled compact DC in its entire history. It simply lacked the technology to do so.

Todd Beall wrote:
By the way, the person who said that Olympus never made a
Todd Beall said:
camera with a 28mm wide angle lens must never have tried the
C-8080, one of the best cameras in its class!)
Click to expand...
 
Hi Todd,

I said Oly has never made a wide angled COMPACT DC. C8080 is not even close to a compact. For its size, I would rather buy an SLR.

My claim is still valid : Oly had never ever made a wide angled compact DC. It simply lacked the technology to do so.
Todd Beall said:
(By the way, the person who said that Olympus never made a
camera with a 28mm wide angle lens must never have tried the
C-8080, one of the best cameras in its class!)
Click to expand...
 
The C7070 is not very small but it is smaller than the 8080....I don't consider these big cameras, but they certainly are bigger than the canon S models.

They also take very nice and sharp pics without PP.
garyydpreview said:
Todd Beall said:
(By the way, the person who said that Olympus never made a
camera with a 28mm wide angle lens must never have tried the
C-8080, one of the best cameras in its class!)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Please don't take this wrong but "" passionate"" writers need passionate
readers. Of coarse it took him longer to type this than you to read it,
unless he's a really good typist, which makes you the passionate one.
Just leveling the playing field alittle. Cheers. 8-D
--
Keith Lawrence
Perryville,Mo. USA

http://www.pbase.com/keithallenlaw

Canon Powershot S2
Olympus Stylus Epic Zoom 115 (film)
 
Right on Re the Xd card, I just purchased a Fuji F10 strictly for its high ISO performance. Already I have had to launch extensive searches for the card as it flew out of my fingers. And I can't use my card reader or my portable CD burner without purchasing a $ 50 Xd to CF adapter.

The Olympus seems to have few redeeming qualities, at least the Fuji has VG image quality at all ISO settings.

Are you suggesting XD cards migrate? I haven't had this problem with mine. Maybe there are some loose swallows in your house?

Anyway, yeah, it's annoying that you can't use XD in things like that CD burner (those are pretty cool BTW). It also sucks that the XD-to-CF adapter is so pricey.

But frankly most people don't use portable CD burners, and so unless you have one, this is not an issue. A card-reader that can read everything from SmartMedia to XD is about $30. So unless you have a specialized device like the Epson P2000/4000 or a printer or CD burner that lacks an XD slot, it's a non-issue.

Also I don't see that SD cards are enough bigger than XD to make them any harder to drop and lose. Same with Memory Stick Duo.

Furthermore, Olympus has plenty of redeeming qualities, which either you ignore or don't care about... but either way, weather-proofing, nice screens, sharp lenses... I would take an Olympus any day over a Sony or Kodak or Konica-Minolta or HP or Samsung etc. I really like FujiFilm cameras as well, for the reasons you talk about. Canon is great. Nikon is going down the toilet with their latest plasticy batch with bad screens and slow performance, though.

-=DG=-
 
Funny - I bought my first Canon because my husband had an Oly and the menus drove me nuts. It took maybe 7 clicks to do simple stuff like turn on the exposure bracketing

Yeah, maybe I take for granted that, as a touch-typist and pianist, and avid video game player, a few extra clicks to get where I'm going is inconsequential compared to the danger of accidentally pressing something when I don't mean to because there are too many controls too close together or poorly designed controls.

To me, the action of pressing "menu," right-right, down-down, to get to the ISO setting on the Stylus 800, takes less than one second, and is easily memorizable. Since the menu responds as fast as I can press the buttons, and there is a nice, firm, tactile click to the controller, then I know what I'm doing and I can do it very quickly. I don't see how this is any worse than the Canon, where you hit Func. to get to the Func. menu, then you click three or four times to get to whichever option you want. True, the ISO is now on the click-wheel with the S80, and you can just change it by simply pressing up, but I actually don't like this because it makes it too easy to accidentally change ISO. If I accidentally turn on the flash, that's fine, because I'll notice that I did when the flash fires. But ISO, you won't know you changed it until it's too late in a lot of cases.

I'm unlikely to accidentally do this, however, on the Olympus. I like that because I can't accidentally change ISO by putting the camera in my bag while it's turned on, or by grasping it with my thumb on the wrong part, like on the S80. But it's a trade-off, because with the S80 you could do manual ISO bracketing a lot easier, I can't argue with that.

Speaking of which, when will there be a camera with an automatic ISO bracketing feature? Or has there been?

I also tend to do a lot of outdoor event photography in large, often highly mobile crowds, and so being able to firmly grip the camera (not just by an improvised nub in the upper corner, but by its center of gravity, where it feels natural to hold it) is kind of important to me. The S80 is poorly designed for this, because of the huge screen and proliferation of buttons. The Stylus 800 is much better to hold, due to a cleaner design with more thumb space and protected screen. Just so you know where I'm coming from :-)

I liked the S70 a lot for that reason as well, BTW. Easy to hold.

-=DG=-
 
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