Photo: an Afghani boy

Paul Linder · Sep 18, 2001

Yes FJ, I think cooler heads will prevail and use a good deal of time to develop a coalition, a plan, and a logistics base. However the size of the job and the geopolitical complexities will draw this crusade out for all of our lifetimes including the baby boomers. Our life will forever be changed here, and maybe we will be inclined to educate ourselves more on the other peoples and religions of the world and less on the what the latest movie DVD is being offered.
Paul Linder

FJBrad said:
Andreas P. said:

It is a waste of time to respond to such a posting but i am already
doing it.

Fortunately your government is more wise than obviously you are.

A senseless act of revengejust would be the beginning of something
worse...

A.P.

Click to expand...

Kyle,
I think it's important to not let passions and feelings over ride
logic and reason. That's how the liberals decision-make!
That little boy may regard the Taliban as an enemy, and, if we can
win him over by fighting in support of the Northern tribes
(Afghan's equivalent to Montegnards in Viet Nam?), we might not
have to go back in five or ten years. Maybe the anti-Taliban rebels
aren't going to be much better than the Taliban, but they can't be
much worse.
All life has value. Weighing the degree of civilian casualties
deemed acceptable should be a military decision, not a visceral
one, one way or the other.
I sympathize with your sense of outrage. But I think it important
to keep it focused.
FJBrad

Bois Wilson · Sep 18, 2001

Paul Linder wrote:
maybe we will

Paul Linder said:
be inclined to educate ourselves more on the other peoples and
religions of the world and less on the what the latest movie DVD is
being offered.

Exactly. If we screw up this might just be the beginning of the end. Guns and bombs have NO chance of stopping terrorism! (although I have no problem with using them), but it's a lot like treating a spreading cancer by amputation without chemo. It just keeps coming back.

bois

Paul Linder said:
FJBrad said:

Andreas P. said:

It is a waste of time to respond to such a posting but i am already
doing it.

Fortunately your government is more wise than obviously you are.

A senseless act of revengejust would be the beginning of something
worse...

A.P.

Click to expand...

Kyle,
I think it's important to not let passions and feelings over ride
logic and reason. That's how the liberals decision-make!
That little boy may regard the Taliban as an enemy, and, if we can
win him over by fighting in support of the Northern tribes
(Afghan's equivalent to Montegnards in Viet Nam?), we might not
have to go back in five or ten years. Maybe the anti-Taliban rebels
aren't going to be much better than the Taliban, but they can't be
much worse.
All life has value. Weighing the degree of civilian casualties
deemed acceptable should be a military decision, not a visceral
one, one way or the other.
I sympathize with your sense of outrage. But I think it important
to keep it focused.
FJBrad

Click to expand...

Pat C · Sep 18, 2001

Hmmm. I wonder if anyone got a shot of one of those 2 little girls at the point of incineration as her plane hit one of its targets last tuesday. At least we know her future--Pat C.

yue said:
http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

FJBrad · Sep 18, 2001

Bois Wilson said:
Bois Wilson said:

be inclined to educate ourselves more on the other peoples and
religions of the world and less on the what the latest movie DVD is
being offered.

Click to expand...

Exactly. If we screw up this might just be the beginning of the
end. Guns and bombs have NO chance of stopping terrorism!
(although I have no problem with using them), but it's a lot like
treating a spreading cancer by amputation without chemo. It just
keeps coming back.

bois

Great analogy, Bois.
FJBrad

Patrick Martin · Sep 18, 2001

Pat -

Did one of your family members ever break a law? How about one of your neighbors? Anybody in the state of Florida ever kill anybody? Should we go arrest you for what your family member or neighbor did? Should we bomb Florida for allowing killers to exist?

How about some of the deep south states. We know that a terrorist organization, the KKK, killed or terrorized many, many innocent American citizens from the end of the Civil War on into the 1960s at least. Should we go and arrest and prosecute and execute all white people in Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana?

Show me the people who helped hijack the planes and I'll put bullets in each one of them myself. Show me the people who supported them and I'll fire up the electric chair. Show me the camps that trained them, and I'll send in the cruise missles.

But show me the picture of a dead 3 year old boy whose only sin was to be born in a perverted culture of irrational hatred, and I will weep for him. The horror of war is such that innocents will die. When war is truly necessary, we cannot let that horror stop us from doing what we must in righteous self defense. But we should not blame other innocent children for the death of our own innocent children.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:
yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Pat C · Sep 18, 2001

Patrick--

Let's think of all the children, even those yet to be born if we don't stop this kind of terrorism in its tracks--NOW!--Pat C.

Patrick Martin said:
Did one of your family members ever break a law? How about one of
your neighbors? Anybody in the state of Florida ever kill anybody?
Should we go arrest you for what your family member or neighbor
did? Should we bomb Florida for allowing killers to exist?

How about some of the deep south states. We know that a terrorist
organization, the KKK, killed or terrorized many, many innocent
American citizens from the end of the Civil War on into the 1960s
at least. Should we go and arrest and prosecute and execute all
white people in Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana?

Show me the people who helped hijack the planes and I'll put
bullets in each one of them myself. Show me the people who
supported them and I'll fire up the electric chair. Show me the
camps that trained them, and I'll send in the cruise missles.

But show me the picture of a dead 3 year old boy whose only sin was
to be born in a perverted culture of irrational hatred, and I will
weep for him. The horror of war is such that innocents will die.
When war is truly necessary, we cannot let that horror stop us from
doing what we must in righteous self defense. But we should not
blame other innocent children for the death of our own innocent
children.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Patrick Martin · Sep 18, 2001

Pat,

You are certainly right. We must stop terrorism in its tracks. That does require a combination of actions on our part which include military strikes. As I said, some innocent people, perhaps including this boy, will die in that conflict, and we cannot, in self-defense, let that prospect stop us from doing what we must.

But I will still weep for him, for I know that he bears no fault for the sins of his fathers. And his death will make me feel no safer.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:
Patrick Martin said:

Did one of your family members ever break a law? How about one of
your neighbors? Anybody in the state of Florida ever kill anybody?
Should we go arrest you for what your family member or neighbor
did? Should we bomb Florida for allowing killers to exist?

How about some of the deep south states. We know that a terrorist
organization, the KKK, killed or terrorized many, many innocent
American citizens from the end of the Civil War on into the 1960s
at least. Should we go and arrest and prosecute and execute all
white people in Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana?

Show me the people who helped hijack the planes and I'll put
bullets in each one of them myself. Show me the people who
supported them and I'll fire up the electric chair. Show me the
camps that trained them, and I'll send in the cruise missles.

But show me the picture of a dead 3 year old boy whose only sin was
to be born in a perverted culture of irrational hatred, and I will
weep for him. The horror of war is such that innocents will die.
When war is truly necessary, we cannot let that horror stop us from
doing what we must in righteous self defense. But we should not
blame other innocent children for the death of our own innocent
children.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Tony56769 · Sep 18, 2001

Yikes, substiitute "The US" for "terrorism" in this statement and it could be uttered by Bin Laden!

Patrick Martin said:
You are certainly right. We must stop terrorism in its tracks. That
does require a combination of actions on our part which include
military strikes. As I said, some innocent people, perhaps
including this boy, will die in that conflict, and we cannot, in
self-defense, let that prospect stop us from doing what we must.

But I will still weep for him, for I know that he bears no fault
for the sins of his fathers. And his death will make me feel no
safer.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

Patrick Martin said:

Did one of your family members ever break a law? How about one of
your neighbors? Anybody in the state of Florida ever kill anybody?
Should we go arrest you for what your family member or neighbor
did? Should we bomb Florida for allowing killers to exist?

How about some of the deep south states. We know that a terrorist
organization, the KKK, killed or terrorized many, many innocent
American citizens from the end of the Civil War on into the 1960s
at least. Should we go and arrest and prosecute and execute all
white people in Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana?

Show me the people who helped hijack the planes and I'll put
bullets in each one of them myself. Show me the people who
supported them and I'll fire up the electric chair. Show me the
camps that trained them, and I'll send in the cruise missles.

But show me the picture of a dead 3 year old boy whose only sin was
to be born in a perverted culture of irrational hatred, and I will
weep for him. The horror of war is such that innocents will die.
When war is truly necessary, we cannot let that horror stop us from
doing what we must in righteous self defense. But we should not
blame other innocent children for the death of our own innocent
children.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Pat C · Sep 18, 2001

Patrick:

I certainly agree. I do not wish to see any more children die, they are all innocents. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so graphic in my original post, but life can be very graphic, especially in it's horrors--What we do to our children and to our world is horrible--It takes images, whether real or imagined to really bring it home to us--Perhaps more images of the broken and twisted bodies of our children will make us all realize just how bad human beings can get--Pat C.

Patrick Martin said:
You are certainly right. We must stop terrorism in its tracks. That
does require a combination of actions on our part which include
military strikes. As I said, some innocent people, perhaps
including this boy, will die in that conflict, and we cannot, in
self-defense, let that prospect stop us from doing what we must.

But I will still weep for him, for I know that he bears no fault
for the sins of his fathers. And his death will make me feel no
safer.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

Patrick Martin said:

Did one of your family members ever break a law? How about one of
your neighbors? Anybody in the state of Florida ever kill anybody?
Should we go arrest you for what your family member or neighbor
did? Should we bomb Florida for allowing killers to exist?

How about some of the deep south states. We know that a terrorist
organization, the KKK, killed or terrorized many, many innocent
American citizens from the end of the Civil War on into the 1960s
at least. Should we go and arrest and prosecute and execute all
white people in Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana?

Show me the people who helped hijack the planes and I'll put
bullets in each one of them myself. Show me the people who
supported them and I'll fire up the electric chair. Show me the
camps that trained them, and I'll send in the cruise missles.

But show me the picture of a dead 3 year old boy whose only sin was
to be born in a perverted culture of irrational hatred, and I will
weep for him. The horror of war is such that innocents will die.
When war is truly necessary, we cannot let that horror stop us from
doing what we must in righteous self defense. But we should not
blame other innocent children for the death of our own innocent
children.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jason Busch · Sep 18, 2001

tvg,

Hey, they wanted us to play the game, and we were officially invited on Sept 11. I wanna see them cry now. War is ugly, and innocent people will die. It is for the greater good of the world.

This is why the United States and other Member States of the world have been attacked so much. We try to "separate" ourselves from them and say, "we must never be like those bad people."

Wrong.

This is not how to fight terrorism. We must fight them with their own thinking, and with their own twisted ideology.

Read Sun Tzu. He knew what war was about and how to properly fight it.

Jason Busch

Dennis Unverferth · Sep 18, 2001

Sorry Mike. I was not responding to you. I was responding to the rest of the folks in the thread. I will be more careful in the future. Forgive me.
Dennis U

Tony56769 · Sep 18, 2001

I read on the news today there were thousands of Afghanis trying to cross the border into Pakistan, most were women and children, half starved. In desperation I think they finally rushed the guards, rather than face living in an already unbearable situation. There has been a famine for the last 3 years, and the Taliban keeps the people impoverished by refusing human aid from neighboring countries. The population of Afghanistan is without food or medicine, much less weaponry, they are no threat to us. We don't even know where the real enemy is yet, and until we do, we are wide open to practically any form of terrorism other than aircraft attack. This war is going to be a messy can of worms. I wouldn't be too excited about opening it up. If you think it will be as aseptic as the Gulf War you are wrong.

Jason Busch said:
tvg,

Hey, they wanted us to play the game, and we were officially
invited on Sept 11. I wanna see them cry now. War is ugly, and
innocent people will die. It is for the greater good of the world.

This is why the United States and other Member States of the world
have been attacked so much. We try to "separate" ourselves from
them and say, "we must never be like those bad people."

Wrong.

This is not how to fight terrorism. We must fight them with their
own thinking, and with their own twisted ideology.

Read Sun Tzu. He knew what war was about and how to properly fight it.

Jason Busch

MMT · Sep 18, 2001

Pat said:
I certainly agree. I do not wish to see any more children die,
they are all innocents. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so graphic
in my original post, but life can be very graphic, especially in
it's horrors--What we do to our children and to our world is
horrible--It takes images, whether real or imagined to really bring
it home to us--Perhaps more images of the broken and twisted bodies
of our children will make us all realize just how bad human beings
can get--Pat C.

Patrick Martin said:

You are certainly right. We must stop terrorism in its tracks. That
does require a combination of actions on our part which include
military strikes. As I said, some innocent people, perhaps
including this boy, will die in that conflict, and we cannot, in
self-defense, let that prospect stop us from doing what we must.

But I will still weep for him, for I know that he bears no fault
for the sins of his fathers. And his death will make me feel no
safer.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

Patrick Martin said:

Did one of your family members ever break a law? How about one of
your neighbors? Anybody in the state of Florida ever kill anybody?
Should we go arrest you for what your family member or neighbor
did? Should we bomb Florida for allowing killers to exist?

How about some of the deep south states. We know that a terrorist
organization, the KKK, killed or terrorized many, many innocent
American citizens from the end of the Civil War on into the 1960s
at least. Should we go and arrest and prosecute and execute all
white people in Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana?

Show me the people who helped hijack the planes and I'll put
bullets in each one of them myself. Show me the people who
supported them and I'll fire up the electric chair. Show me the
camps that trained them, and I'll send in the cruise missles.

But show me the picture of a dead 3 year old boy whose only sin was
to be born in a perverted culture of irrational hatred, and I will
weep for him. The horror of war is such that innocents will die.
When war is truly necessary, we cannot let that horror stop us from
doing what we must in righteous self defense. But we should not
blame other innocent children for the death of our own innocent
children.

Patrick Martin

Pat said:

yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What does Bin Laden want? Why doesn't he use his billions and this wasted money (bombing us) to help his own country? What is he after?

God...I'm so nieve.....Is he just power-tripping? How do defend against a guy like that with innocent children in the middle? What a big coward.
MMT

DB56170 · Sep 19, 2001

No one who serves in the US military wants war, even if to relieve anger over what had happened last week. Anyone who says he likes wars scares me.

Understandably, many have voiced their outrage of the WTC/Pentagon/PA tragedy, but we have forgotten that, stripped of culture, race, color, religious beliefs, social-economic status, we are all humans in desparate need of forgiveness of sins and transformed hearts. That is why God sent His Son Christ Jesus to die for us.

He is our only hope,

--- DB

ktimmerman said:
It pleases me to know, after reading these posts, that "Sheltered
Workshops" have finally gained access to the internet for some of
their workers. It further pleases me to know that ignorance is not
painful: would be very hard for some folks here to type. Thank
you for sharing the picture. It helps to realize that even our
enemies are members of the family of man. It is sad that we have
to go to war. It is sad, that this child will have to pay the
price for the stupidity of his leaders .. but so did the German
children ... the Japanese children .. the Serbian children ...
the Russian children .. the Cambodian children ... American
children ... ad nausium.

ktimmerman (Karl Timmerman M.A.J.D.)

DB56170 · Sep 19, 2001

Perhaps Hatem really did not post at all?

--- DB

omaha said:
hatem tawfik said:

Yue and Hatem, GET OUT OF HERE, go burn in hell

Click to expand...

???

do you have an identity problem hatem?

DB56170 · Sep 19, 2001

We should then kill Saddam, the Taliban, Bin Laden, and the likes. It will not be easy (if even possible) and many innocent people will be killed, unfortunately.

--- DB

Raul said:
yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

DB56170 · Sep 19, 2001

I'm glad you brought this up, Bois, I don't have to now...we really live in a pro-death society (and I don't mean to spare all the rogues who deserve to die).

--- DB

Bois Wilson said:
A commentator made a valid point last night on T.V. - we could save
more lives by stopping smoking and buckling up. That's not to
minimize the WTC tragedy - it's just interesting how little regard
we often display for human life (including our own)

bois

FJBrad said:

Bois Wilson said:

Is the satire at the expense of poor Mr Rush Limbaugh or whatever
he's called?

Even further off topic, how many Americans wouldn't die were gun
related death to stop for a year? I think it maybe a grisly
statistic that gun crimes kill more annually than the WTC outrage -
though of course it's not quite as good television and happens at
different times in different places during the course of a year.

Michael

Click to expand...

If just ONE person on each of those planes had had a concealed
weapon, we would be talking about cameras instead of this tragedy.
None of those terrorists had guns, and yet they managed to kill a
number of people even before they plowed the planes into theWTC and
Pentagon.
If you are ever confronted by a thug bent on destroying your life,
think of today and the sentiments you expressed here.
FJBrad

Click to expand...

Peter Siciliano · Sep 19, 2001

Kyle said:
yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Bomb Afghanistan until they are no longer on the map. Take that
little boy with them. Any bleeding heart liberal that wants to go
stand next to him can get blown up too!

I can sense that you've been very hurt by the incidences on September 11, 2001, and I pray that none of your friends or family were amongst those injured or missing.

This incident was an act of war against the United States and the monsters responsible for this horrific act chose to destroy as much innocent life as they could.

War may be unavoidable if any country's government is linked to this event. The sad truth is that many more innocent people in the world will likely lose their lives because of the actions of a few depraved sub-humans.

I wish the world peace and hope that the U.S. government is able to both bring these despicable f*&#@ers to justice and spare as many innocent lives as possible in the process. I'll bet that the government of your great country will succeed in this task.

Geez, am I glad I haven't had any children! What the hell is this world coming to?!?

PGS

Kyle59816 · Sep 19, 2001

Bryan said:
I have seen posts on this and other forums where good American
citizens have been asking "Why do people hate us so?" I don't and I
humbly feel sorry for what the good people of your country are
currently going through.

I am not a person who can hate easily. I don't believe in the
existence of an all might being so I cannot get brought into
religious argument, even though I do have a deep understanding of
many, many religions.

However back to my point. "Why do so many people hate Americans?"

the answer is simple:

"People like you, who are gladly a minority, but unfortunately
because you have a big loud mouth you get heard"

I rest my case - now shut up!

Kyle said:

yue said:

http://www.dpnet.com.cn/forum/images/ {B5446200-AA78-11D5-A9A3-000629D58109}.jpg

Click to expand...

Bomb Afghanistan until they are no longer on the map. Take that
little boy with them. Any bleeding heart liberal that wants to go
stand next to him can get blown up too!

Click to expand...

Johannes Müller · Sep 19, 2001

aa- your world view is an extremely simplified the good and the evil cliche!

aa said:
doug said:

there are alot of WTC scenes that are too horrific to show.
rescuers are reluctant to even discuss what they have seen.
reported a few days ago was the finding of a pair of hands bound
with cord found on top of an adjacent building. and many in
afghanistan (not all mind you, not even the majority) and other
nations harboring terrorists think this is ok, even justified. even
more are willing to defend the governments that support these
actions through funding, armament and refuge. this is the problem:
thousands of innocent children are taught western civilization is
evil outright. these children will see any transgression of the
west (even to pursue known terrorists) as an unforgiveable act, and
will pick up arms to replace those killed. the cycle will be VERY
difficult to break. the question i pose when i see this photo is:
what has this child been taught? did he start with reading? on to
math? or that bin Laden is righteous and that western civilization
has killed all your relatives and will kill you and your siblings
if you don't kill many americans?

Click to expand...

Yes you're so right. Unfortunantly these children are taught to
hate the west.

Take a look at the pic again...there's a guy in the
background....is he a recruiter for bin laden thinking how he can
lead the kid over to the dark side.

Photo: an Afghani boy

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