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F707...Any Reason NOT to buy?

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Lenny

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Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for some time now and all the help and info that has been given has surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
 
Hi Lenny!

It's a HUGE purchase for me. It's taken me a lot of months of soul searching to decide what i want. I bought a "cheapo" HP315 to do a proof of concept and to see what i really wanted.

I guess before i would tell you not to buy it, i'd have to know why you want it? what other camera's did you consider? Do you shoot film now? With what kind of camera?

What do you like/dislike about it? What's your normal subject matter?

That's enough for now -
Tracey
Lenny said:
Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post
in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for
some time now and all the help and info that has been given has
surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is
released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable
amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the
camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any
help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
Click to expand...
 
Hi Tracey. I am an amatuer at best. Have owned Minolta SLR's and currently own a Kodak DC260. Love to just take normal pics and print them on my Epson printer.
TraceyS said:
It's a HUGE purchase for me. It's taken me a lot of months of soul
searching to decide what i want. I bought a "cheapo" HP315 to do a
proof of concept and to see what i really wanted.

I guess before i would tell you not to buy it, i'd have to know why
you want it? what other camera's did you consider? Do you shoot
film now? With what kind of camera?

What do you like/dislike about it? What's your normal subject matter?

That's enough for now -
Tracey
Lenny said:
Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post
in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for
some time now and all the help and info that has been given has
surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is
released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable
amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the
camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any
help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Lenny:

I concur with TraceyS. We need to know your priorities with your potential camera:

1) Do you want a pocket-sized small digicam, or do you want a slightly larger camera? (Rule of thumb, pocket-size cameras are lacking in major manual features; Other rule of thumb--most S85-like prosumer cameras are generally one pound and pocket size are about 1/2 that; the F707 is 1.5 pounds);

2) Do you have experience with an older cameras? If yes, you may want to consider other prosumer cameras that sit on the border b/w true SLR cameras and prosumer models.

3) What's your price point?

4) What do you want in terms of manual featjre? Do you take wiee angle or telephoto shots more often.

5) Do you like the idea of having RAW format files for downloading and using it for digital darkroom work.

I could add many, many other questions, but I think you see my point.

Kind regards.

Mike M
TraceyS said:
It's a HUGE purchase for me. It's taken me a lot of months of soul
searching to decide what i want. I bought a "cheapo" HP315 to do a
proof of concept and to see what i really wanted.

I guess before i would tell you not to buy it, i'd have to know why
you want it? what other camera's did you consider? Do you shoot
film now? With what kind of camera?

What do you like/dislike about it? What's your normal subject matter?

That's enough for now -
Tracey
Lenny said:
Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post
in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for
some time now and all the help and info that has been given has
surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is
released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable
amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the
camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any
help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Ya, what you said!

Anymore disney shots for me?

Tracey
Mike M said:
I concur with TraceyS. We need to know your priorities with your
potential camera:

1) Do you want a pocket-sized small digicam, or do you want a
slightly larger camera? (Rule of thumb, pocket-size cameras are
lacking in major manual features; Other rule of thumb--most
S85-like prosumer cameras are generally one pound and pocket size
are about 1/2 that; the F707 is 1.5 pounds);

2) Do you have experience with an older cameras? If yes, you may
want to consider other prosumer cameras that sit on the border b/w
true SLR cameras and prosumer models.

3) What's your price point?

4) What do you want in terms of manual featjre? Do you take wiee
angle or telephoto shots more often.

5) Do you like the idea of having RAW format files for downloading
and using it for digital darkroom work.

I could add many, many other questions, but I think you see my point.

Kind regards.

Mike M
TraceyS said:
It's a HUGE purchase for me. It's taken me a lot of months of soul
searching to decide what i want. I bought a "cheapo" HP315 to do a
proof of concept and to see what i really wanted.

I guess before i would tell you not to buy it, i'd have to know why
you want it? what other camera's did you consider? Do you shoot
film now? With what kind of camera?

What do you like/dislike about it? What's your normal subject matter?

That's enough for now -
Tracey
Lenny said:
Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post
in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for
some time now and all the help and info that has been given has
surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is
released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable
amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the
camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any
help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
i can give you one compelling reason...

i just moved and i have no money!!!! =)

otherwise, i wouldn't hold myself (and you) back for making such an outstanding product. =)
Lenny said:
Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post
in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for
some time now and all the help and info that has been given has
surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is
released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable
amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the
camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any
help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
Click to expand...
 
I've got a million of them, TraceyS. What are you looking for? I've got Magic Kingdom, Downtown Disney, Beach Club, Grand Floridian, Contemporary Resort, Swann/Dolphin, Beach Club/Yacht Club, Epcot, MGM, and the Boardwalk.

I've placed only a fraction of them on the Web. Respond and can e-mail them to you.

Kind reards.

Mike M
TraceyS said:
Anymore disney shots for me?

Tracey
Mike M said:
I concur with TraceyS. We need to know your priorities with your
potential camera:

1) Do you want a pocket-sized small digicam, or do you want a
slightly larger camera? (Rule of thumb, pocket-size cameras are
lacking in major manual features; Other rule of thumb--most
S85-like prosumer cameras are generally one pound and pocket size
are about 1/2 that; the F707 is 1.5 pounds);

2) Do you have experience with an older cameras? If yes, you may
want to consider other prosumer cameras that sit on the border b/w
true SLR cameras and prosumer models.

3) What's your price point?

4) What do you want in terms of manual featjre? Do you take wiee
angle or telephoto shots more often.

5) Do you like the idea of having RAW format files for downloading
and using it for digital darkroom work.

I could add many, many other questions, but I think you see my point.

Kind regards.

Mike M
TraceyS said:
It's a HUGE purchase for me. It's taken me a lot of months of soul
searching to decide what i want. I bought a "cheapo" HP315 to do a
proof of concept and to see what i really wanted.

I guess before i would tell you not to buy it, i'd have to know why
you want it? what other camera's did you consider? Do you shoot
film now? With what kind of camera?

What do you like/dislike about it? What's your normal subject matter?

That's enough for now -
Tracey
Lenny said:
Hi there. First of all I would like to thank all the folks who post
in these forums! I have been in the market for a new camera for
some time now and all the help and info that has been given has
surely been appreciated!!

After MUCH research, I have decided to buy the F707 when it is
released. I am by no means rich and the $1000.00 is a considerable
amount of money for me but I am willing to spend it considering the
camera.

One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)

Sorry but I just don't want to make a $1000.00 dollar mistake! Any
help, again, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!

Lenny
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Lenny said:
One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)
Click to expand...
1. Noise (worse than best of 3mp cameras). Gets MUCH worse
when shooting outdoors in summer
2. Oversaturated reds and "oversaturated red noise"

Anyway, to me... it's lens plus startup time beat these two problems... so I'm waiting to get for for $799 including shipping. I'm sure that will happen very soon. If Canon annouces it's next generation 90IS Pro, I'd buy Canon for sure, no questions asked!
 
Ehh...where are you getting this info. there are no indications either of these things are a problem with the 707
softtower said:
Lenny said:
One last request......... If anyone knows of a reason that I
shouldn't purchase this camera, would you please let me know now
before I spend the money? :):):)
Click to expand...
1. Noise (worse than best of 3mp cameras). Gets MUCH worse
when shooting outdoors in summer
2. Oversaturated reds and "oversaturated red noise"

Anyway, to me... it's lens plus startup time beat these two
problems... so I'm waiting to get for for $799 including shipping.
I'm sure that will happen very soon. If Canon annouces it's next
generation 90IS Pro, I'd buy Canon for sure, no questions asked!
Click to expand...
 
Someguy said:
I don't know where you get your information from. This review
states that the F707 has noise levels LOWER than the G2 and almost
as low as the D1 and D30:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F707/F7A12.HTM
Click to expand...
I knew someone will post this silly link (either pre-production camera had less noise or thier method is crappy, or maybe they smoked some good stuff before testing ;-). Look: go to steves-digicams, and open the same test image, taken by G2 and 707 and just compare. This one is especially recommended:



Even G1 does this much better. I beleive 707 has the same noise levels as my old DSC S70, which can be had for $450 now.

Also, look at 707's skys: they're just awful. Look at the sky at this picture from Phil's review:



After doing all that (what I just recommended), you'll get a very good reason not to buy 707. However, I can live with that: daylight "easy" pictures (like those from Phil's gallery) look just fine. "Hard" ones (with the flat gray areas - where Sony's horrible noise is killing me) are still fixable in Photoshop. I can't afford not to get 4.5 hours of battery life, 5x optical zoom, 2.6 sec. startup time. 707 is awesome camera, but it's streight ins't in a image quality. Image quality is Sony's weakness and has always been.

Eugueny
Someguy said:
Someguy
Click to expand...
 
re:"Image quality is Sony's weakness and has always been."

I'm not a big fan of Sony cameras in general, BUT Steve's review of the 505V was very favorable. If I remember correctly he rated its image quality very high.

Apparently not everyone thinks that Sony cameras have an image quality problem.

Someguy
 
Someguy said:
re:"Image quality is Sony's weakness and has always been."

I'm not a big fan of Sony cameras in general, BUT Steve's review of
the 505V was very favorable. If I remember correctly he rated its
image quality very high.
Click to expand...
Did you look (and compared!) those images? Do you agree that 707 is too noisy for a year 2002 camera? We've seen noise levels less than that a year ago! (G1)
Someguy said:
Apparently not everyone thinks that Sony cameras have an image
quality problem.
Click to expand...
What makes me sick is that 60% of all cameras get rated as "highly recommended" by Phil, and 60% of all reviews say about all cameras "excellent image quality" (other 40% usually go as "good image quality"). Nobody has ever said: "this camera makes crappy pictures".

But when new 3mp camera rolls out to the market, everybody uses Canon G1 or Nikon 995 to do comparison. Why? I won't be surprised, if 6 month from now, after we'll see 5mp offerings from Nikon and Canon, nobody will ever use 707's picture to do comparison with new camera reviews.
 
there are many cameras on the market which pil did not review, toshiba, kodak, HP and no name brands. those are the ones really make crappy pictures.
softtower said:
Someguy said:
re:"Image quality is Sony's weakness and has always been."

I'm not a big fan of Sony cameras in general, BUT Steve's review of
the 505V was very favorable. If I remember correctly he rated its
image quality very high.
Click to expand...
Did you look (and compared!) those images? Do you agree that 707 is
too noisy for a year 2002 camera? We've seen noise levels less than
that a year ago! (G1)
softtower said:
Apparently not everyone thinks that Sony cameras have an image
quality problem.
Click to expand...
What makes me sick is that 60% of all cameras get rated as "highly
recommended" by Phil, and 60% of all reviews say about all cameras
"excellent image quality" (other 40% usually go as "good image
quality"). Nobody has ever said: "this camera makes crappy
pictures".

But when new 3mp camera rolls out to the market, everybody uses
Canon G1 or Nikon 995 to do comparison. Why? I won't be surprised,
if 6 month from now, after we'll see 5mp offerings from Nikon and
Canon, nobody will ever use 707's picture to do comparison with new
camera reviews.
Click to expand...
 
I want to get to the bottom of the F707 noise and red saturation issues as much as you do. I am also sure that the F707 reviewer I referenced wants to provide a solid review of the camera. He does seem to have a good scientific method of measuring noise and I would trust his numbers more than I would trust my eye viewing my monitor.
softtower said:
Did you look (and compared!) those images? Do you agree that 707 is
too noisy for a year 2002 camera? We've seen noise levels less than
that a year ago! (G1)
Click to expand...
I am looking at the G2 and F707 images side by side on my computer. I don't know what to say.

The first thing I notice is that they are not the same images: the objects have been moved, the camera angle is different, the lighting is different, etc.

The second thing I notice is that I can't tell what is camera captured noise, what my monitor/video card is having trouble reproducing and what is the result of better resolution/different color encoding between the cameras.

I can see individual pixels stand out of supposedly solid colors on both images. Is that what you are calling noise ??? Quite frankly, I think that if these images were printed blown up on a good color inject printer that you would have a different impression. Printers print at 1440 DPI. Monitors display at 72 DPI. An equivilant size blowup ie: 16x 12 ? would be necessary to resolve this issue.

Maybe I need to get a better video card.
softtower said:
But when new 3mp camera rolls out to the market, everybody uses
Canon G1 or Nikon 995 to do comparison. Why? I won't be surprised,
if 6 month from now, after we'll see 5mp offerings from Nikon and
Canon, nobody will ever use 707's picture to do comparison with new
camera reviews.
Click to expand...
The reference I quoted compared the F707 to the G2, D30 and D1. What more do you want ?

I suspect that your eyeball comparison method is less accurate than his comparison method. I suspect if these images were printed the F707 would be the higher quality image.

Someguy
 
Someguy said:
.. and I would trust his numbers more than I would trust my
eye viewing my monitor.
Click to expand...
Wow! What a statement! ;-) Actually, imaging-resource article (and noise measurements) were based on a pre-production camera. And I swear, that I noticed 3 major differences:
1. Pre-production unit had less in-camera sharpening (good)
2. Pre-production unit had less noise (good)
3. It had stronger saturation (bad)

Actually, the first two facts are related: I suppose they've reduced their "clear color" noise reduction system to produce more sharp image (lots of people were complainig about the 'soft' pre-production camera images).
Someguy said:
I am looking at the G2 and F707 images side by side on my computer.
I don't know what to say.
The first thing I notice is that they are not the same images: the
objects have been moved, the camera angle is different, the
lighting is different, etc.
Click to expand...
True. But it should not matter as far as exposure is the same.
Someguy said:
I can see individual pixels stand out of supposedly solid colors on
both images. Is that what you are calling noise ???
Click to expand...
Yes, it is noise. Or, better to say, it's what left of the noise after in-camera noise-reduction system worked on that.
Someguy said:
Quite frankly, I think that if these images were printed blown up on a
good color inject printer that you would have a different
impression. Printers print at 1440 DPI. Monitors display at 72
DPI. An equivilant size blowup ie: 16x 12 ? would be necessary to
resolve this issue.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is true. I've printed almost all pictures from G2 and 707 galleries at 400dpi (printer setting was 1440 dpi). That's one of the reasons I'm ready to give up on sony's noise. But it's there and that's what bothers me. ;-)
Someguy said:
Maybe I need to get a better video card.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. You see pretty much what I see. I often go back to D30 review and just restore: how a noise-free image looks like. It helps me evaluating noise of different cameras.
Someguy said:
Someguy said:
Canon G1 or Nikon 995 to do comparison. Why? I won't be surprised,
if 6 month from now, after we'll see 5mp offerings from Nikon and
Canon, nobody will ever use 707's picture to do comparison with new
camera reviews.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Someguy said:
The reference I quoted compared the F707 to the G2, D30 and D1.
What more do you want ?
Click to expand...
Ok, look at 10 revies of last year 3MP cameras and see what Phil was comparing them with.
Someguy said:
I suspect that your eyeball comparison method is less accurate than
his comparison method.
Click to expand...
You need scientific method of noise measurement (or any kind of measurement) only when your eye can't catch the difference. Pre-production F707 had very-very low noise and I wasn't even sure if it's less than G2. That's why imaging-resource did their measurement. But looking at production 707's images (especially that night shot) it's not even a question - it's noisy!
Someguy said:
I suspect if these images were printed the
F707 would be the higher quality image.
Click to expand...
Up to some size - yes. But if you print those night shots (G2 and 707) 8x11" you'll notice big differnetce, G2 is much cleaner. But I don't usually print 8x11", that's I'm going (most likely) with 707.

Eugueny
Someguy said:
Someguy
Click to expand...
 
softtower said:
Someguy said:
.. and I would trust his numbers more than I would trust my
eye viewing my monitor.
Click to expand...
Wow! What a statement! ;-) Actually, imaging-resource article (and
noise measurements) were based on a pre-production camera. And I
swear, that I noticed 3 major differences:
1. Pre-production unit had less in-camera sharpening (good)
2. Pre-production unit had less noise (good)
3. It had stronger saturation (bad)

Actually, the first two facts are related: I suppose they've
reduced their "clear color" noise reduction system to produce more
sharp image (lots of people were complainig about the 'soft'
pre-production camera images).
Click to expand...
So turn off in-camera sharpening. All it does is amplify noise and trash detail.

If you really need sharpening (and I suspect there's a lot less need for "sharpening" than most people think) Photoshop does a much better job than any camera. Especially since the amount, width, and threshold should be different for different print sizes and different screen display sizes. One-size fits all sharpening is going to be wrong 99.9% of the time.

Of course, that means it's much harder to compare cameras, since most of the samples out there are with in-camera sharpening at the default. The apparrent noise in the S85 with sharpening on and off is radically different.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
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