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Aperture's Color Space

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Robin Casady

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I asked a friend at Apple about the color space settings in Aperture, and the lack of a Curves adjustment. Here is what he said:

"Aperture's working color space is HDR — an RGB space that provides for the widest possible gamut in rendering images. This working space is fixed. However, once you're in the app, you have the option of proofing against any other color space, such as Pro Photo RGB or Adobe RGB, by defining a profile for soft proofing. You can then preview the results of this on screen. When printing or exporting images to another format, you can also define an output color profile for the correct color conversions."

"While Aperture doesn't have a Curves adjustment, it does include the ability to define and adjust quarter-tones in the Levels adjustments, on a channel by channel basis. This allows you to easily define an S-curve for any channel, and corresponds to the adjustment that most people make using Curves in Photoshop. In essence, we've combined the functionality of Curves and Levels into a single set of controls within the Levels histogram. Of course, for functionality that goes beyond this, you have the option of sending the image to Photoshop."

I thought some might find this interesting.

Robin
http://www.robincasady.com
 
Robin Casady said:
"Aperture's working color space is HDR — an RGB space that provides
for the widest possible gamut in rendering images. This working
space is fixed. However, once you're in the app, you have the
option of proofing against any other color space, such as Pro Photo
RGB or Adobe RGB, by defining a profile for soft proofing. You can
then preview the results of this on screen. When printing or
exporting images to another format, you can also define an output
color profile for the correct color conversions."
Click to expand...
My thought here is that while this is theoretically good, and offers the greatest flexibility--the reality is that some types of photography or some jobs simply aren't ever going to change spaces. For example, at my workplace I have to use AdobeRGB. So using some other space and then converting is, if anything, a hassle in that I have to make sure I'm not correcting out of the space I'm headed to. Do I just leave the soft-proof option on al the time? Can I do that?
Robin Casady said:
"While Aperture doesn't have a Curves adjustment, it does include
the ability to define and adjust quarter-tones in the Levels
adjustments, on a channel by channel basis. This allows you to
easily define an S-curve for any channel, and corresponds to the
adjustment that most people make using Curves in Photoshop. In
essence, we've combined the functionality of Curves and Levels into
a single set of controls within the Levels histogram.
Click to expand...
IMO, curves already is the combination of both, just with a lot more control. The one thing I do like is the idea of the histogram. That's got to be my favorite part of Nikon Capture--the live histo behind the curves. (Why can't ACR do this?!) For that matter, why can't that make that an option to turn on or turn off the a histo behind the curves grid in Photoshop? Yes there's the histo palette, but it would be nice to not have to look two places on the screen.

Getting back to the point, the thing I like about curves is not only the precision, but the speed of the precision. Click and you've got a point. Not just at quartone or midetone, etc. You've got a point wherever you want it--or wherever the data is by clicking on the image. I just don't see levels being near that powerful. Of course, I haven't had a chance to try Aperature's rendition of levels, so I'll have to see how well it actually works.
Robin Casady said:
I thought some might find this interesting.
Click to expand...
It is. Thanks for posting it. This could be a very interesting App. I'm not sure if Apple is going to sell very many (of their very expensive) machines based soley on the desire for one application, but I guess that depends on how good it is. Certainly it can help solidify the base of current customers!
 
Seth Resnick has voiced concerns about this color space issue as well.

unfortunately, this just smacks of typical Apple thinking, ala the "we know whats good for you" kind of thing. I dont care if HDR is better than sliced bread, but I think I'd like to pick MY OWN working color space, thank you very much. but this why people just like Apple in the 1st place, they like letting Apple streamlining decisions for them, when they're actually good decisions, then its easier for us. but remember, if HDR somehow screws up your colors and or clips anything, then converting to ProPhoto or whatever is irrelevant after the fact. If its my darn computer, I like to make these decisions darn it.

can somebody now tell us more about this HDR space, and what exactly it is? is it actually wider than ProPhoto?
 
very interesting, thanks for the info. IF HDR is wider than prophoto, I'll be quite content. I use prophoto as my working space in ACR for the widest option as it stands. As to curves, I'd still prefer the option for just the reasons cited in a prior post but quarter tone levels should do pretty well. I can't wait for this program.....Peter
--
http://www.innerimager.com
 
rjbc said:
but I think I'd like to pick MY OWN
working color space, thank you very much.
Click to expand...
Really? Why?

One of the most constant troubleshooting things I have to do with people both new and old in digital is step through all the potential landmines that Color Spaces present. And editing in, say, sRGB, is definitely generating potential color ramp issues. Since Aperture allows you to proof and output whatever you want (and can pass to Photoshop), and it's likely to appeal mostly to someone shooting RAW (which has NO Color Space of its own) I just don't see the problem. Frankly, it simplifies something most people--even many that claim color management knowledge--just don't fully understand.
rjbc said:
but this why people just
like Apple in the 1st place, they like letting Apple streamlining
decisions for them, when they're actually good decisions, then its
easier for us.
Click to expand...
Spoken like a true Windows user. You bet Apple simplified things (like having built-in color management from the get-go with the first color Mac, the Mac II). I don't know of many graphics arts professionals who felt like they have been held back by simplifications. For most true professionals, time is money, and the only two considerations are quality of the output and the time necessary to generate it.
rjbc said:
but remember, if HDR somehow screws up your colors
and or clips anything, then converting to ProPhoto or whatever is
irrelevant after the fact.
Click to expand...
We could also write "if AdobeRGB screws up your colors and or clips anything, then converting to sRGB is irrelevant after the fact." I don't see the logic, sorry.
rjbc said:
If its my darn computer, I like to make
these decisions darn it.
Click to expand...
Fine. Stick with Photoshop. Apple isn't FORCING you to use Aperture, after all.
rjbc said:
can somebody now tell us more about this HDR space, and what
exactly it is? is it actually wider than ProPhoto?
Click to expand...
Supposedly. Personally, since we're likely to take raw images into Aperture and these have no real color space (and often have colors that can exceed AdobeRGB's space), my only real concern with what Apple has chosen to do comes at the proofing/output stage. Well, okay, I have a second: I suspect that the 2GB RAM requirement intersects this decision (though I never bet against the cost of more memory versus software), and I wonder what kind of performance we'll see on the current Powerbooks, which don't have dual cores.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D70, D100, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
Hi Peter!

I wouldnt say this is good at all! for starters using too wide a gaumont such as superpro etc is not at all recomended, contrary it can totally ruin files.

Commercial-printers got a nightmare with this. The wider the better is a falsity!

HDR well what the heck! is that supposed to mean? that Apple as always is not asking BUT telling uss what to use. STUPID!!

regards Fred
 
please name me a single good raw converter that allows you to choose your working color space...
--
Julia
 
Jim Keye said:
My thought here is that while this is theoretically good, and
offers the greatest flexibility--the reality is that some types of
photography or some jobs simply aren't ever going to change spaces.
For example, at my workplace I have to use AdobeRGB. So using some
other space and then converting is, if anything, a hassle in that I
have to make sure I'm not correcting out of the space I'm headed
to. Do I just leave the soft-proof option on al the time? Can I do
that?
Click to expand...
My impression is that it is consistent with the non-destructive nature of the way Aperture's file handling. It is sort of like not having a color space defined, so you can change it on the fly without altering the original. I would guess that you would leave the soft-proofing on.

If your clients later realize that ProPhotoRGB is a better option, you will be able to easily set your output to that space, rather than having to upconvert old images from AdobeRGB to ProPhotoRGB.
Jim Keye said:
Getting back to the point, the thing I like about curves is not
only the precision, but the speed of the precision. Click and
you've got a point. Not just at quartone or midetone, etc. You've
got a point wherever you want it--or wherever the data is by
clicking on the image. I just don't see levels being near that
powerful. Of course, I haven't had a chance to try Aperature's
rendition of levels, so I'll have to see how well it actually works.
Click to expand...
I am skeptical about this enhanced levels feature. I'd probably prefer curves, but yes, we'll have to see.
Jim Keye said:
It is. Thanks for posting it. This could be a very interesting App.
I'm not sure if Apple is going to sell very many (of their very
expensive) machines based soley on the desire for one application,
but I guess that depends on how good it is. Certainly it can help
solidify the base of current customers!
Click to expand...
I expect there are a lot Mac users who will be nudged into ugrading sooner than they had planned, just to get Aperture. Comments on this forum and on Mac Tools indicate that is the case. I expect Aperture cold induce me to upgrade sooner than I planned. There may also be a few PC users who were considering moving to Mac and just needed a nudge. Whatever, I think Aperture strengthens Apple's market position somewhat, and raises the interface standard for other companies catering to photographers, like Adobe and Bibble. All in all, it should be a good thing for photographers, directly or indirectly.

Robin
http://www.robincasady.com
 
frederic fahraeus said:
Hi Peter!

I wouldnt say this is good at all! for starters using too wide a
gaumont such as superpro etc is not at all recomended, contrary it
can totally ruin files.
Commercial-printers got a nightmare with this. The wider the better
is a falsity!
HDR well what the heck! is that supposed to mean? that Apple as
always is not asking BUT telling uss what to use. STUPID!!

regards Fred
Click to expand...
As Thom said, no one is FORCING YOU to buy the software, so why are you so upset?...

Secondly, you're missing the point of having HDR. It's NOT about the printing It IS about non-destructive editing. For that, you need to maintain the widest range possible, hence HDR. Think of it as a "raw" color space. Preserve as much info as possible. Then downsample to whatever color space and size you need.

I'm sure Micro$oft will have an image editor out for you soon. Please enjoy.
 
Peter said:
very interesting, thanks for the info. IF HDR is wider than
prophoto, I'll be quite content. I use prophoto as my working space
in ACR for the widest option as it stands. As to curves, I'd still
prefer the option for just the reasons cited in a prior post but
quarter tone levels should do pretty well. I can't wait for this
program.....Peter
--
http://www.innerimager.com
Click to expand...
And to see how good the raw processing is. That's the real test.
 
How about calling it HDR! but it truly means NO colour space!!
you can choose after the fact if I read you correctly.

Sounds like Adobe RAW is doing the same thing here but it lets you choose in advance.
Without having the option of no colourspace.

Or are we going to be able to import an HDR image into photoshop which on its turn understands this colourspace. Probably not, so most likely we'll end up converting anyhow.

If HDR is real and interchangable I will probably prefer using that over ProPhotoRGB..
 
But if I am correct Dynamic range has to do with the amount of bits in the image not the colourspace.

So it would be a strange name for a colourspace they should have called it ApertureRGB :)
 
frederic fahraeus said:
Hi Peter!

I wouldnt say this is good at all! for starters using too wide a
gaumont such as superpro etc is not at all recomended, contrary it
can totally ruin files.
Commercial-printers got a nightmare with this. The wider the better
is a falsity!
Click to expand...
Hi Fred- There's a difference between what space you process in and what you print in. We want the processing space to not clip colors when we process, and a wide space should not cause any problems but only keep all data. Then for printing, it is critical to change, for many like Frontiers to sRGB. But with the ever widening ink jets that can display larger gamuts, it can help to have a very wide embedded color space.

However, even as a "lifelong" Mac guy, (starting with the very first) I have to kind of agree with the sentiment that apple tends to make our decisions for us. Why not allow us to select HDR vs prophoto, etc. like ACR does? While we're at it, I understand you can't assign your own custom profile which will be a drawback for some.

Best....Peter

--
http://www.innerimager.com
 
Peter said:
Why not allow us to select HDR vs
prophoto, etc. like ACR does?
Click to expand...
ACR does not allow that. In ACR you can choose only output color space, which is soft-proof on the monitor and used to calculate hictogram while you work in ACR. Working space in ACR is always kind of ProPhoto gamma =1 space. Apple is just explicit here, not hiding what is going behind the scene.

Another question: why you presume that HDR space has the same physical meaning as ProPhoto?

--
Julia
 
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