Very disturbing "image" of Afghanistan

I listen to the NJ talk radio station, 101.5. A young man just called in and related his experience in Afghanistan while working with the Peace Corps. Afghanistan was their "last stop" and they were there to help feed people, build homes, etc. He said being with the Peace Corps he always looked for the "good" in people, but that in this place, there wasn't any. The hatred for Americans is everywhere. He related stories of women being executed in soccer fields while children not only watched, but got "involved" with it, crowds cheering, etc. He had a 10-year-old child point a gun at him. Many children walk around with weopons and guns. He said what "finished" it for him was having a nun that they were working with get raped by over 15 men, because she had a Cross showing out of her pocket. He said there was nothing anyone could do but stand there. He now feels the entire country should be wiped off the map, because as he put it, "there is just no GOOD there at all, only evil."

Last week I saw excerpts (on CNN) of the 2 hour promotional
video that Bin Laden's organization uses to recruit followers to
their cause. The excerpts contain scenes of children as young
as 10 years old in training with rifles, and being taught to die for
their cause.

koo22,

I agree.

I think when we weigh the good vs. evil, afghanistan needs to be wiped off the geographic map. Pakistan and Iraq should be next. We need to start polarizing ourselves, instead of walking the fine line. Either you are for freedom, choice, and expression of men AND women, or you die.

Jason Busch

I also saw an interview on TV of another young man who was asked if he would blow up a schoolbus full of kindergarten age children. He didn't even hesitate...he said "yes, if that's what I was ordered to do". As far as the Afghan children, they will only grow up to take their fathers' place. There was a school full of young boys also on the interview. They have "Osama" screen savers on their computers. They all said if he (Osama) was killed, there would be "ten or twenty more of us" to take his place. And they smiled when they said it. K.

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

I agree.
I think when we weigh the good vs. evil, afghanistan needs to be
wiped off the geographic map. Pakistan and Iraq should be next. We
need to start polarizing ourselves, instead of walking the fine
line. Either you are for freedom, choice, and expression of men AND
women, or you die.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

koo22,

That is a sad and a scary vision. I should mention that there are civlians who are actually for the United States, but it's getting to the point where they need to fight for their freedom, instead relying on the United States to hand it to them on a platter. My question is for these reporters who are over there telling us that there is wide support for US action in certain areas of cities, "Why don't the people get together and help us out?" Only the Northern Alliance has got together as a group and is fighting back. I don't want to see a lot of innocent life be killed, but I ask myself every day, "How innocent can you be if you just stay where you are and don't fight back?" I think there is also a lot of two-faced behavior. We go over there and feed them and give them shelter, and what do you know, a few years later they are shouting anti-US sentiments again. I am losing my tolerance for these "villagers" and "innocent civilians". It reminds of people who are accused of a crime and who don't protest and refuse to testify. If I was innocent of a crime, I would kick and scream and do whatever I could to be cleared. The same should apply to this scenario. If we have villagers who want freedom and want to live in harmony with the rest of world, they have to show an effort to want to do this. All I see is submissive behavior and no demonstration that they want to fight the Taliban.

Jason Busch

Remember that when the Taliban supposedly took power they confiscated all the weapons from their civilians (sound familiar). I'm not for wiping them off the face of the Earth as some have proposed. But I certainly think providing the necessary support for them to try another form of government (of their choice) is certainly a priority. Changing the government may be the first step towards changing young and older minds.

Trent

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

That is a sad and a scary vision. I should mention that there are
civlians who are actually for the United States, but it's getting
to the point where they need to fight for their freedom, instead
relying on the United States to hand it to them on a platter. My
question is for these reporters who are over there telling us that
there is wide support for US action in certain areas of cities,
"Why don't the people get together and help us out?" Only the
Northern Alliance has got together as a group and is fighting back.
I don't want to see a lot of innocent life be killed, but I ask
myself every day, "How innocent can you be if you just stay where
you are and don't fight back?" I think there is also a lot of
two-faced behavior. We go over there and feed them and give them
shelter, and what do you know, a few years later they are shouting
anti-US sentiments again. I am losing my tolerance for these
"villagers" and "innocent civilians". It reminds of people who are
accused of a crime and who don't protest and refuse to testify. If
I was innocent of a crime, I would kick and scream and do whatever
I could to be cleared. The same should apply to this scenario. If
we have villagers who want freedom and want to live in harmony with
the rest of world, they have to show an effort to want to do this.
All I see is submissive behavior and no demonstration that they
want to fight the Taliban.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

It's disturbing, but not surprising to see otherwise decent people try to dehumanize any group of human beings. It happens in every time fear and ignorance supplant reason.

It may salve your conscience to believe that Afghanis are somehow innately evil, but the source of such rationalization is just as evil. History has proven so time after time.

It's also easy to sit safely behind your monitor and suggest that someone else should fight for your cause.

Fortunately, for every sideline warmonger, there are more thoughtful folks who understand that the real world can't be bombed into perfection.

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

That is a sad and a scary vision. I should mention that there are
civlians who are actually for the United States, but it's getting
to the point where they need to fight for their freedom, instead
relying on the United States to hand it to them on a platter. My
question is for these reporters who are over there telling us that
there is wide support for US action in certain areas of cities,
"Why don't the people get together and help us out?" Only the
Northern Alliance has got together as a group and is fighting back.
I don't want to see a lot of innocent life be killed, but I ask
myself every day, "How innocent can you be if you just stay where
you are and don't fight back?" I think there is also a lot of
two-faced behavior. We go over there and feed them and give them
shelter, and what do you know, a few years later they are shouting
anti-US sentiments again. I am losing my tolerance for these
"villagers" and "innocent civilians". It reminds of people who are
accused of a crime and who don't protest and refuse to testify. If
I was innocent of a crime, I would kick and scream and do whatever
I could to be cleared. The same should apply to this scenario. If
we have villagers who want freedom and want to live in harmony with
the rest of world, they have to show an effort to want to do this.
All I see is submissive behavior and no demonstration that they
want to fight the Taliban.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

I drove from Tehran to Kabul during Ramadan in 1976. I found the Afghanis to be a handsome and friendly people, concerned mostly with their herds, shops or crops. The people far out in the country certainly had guns but this was a rugged, arid, semi wilderness and the guns were just tools. Tne Taliban may have changed these people for the worse but blame the Taliban not the Afghanis.

Regards, EJS

BJN,

What's your solution?

All I hear is peace this and peace that, and I don't hear an alternative. Every nation and people have their own shameful history, but right now, I am concerned with current events. We can point fingers at each other day and night, but it will not solve what is going on now. My solution is taking out the terrorists, which will unfortunately kill civilians along with them. Freedom is not free, it takes innocent lives (as we have seen) and it must be fought for, and from what I hear, a few people are not willing to defend it.

Jason Busch

EJS,

When innocent villagers are killed by our Coalition of Nations, yes, I will blame the Taliban.

Jason Busch

BJN said:

It's disturbing, but not surprising to see otherwise decent people
try to dehumanize any group of human beings.

Click to expand...

Do you mean like when the Taliban characterize Americans as Devils?

BJN said:

It happens in every time fear and ignorance supplant reason.

Click to expand...

As runs rampant in the Taliban regime?

BJN said:

It may salve your conscience to believe that Afghanis are somehow
innately evil, but the source of such rationalization is just as
evil. History has proven so time after time.

Click to expand...

It's the Taliban, stupid.

BJN said:

It's also easy to sit safely behind your monitor and suggest that
someone else should fight for your cause.

Click to expand...

We must all be prepared to make sacrifices and fight for our
freedoms when that is what is required. The freedoms we have
enjoyed for so long were not "free". They were paid for in blood.

BJN said:

Fortunately, for every sideline warmonger, there are more
thoughtful folks who understand that the real world can't be bombed
into perfection.

Click to expand...

It's too bad that some thoughtful individuals in the Taliban or
Bin Laden's group didn't take action to stop the mass murder of
innocent Americans (and others) before it happened.

Jason, now tell all of us....can you and your ideas, we're already taking into consideration you have been honorably mentioned as the "brains of america and armchair general," put an end to the earth's woe's once and for all time?

Jason Busch said:

BJN,

What's your solution?

All I hear is peace this and peace that, and I don't hear an
alternative. Every nation and people have their own shameful
history, but right now, I am concerned with current events. We can
point fingers at each other day and night, but it will not solve
what is going on now. My solution is taking out the terrorists,
which will unfortunately kill civilians along with them. Freedom is
not free, it takes innocent lives (as we have seen) and it must be
fought for, and from what I hear, a few people are not willing to
defend it.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

koo22 said:

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

I agree.
I think when we weigh the good vs. evil, afghanistan needs to be
wiped off the geographic map. Pakistan and Iraq should be next. We
need to start polarizing ourselves, instead of walking the fine
line. Either you are for freedom, choice, and expression of men AND
women, or you die.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi Koo22,

This is why we need to capture Osama Bin Laden. This way we can
publicly execute him in such a horrific fashion, that these kids will
see how we will deal with terrorist. Maybe it will scare them into
thinking differently. But, then again, they are probably so brainwashed
that it wouldn't make a difference. Maybe our Marines will smack that
smile off their face when we get there.

Bob Graham

Snake,

Your flattery is surpassed by your sarcasm.

Jason Busch

Jason, you are an idiot. The reasons for describing you in this way are self-evident upon review of your post. I see no distinction between your irrational thoughts about the peoples of these three countries and those of Bin Laden or the Taliban regarding the U.S.

One of my college friends was born in Iran but lived in the U.S. for most of his life and is a U.S. citizen. He commented that Iranians and most others in the Middle East consider Afgans to be barbarians, hardly advanced beyond the stone age in either their standard of living, or in their intellectual development. This was a pre-1979 opinion, when the country was still relatively prosperous compared to after the Soviet invasion. However, I have known several Afgan-Americans who were reasonable people. I am really loath to treat any group of peoples based on a stereotype.

The problem here is that we have a desparate economic situation and near-universal severe poverty. Under those conditions, people become willing to listen to propaganda and take extremist views, e.g. Germany during the 1930's. The U.S. has simply become a scapegoat for a lot of miserable, uneducated, malnourished people who have nothing left in their lives but willingness to blame and hate someone else.

What's the solution? Probably none of us on this forum are qualified to answer, based on our lack of intelligence reports on the specific situation in Afganistan. Widespread bombing of the country will not work, as the Soviets discovered. It will lead to lessening support from those countries that have allied themselves to our cause. It won't take too many photos of Afgan children mangled and mutilated from American bombing attacks to lose the support of Pakistan and Middle Eastern countries, as well as other countries around the world. Probably the best strategy is to bide our time until we can make surgical strikes against Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda organization, attacking with limited precision bombing and localized land campaigns using paratroopers. There are no easy solutions but I would rather wait an extra year or two than rush into action, unnecessarily kill innocent people and suffer substantial loss of good will internationally.

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

I agree.
I think when we weigh the good vs. evil, afghanistan needs to be
wiped off the geographic map. Pakistan and Iraq should be next. We
need to start polarizing ourselves, instead of walking the fine
line. Either you are for freedom, choice, and expression of men AND
women, or you die.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

Stan wrote:
There are no easy

Stanwick said:

solutions but I would rather wait an extra year or two than rush
into action, unnecessarily kill innocent people and suffer
substantial loss of good will internationally.

Click to expand...

I just hope an "extra year or two" doesn't mean that more of US will be maimed or killed on our own land. I feel like we're all waiting for the other shoe to fall. K.

Stanwick said:

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

I agree.
I think when we weigh the good vs. evil, afghanistan needs to be
wiped off the geographic map. Pakistan and Iraq should be next. We
need to start polarizing ourselves, instead of walking the fine
line. Either you are for freedom, choice, and expression of men AND
women, or you die.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The Anti-western sentiment I can handle, I often understand their anger based on the last 50 years of history.

But the brutality of the population, women in particular, I cannot.

koo22 said:

I listen to the NJ talk radio station, 101.5. A young man just
called in and related his experience in Afghanistan while working
with the Peace Corps. Afghanistan was their "last stop" and they
were there to help feed people, build homes, etc. He said being
with the Peace Corps he always looked for the "good" in people, but
that in this place, there wasn't any. The hatred for Americans is
everywhere. He related stories of women being executed in soccer
fields while children not only watched, but got "involved" with it,
crowds cheering, etc. He had a 10-year-old child point a gun at
him. Many children walk around with weopons and guns. He said
what "finished" it for him was having a nun that they were working
with get raped by over 15 men, because she had a Cross showing out
of her pocket. He said there was nothing anyone could do but stand
there. He now feels the entire country should be wiped off the
map, because as he put it, "there is just no GOOD there at all,
only evil."

Click to expand...

I mean the brutality AGAINST the population, against women in particular.

darren said:

But the brutality of the population, women in particular, I cannot.

koo22 said:

I listen to the NJ talk radio station, 101.5. A young man just
called in and related his experience in Afghanistan while working
with the Peace Corps. Afghanistan was their "last stop" and they
were there to help feed people, build homes, etc. He said being
with the Peace Corps he always looked for the "good" in people, but
that in this place, there wasn't any. The hatred for Americans is
everywhere. He related stories of women being executed in soccer
fields while children not only watched, but got "involved" with it,
crowds cheering, etc. He had a 10-year-old child point a gun at
him. Many children walk around with weopons and guns. He said
what "finished" it for him was having a nun that they were working
with get raped by over 15 men, because she had a Cross showing out
of her pocket. He said there was nothing anyone could do but stand
there. He now feels the entire country should be wiped off the
map, because as he put it, "there is just no GOOD there at all,
only evil."

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

A welcome dose of rational thought! Thank you!
-darren

BJN said:

It may salve your conscience to believe that Afghanis are somehow
innately evil, but the source of such rationalization is just as
evil. History has proven so time after time.

It's also easy to sit safely behind your monitor and suggest that
someone else should fight for your cause.

Fortunately, for every sideline warmonger, there are more
thoughtful folks who understand that the real world can't be bombed
into perfection.

Jason Busch said:

koo22,

That is a sad and a scary vision. I should mention that there are
civlians who are actually for the United States, but it's getting
to the point where they need to fight for their freedom, instead
relying on the United States to hand it to them on a platter. My
question is for these reporters who are over there telling us that
there is wide support for US action in certain areas of cities,
"Why don't the people get together and help us out?" Only the
Northern Alliance has got together as a group and is fighting back.
I don't want to see a lot of innocent life be killed, but I ask
myself every day, "How innocent can you be if you just stay where
you are and don't fight back?" I think there is also a lot of
two-faced behavior. We go over there and feed them and give them
shelter, and what do you know, a few years later they are shouting
anti-US sentiments again. I am losing my tolerance for these
"villagers" and "innocent civilians". It reminds of people who are
accused of a crime and who don't protest and refuse to testify. If
I was innocent of a crime, I would kick and scream and do whatever
I could to be cleared. The same should apply to this scenario. If
we have villagers who want freedom and want to live in harmony with
the rest of world, they have to show an effort to want to do this.
All I see is submissive behavior and no demonstration that they
want to fight the Taliban.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

So you advocate killing innocent farmers and merchants who are completely innocent of any wrongdoing, just because American blood was shed? You're dangerous. This thinking is why the US is hated in many countries that were forming democratic governments crushed by US-sponsored military action.

Dave Schambach said:

BJN said:

It's disturbing, but not surprising to see otherwise decent people
try to dehumanize any group of human beings.

Click to expand...

Do you mean like when the Taliban characterize Americans as Devils?

Member said:

It happens in every time fear and ignorance supplant reason.

Click to expand...

As runs rampant in the Taliban regime?

Member said:

It may salve your conscience to believe that Afghanis are somehow
innately evil, but the source of such rationalization is just as
evil. History has proven so time after time.

Click to expand...

It's the Taliban, stupid.

Member said:

It's also easy to sit safely behind your monitor and suggest that
someone else should fight for your cause.

Click to expand...

We must all be prepared to make sacrifices and fight for our
freedoms when that is what is required. The freedoms we have
enjoyed for so long were not "free". They were paid for in blood.

Member said:

Fortunately, for every sideline warmonger, there are more
thoughtful folks who understand that the real world can't be bombed
into perfection.

Click to expand...

It's too bad that some thoughtful individuals in the Taliban or
Bin Laden's group didn't take action to stop the mass murder of
innocent Americans (and others) before it happened.

Click to expand...