Reading mode: Light Dark

Canon D20

Go to last post
G

GBD

Member
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Location
NZ
Having just purhased a canon D20 I am very disappointed at the results related to focus and the sharpness of the image particularly when compared with scannned tranpserncies from my canon 35mm EOS.

When taking an image in the raw format and converting it to tiff the image file at 100% looks very soft which is particularly apparent when used to photograph buildings etc. with obvious hard edge lines. I have experimented with two different lenses to try to see if there is a difference but it does not seem to alter the results. Whilst I understand that an enlargement beyond 100% could influence this I am disappointed that the results seem so poor. Has anyone else experienced this and if so is there a solution or is it "as good as it gets"??

Further question: When wanting to increase the file size for reproduction is there a better program than photoshop? I have tried Genuine Fractals but can see no difference between the results it produces and photoshop. Any suggestions welcome
 
It's actually a 20D.

All Canon dslr's require (very) good lenses, careful exposure and post-processing to achive the best results - which in the case of the 20D are quite astonishingly good.

Forget everything you knew about film and learn the digital workflow and you will get the best out of your outstanding camera.

David
 
Thank you david. Yes you are right 20D, I have no issue with exposure with the camera it is simply a question of the sharpness of the image. Yes I asknowledge lense will make a difference however I am using the same lenses on both cameras. If you have any suggestions I might try I would appreciate this. I have tried every possible combination from lenses to tripods to ISO rates to speed and Av values ...still no imporvement.
 
Which lenses are you using?

The 'consumer zoom' range of lenses simply aren't good enough to resolve the fine detail the sensor needs - it may well be good enough for film but digital is a different story, far far better.

The highest quality will of course be obtained at low (100 to 200) ISO, with a shutter speed high enough to avoid camera shake and an aperture at least a couple of stops down from maximum. Do not discount camera-shake as a potential issue, it can often present as lack of sharpness.

You can make the in-camera images sharper and more contrasty by changing the in-camera settings but the preferred mothod is always to shoot in RAW and process the files on a pc - preferably using non-Canon software (the Canon is awful) and ALWAYS expect to need to sharpen your shots to get the best out of them, this is what Canon intended - this is not film!

MILLIONS of people with new Canon dslr's think the camera isn't sharp - it really is, it is ALL in the post processing

David
GBD said:
Thank you david. Yes you are right 20D, I have no issue with
exposure with the camera it is simply a question of the sharpness
of the image. Yes I asknowledge lense will make a difference
however I am using the same lenses on both cameras. If you have any
suggestions I might try I would appreciate this. I have tried every
possible combination from lenses to tripods to ISO rates to speed
and Av values ...still no imporvement.
Click to expand...
 
If you don't mind I would just qualify that to say digital SLR photos need sharpening - the shots from the small point & shoot digicams are often oversharpened and this is why many people have problems when they upgrade to the dslr's.

The benefit of this intention under -sharpening is that one can enlarge the shot (or interpolate) without enlarging the artifacts sharpening creates.

This means you get tyour image(s) to the desired print size unsharpened and then sharpen last, this avoids the digital look and gives the best quality print

David
Mish B said:
All digital photos need sharpening. The camera actually has a
filter to soften the image to avoid Moiré. The manufacturer expects
you to sharpen the photos in post processing.

Don't give up!

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Digital_Imaging/Moire_01.htm
Click to expand...
 
There are several causes for this.

First, the Canon DSLRs have quite aggressive anti-aliasing filters. These filters are required to prevent the sensor from seeing detail which is so fine that it might cause moire patterns to be generated by the sampling system.

That sounds odd, but there is actually a filter ahead of the sensor whose job it is to "blur" the image a bit before it gets to the sensor itself to prevent this problem. The reasoning is that if you allow aliasing to occur (do a google for aliasing), the resulting image problems are virtually impossible to remove from the photo after the fact.

So the better way to go is to prevent this ahead of time by filtering off any detail above the Nyquist limit (another Google for Nyquist Theorem).

Ok, so now we've blurred the image to prevent a worse problem, and how are we going to get that detail back?

The answer is that you need to apply some sharpening after the fact in your post-processing of the images. Again, Canon has chosen to leave that up to the photographer and not do too much of it in the camera because sharpening is best done after the final resizing of the images.

Most consumer type digital cameras do the sharpening inside and do it fairly aggressively. This makes the photos look better right out of the camera, but it limits what you can do with them later.

So you will need to do sharpening of the images using your favorite photo manipulation software or you'll need to turn the in-camera sharpening up somewhat if you don't intend to do any work on the shots later in your computer and you're shooting in JPG instead of RAW.

Another issue which has been pointed out earlier is the criticality of having great lenses for a camera like this. The 20D has a sensor which is smaller than a normal piece of 35mm film. Thus, it requires that the lens be 1.6 times as "sharp" as the lens would need to be to get the same results on a full-frame of 35mm film. So lenses which seemed to be good on a film camera or full-frame digital body might fall short of your expectations when used on the 20D.

But I think that you'll find that with a bit of playing with things in post-processing using your photo editing software, you will be able to produce amazingly sharp photos with your 20D. It took me a while to get used to this, but I am very satisfied now that I've had more time to learn from the folks on this forum.

Good luck!

Ask all the questions you like on here. And post some example photos for us to enjoy and evaluate.

Most of all, have fun and don't get discouraged!

--
Jim H.
 
dhphoto said:
Which lenses are you using?

The 'consumer zoom' range of lenses simply aren't good enough to
resolve the fine detail the sensor needs - it may well be good
enough for film but digital is a different story, far far better.

The highest quality will of course be obtained at low (100 to 200)
ISO, with a shutter speed high enough to avoid camera shake and an
aperture at least a couple of stops down from maximum. Do not
discount camera-shake as a potential issue, it can often present as
lack of sharpness.

You can make the in-camera images sharper and more contrasty by
changing the in-camera settings but the preferred mothod is always
to shoot in RAW and process the files on a pc - preferably using
non-Canon software (the Canon is awful) and ALWAYS expect to need
to sharpen your shots to get the best out of them, this is what
Canon intended - this is not film!

MILLIONS of people with new Canon dslr's think the camera isn't
sharp - it really is, it is ALL in the post processing

David
Click to expand...
David,

The lenses I have are: Fixed 50mm canon, 28-105mm Canon and the lense it came with is 18-55mm.
I am not sure how you determine the quality of each.
The tests I have worked with were shot using 100 ISO.

Yes I have shot Raw images. I have tried both canon software and Adobe photoshop...also Genuine fractals.

I have been unable to find any in-camera reference to alter the sharpness.

Camera shake. I have gone to extremes with a tripod shooting at speeds from 100 to 500. I would be surprised if it were camera shake and the subject of the tests is a building so little chance of that moving....I hope

Yes I have taken the same shot and duplicated it in a series of sharpness using the canon software however it ultimately blows the shot out.

What software do you recommend?
What lenses inabout this range do you recommend?
 
JimH said:
There are several causes for this.

First, the Canon DSLRs have quite aggressive anti-aliasing filters.
These filters are required to prevent the sensor from seeing detail
which is so fine that it might cause moire patterns to be generated
by the sampling system.

That sounds odd, but there is actually a filter ahead of the sensor
whose job it is to "blur" the image a bit before it gets to the
sensor itself to prevent this problem. The reasoning is that if
you allow aliasing to occur (do a google for aliasing), the
resulting image problems are virtually impossible to remove from
the photo after the fact.

So the better way to go is to prevent this ahead of time by
filtering off any detail above the Nyquist limit (another Google
for Nyquist Theorem).

Ok, so now we've blurred the image to prevent a worse problem, and
how are we going to get that detail back?

The answer is that you need to apply some sharpening after the fact
in your post-processing of the images. Again, Canon has chosen to
leave that up to the photographer and not do too much of it in the
camera because sharpening is best done after the final resizing of
the images.

Most consumer type digital cameras do the sharpening inside and do
it fairly aggressively. This makes the photos look better right
out of the camera, but it limits what you can do with them later.

So you will need to do sharpening of the images using your favorite
photo manipulation software or you'll need to turn the in-camera
sharpening up somewhat if you don't intend to do any work on the
shots later in your computer and you're shooting in JPG instead of
RAW.

Another issue which has been pointed out earlier is the criticality
of having great lenses for a camera like this. The 20D has a
sensor which is smaller than a normal piece of 35mm film. Thus, it
requires that the lens be 1.6 times as "sharp" as the lens would
need to be to get the same results on a full-frame of 35mm film.
So lenses which seemed to be good on a film camera or full-frame
digital body might fall short of your expectations when used on the
20D.

But I think that you'll find that with a bit of playing with things
in post-processing using your photo editing software, you will be
able to produce amazingly sharp photos with your 20D. It took me a
while to get used to this, but I am very satisfied now that I've
had more time to learn from the folks on this forum.

Good luck!

Ask all the questions you like on here. And post some example
photos for us to enjoy and evaluate.

Most of all, have fun and don't get discouraged!

--
Jim H.
Click to expand...
 
will show soft images unless you have added some sharpening. Don't forget when you took in film, the processor tweaked your images; you just weren't aware of it. You should get better images than with scanned film images.
--
Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o.

I keep trying to find an artist's eye in the B & H catalog

 
GBD said:
David,

The lenses I have are: Fixed 50mm canon, 28-105mm Canon and the
lense it came with is 18-55mm.
Click to expand...
The 50mm is an excellent lens (both 1.4 & 1.8 versions), the others aren't!! The 18-55 is just about the worst lens in the world and should never have found its way into the Canon kit! Test only with the 50mm
GBD said:
I am not sure how you determine the quality of each.
The tests I have worked with were shot using 100 ISO.
Yes I have shot Raw images. I have tried both canon software and
Adobe photoshop...also Genuine fractals.

I have been unable to find any in-camera reference to alter the
sharpness.
Click to expand...
RTFM, its all in there!
GBD said:
Camera shake. I have gone to extremes with a tripod shooting at
speeds from 100 to 500. I would be surprised if it were camera
shake and the subject of the tests is a building so little chance
of that moving....I hope

Yes I have taken the same shot and duplicated it in a series of
sharpness using the canon software however it ultimately blows the
shot out.
Click to expand...
Blows the shot out? please show an example, I don't understand
GBD said:
What software do you recommend?
What lenses inabout this range do you recommend?
Click to expand...
At the cheap end of the market, I'd definitely buy BreezeBrowser from breezesys.com - THE most valuable piece of software for digital work, does everything including RAW conversions. If you already have PS then you're really all set - you might want to check out fredmiranda.com for PS plugins for sharpening & resizing - very good and cheap.

For raw I use Capture One Pro, which I find excellent but expensive.

Lenses: Personally I only buy Canon but that's just me, The sky is really the limit but 35mm F2 is cheap and useful, 85 1.8 is an exceptional value really sharp lens and for medium zooms the 70-200 F4 L is really, really good value for an L series lens.

David
 
Thank you Jim,

this is useful information.

If I understand the print criteria you are suggesting I should use photoshop to enlage the print size to the intended print size then sharpen it. ?
Question: What would you say was the maximum print size without loss of detail?
I will check the other aspects of Nyquist limits as this is not familiar to me.
GBD said:
JimH said:
There are several causes for this.

First, the Canon DSLRs have quite aggressive anti-aliasing filters.
These filters are required to prevent the sensor from seeing detail
which is so fine that it might cause moire patterns to be generated
by the sampling system.

That sounds odd, but there is actually a filter ahead of the sensor
whose job it is to "blur" the image a bit before it gets to the
sensor itself to prevent this problem. The reasoning is that if
you allow aliasing to occur (do a google for aliasing), the
resulting image problems are virtually impossible to remove from
the photo after the fact.

So the better way to go is to prevent this ahead of time by
filtering off any detail above the Nyquist limit (another Google
for Nyquist Theorem).

Ok, so now we've blurred the image to prevent a worse problem, and
how are we going to get that detail back?

The answer is that you need to apply some sharpening after the fact
in your post-processing of the images. Again, Canon has chosen to
leave that up to the photographer and not do too much of it in the
camera because sharpening is best done after the final resizing of
the images.

Most consumer type digital cameras do the sharpening inside and do
it fairly aggressively. This makes the photos look better right
out of the camera, but it limits what you can do with them later.

So you will need to do sharpening of the images using your favorite
photo manipulation software or you'll need to turn the in-camera
sharpening up somewhat if you don't intend to do any work on the
shots later in your computer and you're shooting in JPG instead of
RAW.

Another issue which has been pointed out earlier is the criticality
of having great lenses for a camera like this. The 20D has a
sensor which is smaller than a normal piece of 35mm film. Thus, it
requires that the lens be 1.6 times as "sharp" as the lens would
need to be to get the same results on a full-frame of 35mm film.
So lenses which seemed to be good on a film camera or full-frame
digital body might fall short of your expectations when used on the
20D.

But I think that you'll find that with a bit of playing with things
in post-processing using your photo editing software, you will be
able to produce amazingly sharp photos with your 20D. It took me a
while to get used to this, but I am very satisfied now that I've
had more time to learn from the folks on this forum.

Good luck!

Ask all the questions you like on here. And post some example
photos for us to enjoy and evaluate.

Most of all, have fun and don't get discouraged!

--
Jim H.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I use Fred Miranda's SI2 PS plugin (stair interpolation) which works very well indeed for resizing.

I just had some 54"x18" panorama's printed at 240dpi and they are otstanding, 36x24 is perfectly feasible with a well exposed (unsharpened) file

David
GBD said:
this is useful information.

If I understand the print criteria you are suggesting I should use
photoshop to enlage the print size to the intended print size then
sharpen it. ?
Question: What would you say was the maximum print size without
loss of detail?
I will check the other aspects of Nyquist limits as this is not
familiar to me.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you yet again. I shall check out the software you suggest and looks like I have to invest in some new lenses. Looks like I Jumped on the treadmill eh!!

This is my first attempt on this site so ...how do I post a shot??
dhphoto said:
dhphoto said:
David,

The lenses I have are: Fixed 50mm canon, 28-105mm Canon and the
lense it came with is 18-55mm.
Click to expand...
The 50mm is an excellent lens (both 1.4 & 1.8 versions), the others
aren't!! The 18-55 is just about the worst lens in the world and
should never have found its way into the Canon kit! Test only with
the 50mm
dhphoto said:
I am not sure how you determine the quality of each.
The tests I have worked with were shot using 100 ISO.
Yes I have shot Raw images. I have tried both canon software and
Adobe photoshop...also Genuine fractals.

I have been unable to find any in-camera reference to alter the
sharpness.
Click to expand...
RTFM, its all in there!
dhphoto said:
Camera shake. I have gone to extremes with a tripod shooting at
speeds from 100 to 500. I would be surprised if it were camera
shake and the subject of the tests is a building so little chance
of that moving....I hope

Yes I have taken the same shot and duplicated it in a series of
sharpness using the canon software however it ultimately blows the
shot out.
Click to expand...
Blows the shot out? please show an example, I don't understand
dhphoto said:
What software do you recommend?
What lenses inabout this range do you recommend?
Click to expand...
At the cheap end of the market, I'd definitely buy BreezeBrowser
from breezesys.com - THE most valuable piece of software for
digital work, does everything including RAW conversions. If you
already have PS then you're really all set - you might want to
check out fredmiranda.com for PS plugins for sharpening & resizing
  • very good and cheap.
For raw I use Capture One Pro, which I find excellent but expensive.

Lenses: Personally I only buy Canon but that's just me, The sky is
really the limit but 35mm F2 is cheap and useful, 85 1.8 is an
exceptional value really sharp lens and for medium zooms the 70-200
F4 L is really, really good value for an L series lens.

David
Click to expand...
 
Others may have already suggested these (don't have time to read entire thread right now)...
  • Stick with jpeg for a few thousand shots (at least). Learn the camera, ISO effects, etc... The jpeg (large-fine) is actually extremely good on the 20d, and I shoot up to 12x18 with absolutely no jpeg issues at all. This will eliminate all the tricks of the raw processing.
  • Try using additional unsharp-mask (maybe 200%, .6 radius, 1) and see how it looks.
  • Don't use ISO100 for your testing. Use something like ISO400 or even ISO800. There's not much difference between ISO100 and 400, and the noise of ISO800 is astonishingly good. This will give you shutter speeds to eliminate camera shake as an issue, and you'll get used to the extremely low noise (compared with film) of the 20d. Plus you'll start to see the big advantages available to you.
  • Bump up the sharpness to +1 (NOTE that this has NO effect if you're using the raw processor - RAW does all the sharpness during processing, not in the camera). But if you choose to shoot jpeg, bumping to +1 will kick it up a bit - it may be more to your liking initially (I think mine is that way most of the time - it reduces the post-processing required).
Hope these tips help...

--
http://www.pbase.com/stevegrillo , Equipment on profile page
 
David,

I have been checking out the fredmiranda software. I see...these

SI Pro 2 (Stair Interpolation Pro) PC ~ Mac

Canon 20D Resize Pro PC ~ Mac
Works with Elements 1, 2 and 3 - Photoshop 6, 7, CS and CS2

Canon 20D CSpro PC ~ Mac ~ Batch

Do you have any suggestions as to which ...or all?
dhphoto said:
At the cheap end of the market, I'd definitely buy BreezeBrowser
from breezesys.com - THE most valuable piece of software for
digital work, does everything including RAW conversions. If you
already have PS then you're really all set - you might want to
check out fredmiranda.com for PS plugins for sharpening & resizing
  • very good and cheap.
For raw I use Capture One Pro, which I find excellent but expensive.
Click to expand...
 
SI Pro 2 is a general resizer, 20D is specifically for the 20D files, I have SI2 and it works well. I use Intellisharpen II as I have a 20D and a 1D mark II and it does both - all the plugins are worth having, as is an identitiy at Fredmiranda.com, very nice (mainly US) folks there.

By the way to post an image:

Upload your jpeg to pbase, your website or similar. Go to that image and right-click, select properties. Then copy the 'address' in total to your website it will look something like:

ttp: i.pbase.com/u11/dhphoto/upload/41464725.andyhass1_std.jpg

(except I left off the initial 'h' and replaced it with a _ or I would just have posted the photo twice!))

you will then get this:



Hope this helps
GBD said:
David,

I have been checking out the fredmiranda software. I see...these

SI Pro 2 (Stair Interpolation Pro) PC ~ Mac

Canon 20D Resize Pro PC ~ Mac
Works with Elements 1, 2 and 3 - Photoshop 6, 7, CS and CS2

Canon 20D CSpro PC ~ Mac ~ Batch

Do you have any suggestions as to which ...or all?
Click to expand...
 
dhphoto said:
. Then copy the 'address'
in total to your website it will look something like:

ttp: i.pbase.com/u11/dhphoto/upload/41464725.andyhass1_std.jpg
Click to expand...
Hmmm, just re-read that and it should have said:

copy the address to your clipboard and paste it into your message thread, must be the beer, sorry

David
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top