On stage, low light, people walking, need help!

Hello,

My work has a 20d with a 17-85 lens. I take pictures with it, but don't quite have the whole relationship between aperture, shutter speed, iso down yet... still learning.

I have to take pictures at a big awards ceremony. I will be up on stage, and the winners will walk to accept their award. The lighting will be funky and uneven, most likely a combination of spotlight, colored lights, and a huge projection screen.

I have to crouch down to take the shots, and of course no tripod.

Here are my thoughts:

• Fast shutter to catch people as they walk?
• Only have the defalt flash, but should use this to freeze the people? (how to force flash with manual settings?
• Need a higher ISO to compensate for the fast shutter?
• Need an f stop of about 4 (low as it goes?)

I have scoured the posts on here, and have gotten some info, but needed to post since this is a huge deal and I don't want to screw it up

thanks!
Matt

Matt Snow said:

Hello,
My work has a 20d with a 17-85 lens. I take pictures with it, but
don't quite have the whole relationship between aperture, shutter
speed, iso down yet... still learning.

I have to take pictures at a big awards ceremony. I will be up on
stage, and the winners will walk to accept their award. The
lighting will be funky and uneven, most likely a combination of
spotlight, colored lights, and a huge projection screen.

I have to crouch down to take the shots, and of course no tripod.

Here are my thoughts:

• Fast shutter to catch people as they walk?

Click to expand...

Probably somewhere in the 1/100 neighborhood. This speed probably will not totally freeze them, but their upper torsos shouldn't have much motion blur.

Matt Snow said:

• Only have the defalt flash, but should use this to freeze the

people? (how to force flash with manual settings?

Click to expand...

You better be close or it won't help much at all. If you are farther than a dozen feet, or so away, its iillumination drops off very quicky.

Matt Snow said:

• Need a higher ISO to compensate for the fast shutter?

Click to expand...

Yep. This is the best bet Hello ISO1600.....lol Hey, even ISO3200 shots are better than motion blurred, or no, shots at all.

Matt Snow said:

• Need an f stop of about 4 (low as it goes?)

Click to expand...

Actually, you probably need something in the F2 range, but you'll have to work with what you have (or pick up the $80 50mm F1.8 With this lens and probably using ISO1600, you should get decent results. Shoot in RAW so you can easily adjust the wb and it will also give you some added exposure flexability.

Matt Snow said:

I have scoured the posts on here, and have gotten some info, but
needed to post since this is a huge deal and I don't want to screw
it up

thanks!
Matt

Click to expand...

Good luck Matt,
Steve

--
http://www.pbase.com/slo2k
http://freezeframephotography.smugmug.com
http://www.photobird.com/steve

Thanks very much for the info.

I was just told that the lighting won't be that bad... lots of canned lights I guess, so my "low light" worry isn't as bad as I thought.

I might not use flash and just do a continuous mode, where I can bob and weave if needed. Would like to keep the f-stop around 8 if possible... depending on the light.

I will be there for an awards rehearsal, which is good, so will try shutter of 1/100th (at least) and play with iso/f-stop to see what I can do.

What about partial metering and center metering?

Also, just found out that I am going to have to shoot (well, photograph) a prominent ex-presidential runner-up. YIKES!

m.

Get close to the people you are photographing and shoot within 10 feet. The onboard flash should work.

You can try these settings:

• set the 20D to ISO400-800, f/5.6 to 6.3, 1/160 to 1/250.
• set the 17-85 lens to about 24mm.
• set exposure to M (manual).

If you want less ambient light in, use a lower ISO number. Beware at ISO100, the whole place behind your subjects would turn into a cave. You can practice with some people first to get a feel of it.
--
Nelson
http://pbase.com/nelsonc

Will try these settings. Also gonna practice in rehearsal, and write down what seems to give the best results. Will have my Mac laptop on hand to DL the pix and get a better view.

Matt

It all depends on the actual lighting. I shoot a cabaret show and play every year. Unless it is extremely well lit, forget F8 or anything around it. You will most likely have to shoot wide open (hopefully F2.8 or better) and maybe 1 stop more and ISO 800-1600. It of course also depends on how much movement you have to seal with. I try to stop dancers and singers. The dancers of course move around much more than the singers but even they are hard to stop sometimes.

I agree with someone’s remark to get the 50mm f/1.8 as it is an excellent quality inexpensive lens and great for shooting low light. I used this lens most of the time (last year went to the F/1.4 version) but with shooting that high an ISO, I can get by sometimes with my F/2.8's.

If you do have good lighting then you can of course raise the F-stop or lower the ISO (or both) depending on just how good you light is.

If you use your on-board flash, you can of course shoot at lower ISO & higher aperture at 1/200 if you want but have to be within about 10-12ft max. If you had an external flash like the 550EX, you could get much further away and/or use even better settings but if there are colored lighting; you will lose some of the ambiance by using a flash.

If you care to see any of my stage shots, they are on my PBase site listed below. They are all under 'The Becket Players' and 'Canada Day' and I have a few years worth to choose from each in another folder. They were not actually the best of what I took. They were usually just the first ones as I wanted to get them up on the site so they could go in and see them the next day.

Good luck with your shoot and post some pics to show how it went.
--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
See my profile for equipment list

I while back I posted a question on these boards about shooting a production by a local theatre group and got some good advice. I was expecting the light to be bad, and it was - and it was even worse than I thought! In some cases, a single light coming down from the roof.

Anyway, the key pieces of advice were to crank the ISO up and use as large an aperture as possible. I didnt have the luxury of flash as it would interupt the performance. I have a 10D so the noise at ISO1600 is a lot worse than a 20D so I tried to stick to ISO800 were I could and jumped to ISO1600 when there was no other option. The suggestion someone else had about the 50mm f1.8 is a good one, I used my 85mm f1.8 a bit and found it great. Just remember you have a really shallow depth of field (if you shoot wide open) and its easy to get one person in focus and the another out of focus.

I know you said you may have to capture people walking, but I had the most success picking moments when the actors had stopped moving - not sure if you will have the option, but it may be worth picking your moments.

Some examples here - http://members.iinet.net.au/~cbath/glasshouse/

Thanks!

As far as spending $330+ to get the 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 lens (Amazon?), I might be able to convince my boss... but what about autofocus at such a low f-stop?

So, talking out loud here.... with my current lens, would be about 10-15 feet away:

• iso 800-1600
• f-stop 4 (low as it can go)
• shutter of max 1/100 to avoid blur

with the 50mm:

• iso 400-800
• f-stop at 1.4 -r 1.8
• shutter at 1/100 - 1/200?

Of course will take many practice shots, and may even have to use built-in flash to freeze people walking... but would rather not.

thanks,
Matt

A few things...

High ISO, 1600 if you can, 3200 if you must.

Meter the scene before people arrive, and use ONE exposure setting to avoid auto metering funkiness in the stage lighting, off of a gray card if you can.

Wide aperture to get the fastest possible shutter speeds. So probably f/4 in Manual mode with whatever shutter speed you can get.

IS on, unless the shutter speeds are faster than say 1/100th of a second.

And last but not least, shoot in RAW so you can get rid of the noise better, and have the best color and exposure.

I hope this helps, and another thing you could do you really help is buy the Canon 50mm f/1.8 lens. It will be MUCH faster than your f/4 lens and is pretty cheap, with still pretty good quality too!
--
http://usedtoit03.deviantart.com/gallery

Matt Snow said:

Thanks!

As far as spending $330+ to get the 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 lens (Amazon?),
I might be able to convince my boss... but what about autofocus at
such a low f-stop?

Click to expand...

Neither 50mm can focus that fast. The 50 1.8 has an ancient motor and is noisy, slow and inaccurate. The 50 1.4 is better due to USM but it is not ring USM like your 17-85.

Matt Snow said:

So, talking out loud here.... with my current lens, would be about
10-15 feet away:

• iso 800-1600
• f-stop 4 (low as it can go)
• shutter of max 1/100 to avoid blur

with the 50mm:

• iso 400-800
• f-stop at 1.4 -r 1.8
• shutter at 1/100 - 1/200?

Click to expand...

Both are not so sharp wide open. So the useable F stop would 2.8 for the 1.8 and 2.2 for the 1.4. At those F stops and close range, you don't have much DOF and margin for focus error.

Matt Snow said:

Of course will take many practice shots, and may even have to use
built-in flash to freeze people walking... but would rather not.

Click to expand...

If you can use flash, it would be your best tool. Use ISO 400 at least unless you want a black cave around your subjects.
--
Nelson
http://pbase.com/nelsonc

If this is an official event and you are the official photog, they may pose for the picture which will allow you to not have to worry too much about their movement. If not then you will have to experiment. Use your LCD and review the shots. Shoot RAW so you have more chance to recoer if there are any problems.

BTW, the 50 f/1.8 can be found for somewhere between $60-$80 USD. The F/1.4 is the $3?? one but you do not have to spend that much. The 1.8 is an excellent lens and Canon's greatest buy.
--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
See my profile for equipment list

my 0.02s

I shoot stage/theater and this advice is based on my experience
Here are some samples:
http://www.livewireradio.org/lookslike.php
(all shots were at IO 3200 using a 28-135 IS or 10-22)

• high ISO (3200) makes the flash reach to amazing distances; even the onbaord flash can assist at 50 feet; flash light color is the problem area; it's quite blue compared to the stage lights; an external flash with a gold colored reflector can help this, but flash is challenging no mater what; try to avoid it
• high ISO on the 20D is amazing when combined with Raw and Adobe Camera Raw 3+; the noise can be mitigated and balanced with other concerns: motion blur, shallow DOF, etc; by this I mean that the high ISO noise concern is workable considering the tradeoffs
• I shoot aperture priority, wide open or there abouts and use the exposure compensation wheel to tune as I shoot; lighting will vary continuously as subjects move during a show and the 20D tends to overexpose a bit for small bright subjects on dark backgrounds when the lit object is the primary subject. I dial back from 1/2 to 1-1/2 stops depending on how small/hot the subject is in the frame; under exposure is a tad more correctable than over exposure
• mind what you focus on; mic vs face; short DOF subject movement
• the power of post processing cannot be overstated; Raw is the ticket
• put yourself in a position relative to the subject to minimize motion blur; eg, subjects moving towards/away from you
• the quality sacrifice of ISO3200 over ISO 1600 is worth it to stop movement
• exposure may vary tremendously depending on the shot, so stay aware of what the camera is telling you and use review to evaluate as you shoot; do not fall into a habit of assuming that because the last shot was good that the next will be if you are moving around a lot or the stage lighting is changing. WHat I mean is that you ave to develop an immediate sense of what's going on around you and accomodate; BE ACTIVE in your work; lens IS is not going to stop the people, so try to predict focus and consider changing technique when shots are problematic; eg, be wiling to go to manual focus or use exposure set, or dial the apterture to excrease DOF if subjects are in a receding line away from you and light permits, etc.
• shoot alot; keep paying attention and keep varying your approach; you'll notice that you hit grooves where you quickly understand (grok) the scene and you can turn your concentration away from the dials and towards what the subject is doing and how you want to portray the subject; this is when the really good work can happen.
• let the feelings of discouragement that will hit you pass and keep a good attitude; remember to stay present and available and responsive to/for the people you are working around/with.

Good luck

-wire

Hi,

So everything went fairly well, though since I couldn't use a tripod, and wasn't really close enough for flash, some of the images have a slight blur.

Wound up buying the 50mm lens, and it worked well, though I opted to use the 17-85mm for a bunch of shots, and kept it around 24-35mm.

Here are just a couple of samples:





Thanks for all the help!
m.

As long as you got what you needed. That is the important part.

--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
See my profile for equipment list