Canon v. Nikon

Fred Greaves said:

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have a small fortune
invested in all sorts of Canon glass (14mm to 400mm f2.8), flashes,
cords, cables, batteries, chargers and all the other expensive
little toys.

Even if Nikon came out with an 8mp,, 12 frame per second camera
that was smaller than a Leica, I can hardly afford to sell all my
stuff to switch over to Nikon.

I have no desire to have a complete set of Nikon and Canon
equipment, either. I bought into the Canon system and have been
very happy with it. I have been using DCS520's for the last couple
of years and a D30 as well for the last year or so. I've already
ordered 2 of the 1D's and eagerly await their arrival. I'm sure
they will be wonderful. But even if the new camera wasn't as cool
as this one is, I still would stick with Canon because of the
investment in the equipment.

Fred

Fred Greaves
Photojournalist
Southern California
http://www.fredgreaves.com

Click to expand...

One can hardly read this thead without saying something, I have been shooting for 25+ years (That hurts) and if there is one thing that I have learned, it is that cameras do not take great photographs, People do.

The top shooters that I have been lucky work with over the years, can make photographic art with a pin hole camera.

Many people have written much in these forums about which cameras are really "Pro", who's cameras are the "best", My feeling is that whatever camera that will use, is the best camera.

That's my 2 cents - Steven

I work for a photo department that uses Nikon, this probably started 30 years ago and just continued. All the photogs have there own cameras but we do share some of the exoctic lenses, the battery chargers work for D1, D1x and F5, so every one doesn't need to bring in there own charger and if we need a seldom use lens we can borrow it. We all own about 20-50K of equipment. so we arn't about to switch brands, but in the beginning if the choice had been Cannon I think the result would be the same. In other words, if the camera fairy said "you guys have to switch to Cannon but it won't cost you anything" I don't think any of our 6 FT photogs would put up a battle.

Does Chris Ranier really love Cannon or did they offer him all the equipment he wanted and a paid PR tour? I don't know the answer but I think I can speek for my department and say we would jump on that boat.
Roy Feldman
Ford Photographic

I agree that both systems are tough. But then again, what is wrong with having bith systems? There are photographers who use 35, medium and large format cameras, owning lenses for all. I for one have finally sold off the last of my medium format and am using 35 and digital. The Nikon system is mainly used for more portraiture and product in general, while Canon is used for fast moving opportunities like sports and nature. Now I don't strictly adhere to these rules, but both systems (atleast for me) work perfectly well. And as for the results, no matter what system I use, the check is still the same.
As for a post like this, well there are wars fought over less heated topics.
just my two cents worth
tom

Mark said:

NPS- will not allow college students
CPS- does, which is great when you are young and don't have 8-10
grand for a 400 2.8 and your on the road to cover a football game.

I recently switched from Nikon to Canon. I do have to say that the
user interface is a lot different but the autofocus is definitely
faste. And anyone who says that an F5 is tougher than a 1v is
kidding themselves. Not to mention the fact that the lenses are far
more weather resistant. I know several shooters who don't even
cover thier Canon equipment when it's pouring rain at a football
game. ( Not a good move in my opinion but then again they don't
seem to have any problems with their gear.)

It just seems to me that Canon is always one step ahead and that by
the time that Nikon catches up their stuff is 500 bucks more
expensive and no better than the Canon gear.

Anyway great thread.

Click to expand...

Bill Dewey said:

You are planning, then, on acquiring a 1D vs. a D1 family D-SLR?

Click to expand...

Depending on what you need the D30 can be fine pro tool. If you don't need a super hardened wetherproof camera, and you don't need super AF in low light, and don't need a "fast" frame rate the D30 is a wonderful camera. As long as one doesn't need those things the D30 is far cheaper then the 1D, and the D1x, and I think the D1h.

You might ask what lame-ass-pro-wanna-be doesn't need to shoot in the rain, track a hockey puck in bad stadimum lighting, or catch whatever it is you get with 8 FPS and not 3 FPS.

I would imagine many portrait photographers don't shoot in bad light, just their own light. Not in the rain, but indoors, or outside in the sun.

Most studio product photographers would also be indoors where it seldom rains, and shooting in only good light.

I do understand that many pros would sometimes want rain proof cameras because they might want to do a few shoots in the rain, or when it might rain. They might need better AF, or a faster frame rate, but that is just plain not all of them. If that is the case the D30 just isn't for them. Over the last year the choices were to stick with film, to switch to Nikon, or to use one of the very costly Kodak Canon cameras. In fact that remains the choice now, but pretty soon they will also be able to choose the EOS-1D, if that fits their budget.

Once the 1D hits the market there is still room for pros who mostly only need what the D30 provides, they can afford a D30 plus a EOS-3 for less then the 1D (I'm not sure about the 1V, you might be able to buy a D30 plus a 1V for less then the 1D).

Personally I wish the D30's AF were a bit better (like it were a EOS-3 with a digital imager, not more like a ELAN), but the Canon lenses (IS all over the product line) and wireless E-TTL are good enough to keep me with Canon, even if they don't have quite the camera I want. Yet.

Is Nikon better for you? Could be, but there is no reason to belittle the fine D30 as a mere family camera. Belittle it as a fragile studio camera.

Member said:

It goes like this. When the rafts break through the wave, thing's start to happen.

Click to expand...

Are you on the shore with the camera on a tripod, or in another raft? If you aren't using a tripod, Canon's IS may help a lot with sharpness (or only some if you are using Nikon's one VR lens, which is quite possable since it may be a fine length for this)

Member said:

If the guide goes up in the air (which is always unpredictable, such as how high) I have to view the entire frame and pick a focus point somewhere [...] Without a cord from my brain to the autofocus control in the camera I need to manually pick a compromise point in a very short period of time and also set up for the next shot(s) in the sequence. Whole frame focus rather than point focus is something I taught myself years ago. The funny thing is, I have to look for smilling faces and no paddles blocking the face and lots of water splash before I can punch the button...it's fun. Like I said earlier, Canon's retina control loses it's mind as my eye moves all over the frame.

Click to expand...

Canon doesn't have eye control focus in any of their digitals anyway. However it has pretty fast selection over the 45 point AF "ellipse" with the two dials, that may work out for you. Failing that, manual focus, or manual touch up from the auto focus is about all there is.

P.S. you said something about "one touch focus", what is that? Is it anything like the focus pre-sets on some of the Canon lenses (you can set, i think, two focus positions, and get them by twisting the quick focus ring left or right, then touch up the focus manually)?

Canon does have some nice stuff, but they don't have all the nice stuff. It may just plain be that Nikon works better for this, or at least better with people with your style of shooting.

Member said:

[...] if Nikon does catch up with IS lenses I can put them on my old F2 as well as the D1.

Click to expand...

If it is anything like their existing VR lens it won't do the VR part unless the camera body has five AF points, and was built to communicate with a VR lens. I doubt it will change since Nikon seems to be avoiding patents in the area by using the combo of the body and lens vs. Canon which uses only the lens. In thery that sould actually make VR cheaper, but so far we have not seen that.

Member said:

But I have been looking around lately...asking the Canon and Nikon shooters why one or the other.....

Click to expand...

For me seeing IS up and down the line, and seeing that Canon has an intrestst in either high end consumer, or low end pro digital SLRs vs. Nikon which has only costly pro digital SLRs (which would not be a disadvantage if I wanted and was willing to pay for all those things!).

Other folks may see things difrently, and pick Nikon, and be very much right (for themselves).

But if you feel, as some pros who have used both the Canon and Nikon high end digitals, that the 1D eliminates the need for both the Nikon D1x and D1h, the Canon 1D is way under $500 less.

Roger

Bill Dewey said:

Mark said:

NPS- will not allow college students
CPS- does, which is great when you are young and don't have 8-10
grand for a 400 2.8 and your on the road to cover a football game.

I recently switched from Nikon to Canon. I do have to say that the
user interface is a lot different but the autofocus is definitely
faste. And anyone who says that an F5 is tougher than a 1v is
kidding themselves. Not to mention the fact that the lenses are far
more weather resistant. I know several shooters who don't even
cover thier Canon equipment when it's pouring rain at a football
game. ( Not a good move in my opinion but then again they don't
seem to have any problems with their gear.)

It just seems to me that Canon is always one step ahead and that by
the time that Nikon catches up their stuff is 500 bucks more
expensive and no better than the Canon gear.

Anyway great thread.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Stripes

The one touch I'm refering to is a zoom that has one collar for focus and zooming, thus allowing me to follow the action on the rafts as they move toward me and also keep focus. A two touch has a ring for each step. The 45 points of focus don't help either...the camera or the shooter can't plan ahead or change points on the fly...the action is too fast and all over the place...nothing like football or basketball where you can follow one subject and preset optional focus points. In my work, unfortunatly, I need to manual focus a moving object with 7 subjects that could land anywhere as they crash on through...and very quickly at that. I have been looking around lately, asking questions and what have you. So far Nikon is the Only digital camera that allows for an 80-200 2.8 one touch zoom ( Nikon discontinued these so the 6 or 7 that I own are all thats left). Canon changed the mounts so their one touch 80-200 doesn't fit on anything other than a non-digital F1 or a T90 (which I own also). The new EOS 1D looks good and appears to have easier to use software than what I have. I am a Nikon shooter but I'm always open to anything good...especially in my line of work. I shoot from boulders I need to swim to or from the shore or go to places where I need to boat in.

Dennis Stiff

stripes said:

Member said:

It goes like this. When the rafts break through the wave, thing's start to happen.

Click to expand...

Are you on the shore with the camera on a tripod, or in another
raft? If you aren't using a tripod, Canon's IS may help a lot with
sharpness (or only some if you are using Nikon's one VR lens, which
is quite possable since it may be a fine length for this)

Member said:

If the guide goes up in the air (which is always unpredictable, such as how high) I have to view the entire frame and pick a focus point somewhere [...] Without a cord from my brain to the autofocus control in the camera I need to manually pick a compromise point in a very short period of time and also set up for the next shot(s) in the sequence. Whole frame focus rather than point focus is something I taught myself years ago. The funny thing is, I have to look for smilling faces and no paddles blocking the face and lots of water splash before I can punch the button...it's fun. Like I said earlier, Canon's retina control loses it's mind as my eye moves all over the frame.

Click to expand...

Canon doesn't have eye control focus in any of their digitals
anyway. However it has pretty fast selection over the 45 point AF
"ellipse" with the two dials, that may work out for you. Failing
that, manual focus, or manual touch up from the auto focus is about
all there is.

P.S. you said something about "one touch focus", what is that? Is
it anything like the focus pre-sets on some of the Canon lenses
(you can set, i think, two focus positions, and get them by
twisting the quick focus ring left or right, then touch up the
focus manually)?

Canon does have some nice stuff, but they don't have all the nice
stuff. It may just plain be that Nikon works better for this, or
at least better with people with your style of shooting.

Click to expand...

JEllis said:

And just for the record, it's not about cameras it's about
pictures. " My camera is like I use my toothbrush, it just get's
the job done"

Click to expand...

JEllis said:

And to answer another question I moved from 2 F5's, 17-35, 28-70,
80-200, 3002.8 and 50 1.4 and SB 28's to the equiv. Canon glass and
1v's. I have a D30 also which I love but I am looking forward to the 1D.

Click to expand...

Geez Mark. Sounds like a gold toothbrush to me. When I shot for my college paper, I had my life savings invested in a beatup A2 with a 28mm, the 70-200 and a couple 540s. And I got really tired of snooty rich kids bitching that CPS wouldn't send them a 400mm 2.8. Whatever Richie. Tell us about that 1D when you get that too.

Matt

Why not just select all 45 points? And maybe open up your dof a little. You are shooting during the day right? I think we'd all like to see an example of your work to get an idea. I'm having trouble understanding a situation where Canon's crazy-fast AF won't help you.

Matt

Dennis S said:

Dennis Stiff

stripes said:

Member said:

It goes like this. When the rafts break through the wave, thing's start to happen.

Click to expand...

Are you on the shore with the camera on a tripod, or in another
raft? If you aren't using a tripod, Canon's IS may help a lot with
sharpness (or only some if you are using Nikon's one VR lens, which
is quite possable since it may be a fine length for this)

Member said:

If the guide goes up in the air (which is always unpredictable, such as how high) I have to view the entire frame and pick a focus point somewhere [...] Without a cord from my brain to the autofocus control in the camera I need to manually pick a compromise point in a very short period of time and also set up for the next shot(s) in the sequence. Whole frame focus rather than point focus is something I taught myself years ago. The funny thing is, I have to look for smilling faces and no paddles blocking the face and lots of water splash before I can punch the button...it's fun. Like I said earlier, Canon's retina control loses it's mind as my eye moves all over the frame.

Click to expand...

Canon doesn't have eye control focus in any of their digitals
anyway. However it has pretty fast selection over the 45 point AF
"ellipse" with the two dials, that may work out for you. Failing
that, manual focus, or manual touch up from the auto focus is about
all there is.

P.S. you said something about "one touch focus", what is that? Is
it anything like the focus pre-sets on some of the Canon lenses
(you can set, i think, two focus positions, and get them by
twisting the quick focus ring left or right, then touch up the
focus manually)?

Canon does have some nice stuff, but they don't have all the nice
stuff. It may just plain be that Nikon works better for this, or
at least better with people with your style of shooting.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Matt

If I activate all 45 points how do I tell the camera which one I want. You have to imagine a rectanle shaped box full of people coming at you at speed and hitting a wall of water (the wave in the rapid) and then turning to an oblique angle to your position. People fall out, guides sometimes get ejected into the stratosphere. I need to keep the whole scene in some sort of acceptable focus plus have the ability to pick a point that I may want to emphasize and like I said, I usually have a second or more to get my 5 or more shot sequence in before they are past me. The F100 had a "closest focus point" option but what if I want to slide toward the back and then in the next shot move up again. I'm asking people questions. If the 45 point focus or whatever focus system Nikon uses can move at my will with out taking my eye or concentration off of the action let me know. I asked Nikon for an F5 to test when they first came out. They told me all the F5's were at the Atlanta Olympics but that this camera would certainly do the job. I, of course knew better. I did get an F5 for professional reasons but it quickly became an expensive 8 fps manual focus camera (unless I was shooting near infinity). I need at least a 500th shutter speed and the aperture is between 5.6 and 8 (with 100 ISO slide film). The D1, I shoot at ISO 200 so I can stop down to F8. I also shoot tight (right on top of the action) and I am working the zoom pretty hard to get the guides head and the bow of the raft in the frame. That's how it goes ( at least for the last 18 years using manual and autofocus Nikons and Canon. I 've never use the ESO 1v but I know it isn't a mind reader. If the Canon performs miracles I'm interested. I can manual focus faster than any autofocus or should I say I'm always 100% on. But I'm looking for something new and better and I've always admired what Canon has done for the most part. My lenses right now are beat up and I had to shake the loose elements into focus many times this year before I could punch the shutter button. I have 4 Nikkor 80-200 2.8 D one touch non-AFS lenses that need to be fixed, plus the camera's also. I'm looking at a big repair bill here. When I shoot film, I had to go all the way back to my F2's as things broke down from the constant pounding. I shoot up to 100 rolls of 36 in the space of an hour plus on a Saturday and near the same on Sunday and average about 20 to 30 rolls a day during the week (I usually work 7 days a week for 6 months out of the year for the last 18 years) With the D1, I can use Microdives but I need two (D1's) because that 21 shot buffer fills up fast. I tried Canons Retina control unit some years ago and my eye movement made the focus unstable. Pretend the whole frame is your focus point and you need to settle on a finite part of that quickly muliple times during a sequence. Go to a river with a class three rapid and get tight on the raft and shoot a 5 or10 shot sequence. I'm an addict for this type of action and I'm good at it...but always looking to get better.

Dennis Stiff

Matt said:

Matt

Dennis S said:

Stripes
The one touch I'm refering to is a zoom that has one collar for
focus and zooming, thus allowing me to follow the action on the
rafts as they move toward me and also keep focus. A two touch has a
ring for each step. The 45 points of focus don't help either...the
camera or the shooter can't plan ahead or change points on the
fly...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

One thing people see to fortget other then the fact that there is only one VR lens in Nikon v. many for Canon is that Nikon VR doesn't allow for AF-S "silent wave" focusing. Meanwhile alll canon lenses are USM and IS.

It probably follow that we will see more Nikon VR lenses in the future but none of them will be AF-S

drew

Drew said:

One thing people see to fortget other then the fact that there is
only one VR lens in Nikon v. many for Canon is that Nikon VR
doesn't allow for AF-S "silent wave" focusing. Meanwhile alll canon
lenses are USM and IS.

It probably follow that we will see more Nikon VR lenses in the
future but none of them will be AF-S

Click to expand...

Where did that start? I've heard people saying that VR and AF-S can't be implemented on the same lens - has this come from any practical/official source or is this just heresay? Is it just because the current VR lens didn't integrate an AFS motor? Just wondering, as I have yet to hear any evidence that there is some technical limitation (if I'm wrong please correct me)

The 80-400 is not the type of lens that Nikon traditionally chooses to put AFS motors in anyway. Currently, the only lenses to integrate the silentwave motors are their fast f2.8 lenses designed for action photography. The 80-400 is a slow f4.5-5.6 lens aimed at different markets, so I wasn't all that suprised when it didn't integrate the AFS function. If I were interested in the lens, yeah I'd rather have seen a SW motor - but remember that that would have increased the price of the lens and made it out of reach for many who currently use the lens.

Either way, indeed Nikon's lack of VR in more lenses is indeed a minus - however I don't see it as a huge lacking. Sure I can see how VR/IS would be helpful - however I can't think of any circumstance where it would be invaluable. Tripods and monopods will for the most part do a better job, and with proper discipline handholding and panning are not really a problem for a seasoned pro or experienced ammeteur. Of course, given the choice I'd like it in a lens - but it is far from a necessity.

Oh well, just my opinion

Drew

Canon definitley has the edge in a lot of areas which explains why they are all over the place. I have used Nikon since 1975 and still do...but I always had my eye on Canon's inovations and often wondered why Nikon was always asleep. The thing is Nikons are pretty good anyway and with the D1 brought the entire photography community into the Pro Digital Age at a less than $10k per camera price (Kodak). Canon is here now so the D-30 (which though slow gave a good picture with their CMOS imager) can get a rest as a back up and give those starving Canon shooters a chance to show their stuff again. The image from the D1x is so good I think alot of Nikon people could care less about IS or VR right now. The new Canon should have been a 6MP but I think they were under pressure from Nikons 2nd gen D1 series and needed something out there. It doesn't matter, the EOS 1D looks good to me (although it is a lot like the Canon/kodak hybrid earlier).

Dennis Stiff

Drew said:

One thing people see to fortget other then the fact that there is
only one VR lens in Nikon v. many for Canon is that Nikon VR
doesn't allow for AF-S "silent wave" focusing. Meanwhile alll canon
lenses are USM and IS.

It probably follow that we will see more Nikon VR lenses in the
future but none of them will be AF-S

drew

Click to expand...

There is an article in the Sept Popular Photography comparing the Canon IS and Nikon VR technology. Granted there are more Canon lenses but according to the testing in the articles, both had there plus and minuses in head on testing. Take a look at the article if you are interested. mark

Thomas Sapiano said:

Drew said:

One thing people see to fortget other then the fact that there is
only one VR lens in Nikon v. many for Canon is that Nikon VR
doesn't allow for AF-S "silent wave" focusing. Meanwhile alll canon
lenses are USM and IS.

It probably follow that we will see more Nikon VR lenses in the
future but none of them will be AF-S

Click to expand...

Where did that start? I've heard people saying that VR and AF-S
can't be implemented on the same lens - has this come from any
practical/official source or is this just heresay? Is it just
because the current VR lens didn't integrate an AFS motor? Just
wondering, as I have yet to hear any evidence that there is some
technical limitation (if I'm wrong please correct me)

The 80-400 is not the type of lens that Nikon traditionally chooses
to put AFS motors in anyway. Currently, the only lenses to
integrate the silentwave motors are their fast f2.8 lenses designed
for action photography. The 80-400 is a slow f4.5-5.6 lens aimed
at different markets, so I wasn't all that suprised when it didn't
integrate the AFS function. If I were interested in the lens, yeah
I'd rather have seen a SW motor - but remember that that would have
increased the price of the lens and made it out of reach for many
who currently use the lens.

Either way, indeed Nikon's lack of VR in more lenses is indeed a
minus - however I don't see it as a huge lacking. Sure I can see
how VR/IS would be helpful - however I can't think of any
circumstance where it would be invaluable. Tripods and monopods
will for the most part do a better job, and with proper discipline
handholding and panning are not really a problem for a seasoned pro
or experienced ammeteur. Of course, given the choice I'd like it
in a lens - but it is far from a necessity.

Oh well, just my opinion

Click to expand...

I think both Nikon and Canon are excellent camera systems. They lead in different areas. Why are we attacking each other? There was Canon people who even fabricated the specification of EOS 1D (e.g. 6+MP CMOS sensor) to discourage people from jumping boat to use D1X several months ago. That is ridiculous. There is so much photography left besides camera gears. Don't split hairs. Good equipment does not guarantee good pictures. Let us be honest and keep these forums truthful, helpful and informative. Please don't waste time to bash people who are not using the same brand as yours. Different photographer has different needs. Use whatever works for you.

Mark said:

NPS- will not allow college students
CPS- does, which is great when you are young and don't have 8-10
grand for a 400 2.8 and your on the road to cover a football game.

I recently switched from Nikon to Canon. I do have to say that the
user interface is a lot different but the autofocus is definitely
faste. And anyone who says that an F5 is tougher than a 1v is
kidding themselves. Not to mention the fact that the lenses are far
more weather resistant. I know several shooters who don't even
cover thier Canon equipment when it's pouring rain at a football
game. ( Not a good move in my opinion but then again they don't
seem to have any problems with their gear.)

It just seems to me that Canon is always one step ahead and that by
the time that Nikon catches up their stuff is 500 bucks more
expensive and no better than the Canon gear.

Anyway great thread.

Click to expand...

Nikon vs. Canon, film vs. digital, PC vs. Mac, Ford vs. Chevy, Godzilla vs. Bambi, blah, blah, blah.....

Get whichever system you think makes sense for you, and GO SHOOT!! They're both world-class. Don't spend so much time worrying about whether you made (or are making) the wrong choice.

Remember, cameras and lenses don't make photographs, photographers do! T

AMEN AMEN AMEN
go Canon.. er.. wait I mean Nikon oh I dont even care.