Israel/Palestinian problem explained.

It is interesting how people can react with such hate, racism, greed, etc. in times that affect us all. I have not heard so many vocal attacks (and read about physical ones), racial slurrs, etc. since the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979.

History books are there to be read. It is ashamed that so many would rather label them as trash before they read the title.

btw - wasn't the US supporting Afganistan against the Soviet Union at one time? Didn't the US boycott the summer Olympics over this issue?

Why does a discussion about Israel & Palestine need to be brought into this whole dissaster? The terrorists and those who helping them seem to be the only rational "target" for any response by the US. However, according to many setiments, people want to just start launching crusie missiles at the entire middle east (oh my mistake NOT Israel...) in an effort to make everybody feel better about what has already happened. If the USA went and killed a few million Arab families, would that make everyone feel better???????? For those who have developed a HATRED for Arabs in the last week, what do you need to 100% satisfy your blood lust????

Jerry - I don't think bin Laden wants Manhattan and Long Island. I think he wants US troops out of Saudia Arabia.

Stephen

Stephen60392 said:

Jerry said:

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

This has been hotly contested land for all recorded history.
Perhaps we should return to Roman times when this area was
Christian:

Umayyad caliph, Umar II (717-720), imposed humiliating restrictions
on his non-Muslim subjects that led many to convert to Islam. These
conversions, in addition to a steady tribal flow from the desert,
changed the religious character of the inhabitants of Palestine
from Christian to Muslim. Under the Abbasids the process of
Islamization gained added momentum as a result of further
restrictions imposed on non-Muslims by Harun ar Rashid (786-809)
and more particularly by Al Mutawakkil (847-61).

Then there were Crusades:

In 1100 the Crusaders established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem,
which remained until the famous Muslim general Salah ad Din
(Saladin) defeated them at the decisive Battle of Hattin in 1187.
The Crusaders were not completely evicted from Palestine, however,
until 1291 when they were driven out of Acre. The fourteenth and
fifteenth centuries were a "dark age" for Palestine as a result of
Mamluk misrule and the spread of several epidemics. The Mamluks
were slave-soldiers who established a dynasty that ruled Egypt and
Syria, which included Palestine, from 1250 to 1516.

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks, led by Sultan Selim I, routed the
Mamluks, and Palestine began four centuries under Ottoman
domination. Under the Ottomans, Palestine continued to be linked
administratively to Damascus until 1830, when it was placed under
Sidon, then under Acre, then once again under Damascus.

For the first three centuries of Ottoman rule, Palestine was
relatively insulated from outside influences. At the end of the
eighteenth century, Napoleon's abortive attempt to establish a
Middle East empire led to increased Western involvement in
Palestine. The trend toward Western influence accelerated during
the nine years (1831-40) that the Egyptian viceroy Muhammad Ali and
his son Ibrahim ruled Palestine. The Ottomans returned to power in
1840 with the help of the British, Austrians, and Russians. For the
remainder of the nineteenth century, Palestine, despite the growth
of Christian missionary schools and the establishment of European
consulates, remained a mainly rural, poor but self-sufficient,
introverted society. Demographically its population was
overwhelmingly Arab, mainly Muslim, but with an important Christian
merchant and professional class residing in the cities. The Jewish
population of Palestine before 1880 consisted of fewer than 25,000
people, two-thirds of whom lived in Jerusalem where they made up
half the population (and from 1890 on more than half the
population). These were Orthodox Jews (see Glossary), many of whom
had immigrated to Palestine simply to be buried in the Holy Land,
and who had no real political interest in establishing a Jewish
entity.

I don't think 1948 is a single date of contention.

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Thanks for the support, I am glad that you understood what I meant.

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

From your comments I assume there is some magic year when ownership
of all lands of the world was decided. Please let me know when that
was. I was under the mistaken impression that they have been
changing hands in conflict throughout recorded time.

Is there some implication to your bitter pill pronouncement. Does
that mean you mean the Israelis should just go away?

Peter ( Athiest )

Bryan said:

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.

Jerry said:

hatem tawfik said:

sparkyrwb said:

Thanks for the perspective. That is pretty much the way I had
sized it up. If there is a solution, I believe the Palestinians
will have to move somewhere else

Click to expand...

An excellent perspective and an ingenious solution to the problem,
where have you guys been all these years. I see from this forum
that these views are shared by the vast majority of americans.
The way I see it, prior to 1948 there was something called
Palestine, some people came from Russia and stole this land, now
there is nothing called Palestine.They were robbed of their own
land. and now you say they have to get the hell out.
while we acknowledge the rights of the Sefardi jews ( eastern jews)
to live peacefully among us as they have for the past 2000 years,
we can not accept the notion that descendants of the KHAZAR empire
who have turned into judaism ONLY in the 8th century AD to come
proclaiming rights in a land that was never theirs, just because
europe rejected them. The vast majority of jews in the world now
are not even semites, they are hamites;of turkish origin.

and for those of who of think I am idiot spreading venomous lies,
please read the Book entitled ' the thirteenth tribe' by a jewish
british scholar called arthur Koestler. I am not inventing this,
There is a more recent book suBstantiating the same facts By an
american scholar called Dunlop ( in Columbia University) But I dont
know the name of the book I dont own it.

By the way the first one who spoke about the Khazar ( or Kazar)
empire was Ibn Fadlan. those of who who watch movies a lot will
know that Ibn Fadlan was ' THE THIRTEENTH WARRIOR', But the movie
speaks about a different segment of his life ( doesnt the number
ring a bell)
There is nothing wrong in Belonging to this GREAT empire at all
because they were GREAT fighters, had a thriving civilisation, they
stood up LIKE GREAT MEN against the muslims and the Byzantine
empire for centuries even before conversion to Judaism, and their
capital was a thriving economic centre of the world like NewYork
today until they were swept by Ghengiz Khan, and migrated to Poland
and Russia.
Modern Jews reject these facts or 'lies' if you want to call them
because it voids anti-semitism of its meaning, and strips them of
alleged historical rights in places they dont belong to.
I will not contribute to this particular thread again so as not to
start another war, as this is not my intention.
and by the way these are soley my views and are not the views held
By the majority or even the minority of the muslim world Becuase
unfortunately nobody here knows about Koestler or Dunlop.

Hatem

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jews are probably the most villified people in ALL history. why is this so? they have been accused of everything, from the cause of jesus christ's death to economic sabotage but inspite of everything they have suffered they have persevered and remained.

the arab-israeli problem will not find a solution unless the arabs recognize israel's right to existence and seek a genuine approach to a lasting peace. no amount of historical claims on either side will change the fact that israel exists where it is now and asking the israelites to dismember their country and give it back to the displaced palestinians is like asking water to run uphill or the sun to go around the earth. it simply cannot be done. until the arab countries desist from seeking the destruction of israel there will never be peace in the middle east; irregardless of whether or not the palestinians are given independence and territory. even if they have that, their homeland would simply become another launchpad for attacks against israel. this is surely in the minds of israel's leader, and probably one of the primary reasons why they are so hesitant in their approach to the problem. giving the palestinians even three quarters of israeli land would not solve the problem because the arabs avowed goal is the complete and utter destruction of israel as an independent entity. how do you negotiate that?

Thank you Omaha, I could not have put the words down better.. Great analogy..

omaha said:

jews are probably the most villified people in ALL history. why is
this so? they have been accused of everything, from the cause of
jesus christ's death to economic sabotage but inspite of everything
they have suffered they have persevered and remained.

the arab-israeli problem will not find a solution unless the arabs
recognize israel's right to existence and seek a genuine approach
to a lasting peace. no amount of historical claims on either side
will change the fact that israel exists where it is now and asking
the israelites to dismember their country and give it back to the
displaced palestinians is like asking water to run uphill or the
sun to go around the earth. it simply cannot be done. until the
arab countries desist from seeking the destruction of israel there
will never be peace in the middle east; irregardless of whether or
not the palestinians are given independence and territory. even if
they have that, their homeland would simply become another
launchpad for attacks against israel. this is surely in the minds
of israel's leader, and probably one of the primary reasons why
they are so hesitant in their approach to the problem. giving the
palestinians even three quarters of israeli land would not solve
the problem because the arabs avowed goal is the complete and utter
destruction of israel as an independent entity. how do you
negotiate that?

Click to expand...

sorry and as for the Bible.

I was brought up on it at school but not at home. My parents, Church of England, rightly in my view allowed me to follow the teachings at school and at Sunday School and then make up my own mind.

The Bible, in my childhood was a great guide, and way of teaching right from wrong. It did a good job as I love my fellow man, will do my best to help him in his time of need. I do not cherish my neighbours wife and have never stolen anything in my life.

However - the Bible was written by Man with his normal artistic licence to make the facts fit the book. We are all entitled to out beliefs and having checked out many religions I respect those who believe in each their own. Howvever (2) I believe in none and when you look at how many deaths have been caused in the name of religion, Anti Jewish - Anti Protestant - Ant Catholic - Anti Muslim - ....................... I could go on. I don't really think I am missing much.

I can feel the hatred and anger in a lot of these post and feel that they will remain there for some time to go.

You are all in my thoughts and I have greatest sympathy for all caught up in this current tragedy plus those in the many to yet to come.

Bryan said:

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

From your comments I assume there is some magic year when ownership
of all lands of the world was decided. Please let me know when that
was. I was under the mistaken impression that they have been
changing hands in conflict throughout recorded time.

Is there some implication to your bitter pill pronouncement. Does
that mean you mean the Israelis should just go away?

Peter ( Athiest )

Bryan said:

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.

Jerry said:

hatem tawfik said:

sparkyrwb said:

Thanks for the perspective. That is pretty much the way I had
sized it up. If there is a solution, I believe the Palestinians
will have to move somewhere else

Click to expand...

An excellent perspective and an ingenious solution to the problem,
where have you guys been all these years. I see from this forum
that these views are shared by the vast majority of americans.
The way I see it, prior to 1948 there was something called
Palestine, some people came from Russia and stole this land, now
there is nothing called Palestine.They were robbed of their own
land. and now you say they have to get the hell out.
while we acknowledge the rights of the Sefardi jews ( eastern jews)
to live peacefully among us as they have for the past 2000 years,
we can not accept the notion that descendants of the KHAZAR empire
who have turned into judaism ONLY in the 8th century AD to come
proclaiming rights in a land that was never theirs, just because
europe rejected them. The vast majority of jews in the world now
are not even semites, they are hamites;of turkish origin.

and for those of who of think I am idiot spreading venomous lies,
please read the Book entitled ' the thirteenth tribe' by a jewish
british scholar called arthur Koestler. I am not inventing this,
There is a more recent book suBstantiating the same facts By an
american scholar called Dunlop ( in Columbia University) But I dont
know the name of the book I dont own it.

By the way the first one who spoke about the Khazar ( or Kazar)
empire was Ibn Fadlan. those of who who watch movies a lot will
know that Ibn Fadlan was ' THE THIRTEENTH WARRIOR', But the movie
speaks about a different segment of his life ( doesnt the number
ring a bell)
There is nothing wrong in Belonging to this GREAT empire at all
because they were GREAT fighters, had a thriving civilisation, they
stood up LIKE GREAT MEN against the muslims and the Byzantine
empire for centuries even before conversion to Judaism, and their
capital was a thriving economic centre of the world like NewYork
today until they were swept by Ghengiz Khan, and migrated to Poland
and Russia.
Modern Jews reject these facts or 'lies' if you want to call them
because it voids anti-semitism of its meaning, and strips them of
alleged historical rights in places they dont belong to.
I will not contribute to this particular thread again so as not to
start another war, as this is not my intention.
and by the way these are soley my views and are not the views held
By the majority or even the minority of the muslim world Becuase
unfortunately nobody here knows about Koestler or Dunlop.

Hatem

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Stephen, I was making a joke about Manhatten and Long Island. We are always telling Israel to trade land for peace and it doesn't work. Yes he wants the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia but he also hates the U.S. enough to continue attacks after that. He enjoys what he does!!

Stephen said:

History books are there to be read. It is ashamed that so many
would rather label them as trash before they read the title.

btw - wasn't the US supporting Afganistan against the Soviet Union
at one time? Didn't the US boycott the summer Olympics over this
issue?

Why does a discussion about Israel & Palestine need to be brought
into this whole dissaster? The terrorists and those who helping
them seem to be the only rational "target" for any response by the
US. However, according to many setiments, people want to just
start launching crusie missiles at the entire middle east (oh my
mistake NOT Israel...) in an effort to make everybody feel better
about what has already happened. If the USA went and killed a few
million Arab families, would that make everyone feel better????????
For those who have developed a HATRED for Arabs in the last week,
what do you need to 100% satisfy your blood lust????

Jerry - I don't think bin Laden wants Manhattan and Long Island.
I think he wants US troops out of Saudia Arabia.

Stephen

Stephen60392 said:

Jerry said:

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

This has been hotly contested land for all recorded history.
Perhaps we should return to Roman times when this area was
Christian:

Umayyad caliph, Umar II (717-720), imposed humiliating restrictions
on his non-Muslim subjects that led many to convert to Islam. These
conversions, in addition to a steady tribal flow from the desert,
changed the religious character of the inhabitants of Palestine
from Christian to Muslim. Under the Abbasids the process of
Islamization gained added momentum as a result of further
restrictions imposed on non-Muslims by Harun ar Rashid (786-809)
and more particularly by Al Mutawakkil (847-61).

Then there were Crusades:

In 1100 the Crusaders established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem,
which remained until the famous Muslim general Salah ad Din
(Saladin) defeated them at the decisive Battle of Hattin in 1187.
The Crusaders were not completely evicted from Palestine, however,
until 1291 when they were driven out of Acre. The fourteenth and
fifteenth centuries were a "dark age" for Palestine as a result of
Mamluk misrule and the spread of several epidemics. The Mamluks
were slave-soldiers who established a dynasty that ruled Egypt and
Syria, which included Palestine, from 1250 to 1516.

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks, led by Sultan Selim I, routed the
Mamluks, and Palestine began four centuries under Ottoman
domination. Under the Ottomans, Palestine continued to be linked
administratively to Damascus until 1830, when it was placed under
Sidon, then under Acre, then once again under Damascus.

For the first three centuries of Ottoman rule, Palestine was
relatively insulated from outside influences. At the end of the
eighteenth century, Napoleon's abortive attempt to establish a
Middle East empire led to increased Western involvement in
Palestine. The trend toward Western influence accelerated during
the nine years (1831-40) that the Egyptian viceroy Muhammad Ali and
his son Ibrahim ruled Palestine. The Ottomans returned to power in
1840 with the help of the British, Austrians, and Russians. For the
remainder of the nineteenth century, Palestine, despite the growth
of Christian missionary schools and the establishment of European
consulates, remained a mainly rural, poor but self-sufficient,
introverted society. Demographically its population was
overwhelmingly Arab, mainly Muslim, but with an important Christian
merchant and professional class residing in the cities. The Jewish
population of Palestine before 1880 consisted of fewer than 25,000
people, two-thirds of whom lived in Jerusalem where they made up
half the population (and from 1890 on more than half the
population). These were Orthodox Jews (see Glossary), many of whom
had immigrated to Palestine simply to be buried in the Holy Land,
and who had no real political interest in establishing a Jewish
entity.

I don't think 1948 is a single date of contention.

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Marcel-Etienne said:

This can easily be read the other way round (as long as the Israeli
troops continue..., as long as the the jewish settlers in the
occupied territories continue... and so on. No real solution in
such an approach)
And throwing rocks and gasoline bombs at very well equiped military
troops occupying a territory looks more like an act of desperation
and courage than anything else. Remember that Palestinians have
been confined to refugees camps, shanty towns and the poorest parts
of the land for quite a long time...

Click to expand...

If I were occupied, I would see no problem being a guerilla warrior, sniping at soldiers. Bombing thier equipment etc... I can respect that. But sending thier own children out to do it, KNOWING they will die and that will invoke sympathy and weaken the enemies resolve is just plain SICK.

You fail to answer the suicide bombings. Sometimes you seem very reasoned, but sometimes it comes across that you condone the people who seek the greatest density of civilians (families eating lunch in cafes) during lunch hour and then blow them up. I have no tolerance for these acts, there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION. Its clearly politically motivated horror, by people who have no humanity. They simply believe that if they are not dis-membering men, women and children on a weekly basis they will fall off the worlds radar.

I would have more sympathy for the Palestinian cause if they didn't act as if they utterly lacked any shred of HUMANITY.

Peter

I really could care less about establishing ties to biblical times. As I think I have made clear many times. Both sides are their and neither is leaving. Neither of the peoples have a home anywhere else. I think we have to deal with the situation as it is rather than arguing who has historical legitamacy. Something which is largely a joke in most of the world.

I don't see much good faith on either side for sitting down and negotiating realistic borders. Palestine wants all the occupied land back, Israel would most likely like to keep it all. The only realistic position is somewhere between the two. A position with both sides find untenable.

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

From your comments I assume there is some magic year when ownership
of all lands of the world was decided. Please let me know when that
was. I was under the mistaken impression that they have been
changing hands in conflict throughout recorded time.

Is there some implication to your bitter pill pronouncement. Does
that mean you mean the Israelis should just go away?

Peter ( Athiest )

Bryan said:

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.

Jerry said:

hatem tawfik said:

sparkyrwb said:

Thanks for the perspective. That is pretty much the way I had
sized it up. If there is a solution, I believe the Palestinians
will have to move somewhere else

Click to expand...

An excellent perspective and an ingenious solution to the problem,
where have you guys been all these years. I see from this forum
that these views are shared by the vast majority of americans.
The way I see it, prior to 1948 there was something called
Palestine, some people came from Russia and stole this land, now
there is nothing called Palestine.They were robbed of their own
land. and now you say they have to get the hell out.
while we acknowledge the rights of the Sefardi jews ( eastern jews)
to live peacefully among us as they have for the past 2000 years,
we can not accept the notion that descendants of the KHAZAR empire
who have turned into judaism ONLY in the 8th century AD to come
proclaiming rights in a land that was never theirs, just because
europe rejected them. The vast majority of jews in the world now
are not even semites, they are hamites;of turkish origin.

and for those of who of think I am idiot spreading venomous lies,
please read the Book entitled ' the thirteenth tribe' by a jewish
british scholar called arthur Koestler. I am not inventing this,
There is a more recent book suBstantiating the same facts By an
american scholar called Dunlop ( in Columbia University) But I dont
know the name of the book I dont own it.

By the way the first one who spoke about the Khazar ( or Kazar)
empire was Ibn Fadlan. those of who who watch movies a lot will
know that Ibn Fadlan was ' THE THIRTEENTH WARRIOR', But the movie
speaks about a different segment of his life ( doesnt the number
ring a bell)
There is nothing wrong in Belonging to this GREAT empire at all
because they were GREAT fighters, had a thriving civilisation, they
stood up LIKE GREAT MEN against the muslims and the Byzantine
empire for centuries even before conversion to Judaism, and their
capital was a thriving economic centre of the world like NewYork
today until they were swept by Ghengiz Khan, and migrated to Poland
and Russia.
Modern Jews reject these facts or 'lies' if you want to call them
because it voids anti-semitism of its meaning, and strips them of
alleged historical rights in places they dont belong to.
I will not contribute to this particular thread again so as not to
start another war, as this is not my intention.
and by the way these are soley my views and are not the views held
By the majority or even the minority of the muslim world Becuase
unfortunately nobody here knows about Koestler or Dunlop.

Hatem

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Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Peter, not only I agree with you completely, but as an Israely, i tell you

that if not the terror against civillians, and the wars that our neighbours have started with us, Palestinians would have their homeland long time ago.

Please understand, most Israelis do believe that palestinians have the right for a state, all we want is to ensure that we can have one too, one where we can be safe.

Peter G said:

Marcel-Etienne said:

This can easily be read the other way round (as long as the Israeli
troops continue..., as long as the the jewish settlers in the
occupied territories continue... and so on. No real solution in
such an approach)
And throwing rocks and gasoline bombs at very well equiped military
troops occupying a territory looks more like an act of desperation
and courage than anything else. Remember that Palestinians have
been confined to refugees camps, shanty towns and the poorest parts
of the land for quite a long time...

Click to expand...

If I were occupied, I would see no problem being a guerilla
warrior, sniping at soldiers. Bombing thier equipment etc... I can
respect that. But sending thier own children out to do it, KNOWING
they will die and that will invoke sympathy and weaken the enemies
resolve is just plain SICK.

You fail to answer the suicide bombings. Sometimes you seem very
reasoned, but sometimes it comes across that you condone the people
who seek the greatest density of civilians (families eating lunch
in cafes) during lunch hour and then blow them up. I have no
tolerance for these acts, there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION. Its
clearly politically motivated horror, by people who have no
humanity. They simply believe that if they are not dis-membering
men, women and children on a weekly basis they will fall off the
worlds radar.

I would have more sympathy for the Palestinian cause if they didn't
act as if they utterly lacked any shred of HUMANITY.

Peter

Click to expand...

Yes, 'both sides are here and neither is leaving'. This simple truth has to be the base of any agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. If I insist on giving some information concerning the past, it is because it has way too often been deformed in order to justify contemporary actions. It still works as a permanent myth in Israel, and you would be amazed at the amount of people I met who were convinced that the Jews had a special right to the Holy Land because they had been the first inhabitants, etc. I don't want that this kind of stuff be used against the - albeit extremely difficult - query for a rational solution.

I don't think most Palestinians want 'all the land back' any longer, they are much more realistic than you seem to believe. I don't know if you read French (maybe it has been translated), but in the 'Encyclopaedia Universalis' there is a detailed and brilliant study of the Palestinians by the French scholar Olivier CARRE (one of the leading specialists in this matter). It is worth a very careful reading, and shows how much change there has been in this matter over the last 30 years...

Peter G said:

I don't see much good faith on either side for sitting down and
negotiating realistic borders. Palestine wants all the occupied
land back, Israel would most likely like to keep it all. The only
realistic position is somewhere between the two. A position with
both sides find untenable.

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

From your comments I assume there is some magic year when ownership
of all lands of the world was decided. Please let me know when that
was. I was under the mistaken impression that they have been
changing hands in conflict throughout recorded time.

Is there some implication to your bitter pill pronouncement. Does
that mean you mean the Israelis should just go away?

Peter ( Athiest )

Bryan said:

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.

Jerry said:

hatem tawfik said:

sparkyrwb said:

Thanks for the perspective. That is pretty much the way I had
sized it up. If there is a solution, I believe the Palestinians
will have to move somewhere else

Click to expand...

An excellent perspective and an ingenious solution to the problem,
where have you guys been all these years. I see from this forum
that these views are shared by the vast majority of americans.
The way I see it, prior to 1948 there was something called
Palestine, some people came from Russia and stole this land, now
there is nothing called Palestine.They were robbed of their own
land. and now you say they have to get the hell out.
while we acknowledge the rights of the Sefardi jews ( eastern jews)
to live peacefully among us as they have for the past 2000 years,
we can not accept the notion that descendants of the KHAZAR empire
who have turned into judaism ONLY in the 8th century AD to come
proclaiming rights in a land that was never theirs, just because
europe rejected them. The vast majority of jews in the world now
are not even semites, they are hamites;of turkish origin.

and for those of who of think I am idiot spreading venomous lies,
please read the Book entitled ' the thirteenth tribe' by a jewish
british scholar called arthur Koestler. I am not inventing this,
There is a more recent book suBstantiating the same facts By an
american scholar called Dunlop ( in Columbia University) But I dont
know the name of the book I dont own it.

By the way the first one who spoke about the Khazar ( or Kazar)
empire was Ibn Fadlan. those of who who watch movies a lot will
know that Ibn Fadlan was ' THE THIRTEENTH WARRIOR', But the movie
speaks about a different segment of his life ( doesnt the number
ring a bell)
There is nothing wrong in Belonging to this GREAT empire at all
because they were GREAT fighters, had a thriving civilisation, they
stood up LIKE GREAT MEN against the muslims and the Byzantine
empire for centuries even before conversion to Judaism, and their
capital was a thriving economic centre of the world like NewYork
today until they were swept by Ghengiz Khan, and migrated to Poland
and Russia.
Modern Jews reject these facts or 'lies' if you want to call them
because it voids anti-semitism of its meaning, and strips them of
alleged historical rights in places they dont belong to.
I will not contribute to this particular thread again so as not to
start another war, as this is not my intention.
and by the way these are soley my views and are not the views held
By the majority or even the minority of the muslim world Becuase
unfortunately nobody here knows about Koestler or Dunlop.

Hatem

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Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

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here i have found a link which describes the palestinian refugee dillema in detail, which a lot of people would probably dismiss as hogwash, being culled from the website of the jewish virtual library:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

please feel free to contest any point or issue discussed in this article, but as it appears from this website, the palestinian problem was exacerbated by other arab countries who encouraged palestinian emigration but subsequently refused to aid the plight of their fellow arabs.

by military dictum, israel has the right to the territories it conquered and subsequently occupied. arab countres waged war in behalf of their palestinian neighbors and lost. being open to jewish resettlement and eventual declaration of an independent palestinian state to me appears as concessions for peace, but palestinian and arab demands for the TOTAL dismemberment of the state of israel is simply, by all common sense and logic to israelis and fair-minded individuals in the light of the existing situation, unacceptable, and to put it lightly, in the realm of fairy tale. no country would ever agree to that.

the palestinians have a right to their own country. even israel concedes to that. but they have to work within the limits imposed by the present world situation and not base their demands on historical claims, which at this point of time simply would not wash.

All i have to say about this that it's not true.
Jews were every so often prosecuted and murdered in arab countries.

Oren.

hatem tawfik said:

hatem tawfik said:

'Practically all the Arab nations' is an oversimplification, as
quite a good number of them only paid lip service to the
Palestinian cause. And after the Kippur war things have changed
quite dramatically in this respect. Most neighbouring arabic
countries do not want war with Israel at any cost, and the
often-heard israeli claims sound hollow there (it is excellent
propaganda, but it is not supported by facts, since peace was
reached with Egypt and Jordania.

Click to expand...

Marcel
This is a very accurate interpretation of the real situation among
egyptians at least, NO BODY, I mean NO BODY at all here wants war
with Israel any more, and despite scattered anti-israel sentiment
that surfaces every once in a while, we are tired of war, and we
think we can live in peace with them, after all, Jews have lived a
very peaceful life until 1948 throughout the arab world ( at least
in Egypt), and for those of you who need a reference to my
allegations, please read the bOOK
' The manners and customs of modern Egyptians" by Edward Williiam
Lane, page 552. Though it is shameful to admit, But he claims that
Jews are much better treated by egyptian muslims than are copts (
egyptian chrisitians) and surprisinlgly better than in many parts
of europe ( Book published in 1908; I have the original). Mind you,
president Sadat is curretnly more popular than ever.

Click to expand...

Peter, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough (remember, English is not my mother tongue) or there was some kind of misunderstanding, but what you have written certainly requires some clarifications from my part. I would be very sorry if you really believed that there is real ground for disagreement here, as I have often appreciated your posts.

1) I DO NOT condone the kind of terrorism you are describing, of course not. But there is a difference between these terrible and unacceptable acts of violence and the fight against Israeli occupation troops and colonists. Yes, they are throwing stones and gasoline bombs at them, but in any other part of the world this would be called legitimate resistance. They are using the weapons they have at hand, and for children who spend most time in the streets because they have very little access to education, well it's very tempting to join the 'game' (did you condemn children of Soweto some years ago? They were very active though)... But this is not on the par with suicide bombings in Israel itself, something I clearly hate (saying that we have to understand the kind of desperation they are rooted in, doesn't mean that we have to approve it).

2) There is great confusion here in the Western countries concerning the PLO and other Palestinian movements, and this is partly due to the fact that there has always been a very active and efficient pro-Israel propaganda, while the voice of the Palestinians has only been heard quite recently. Arafat, for instance, is definitely not the monster some people still believe he is, and the PLO is very far from being an extremist party (even Hamas is not as extremist as some people believe). Too often the Palestinians are considered here as a whole block, so it is very easy to put the blame on the PLO and Arafat every time a new tragedy happens: again, good propaganda but it just isn't true (and the Israeli government knows it very well, this is the reason why behind the curtains they keep negotiating with Arafat...).

3) The kind of war Palestinians are fighting against Israel is not the usual type of resistance, because geographical and political conditions are very different. The occupied territories are a sort of big concentration camp; they can easily be sealed off, they are controlled by one of the best armies in the world and they are speckled with strongly defended colonies. Efficient action there is extremely difficult, hence the temptation for harsh-liners to use very brutal methods in other areas (something I hate as much as you do).

4) I cannot agree with what you said about Palestinians in general. I have personally met some, I have a brother who currently lives in Egypt, is a specialist in the modern arab world and has far more Palestinian AND Israeli friends than you and me put together: such a wild generalization about a so-called lack of humanity only proves that here in the Western World most people still have a strong bias in favour of Israel no matter what. I think that you will see my point here.

5) Too many people are uttering wild statements without any shred of real knowledge (I do not mean you, of course, but have you read some posts? They really scare the hell out of me). There are excellent books on the subject, but who reads them? I mentioned an article from the Encyclopaedia Universalis concerning the Palestinians in another thread (unfortunately in French, unless it was translated), but I strongly doubt if anybody knew about it in this forum (hope I'm wrong; maybe I shall try with a few books written in English, but I have to check). Knowledge based on the media or Internet is far from reliable, and I have more trust in true historians, sociologists and their likes...

I hope this long explanation will help making matters clear between us. I would be very sorry if it wasn't the case.
Marcel-Etienne ?)

Peter G said:

Marcel-Etienne said:

This can easily be read the other way round (as long as the Israeli
troops continue..., as long as the the jewish settlers in the
occupied territories continue... and so on. No real solution in
such an approach)
And throwing rocks and gasoline bombs at very well equiped military
troops occupying a territory looks more like an act of desperation
and courage than anything else. Remember that Palestinians have
been confined to refugees camps, shanty towns and the poorest parts
of the land for quite a long time...

Click to expand...

If I were occupied, I would see no problem being a guerilla
warrior, sniping at soldiers. Bombing thier equipment etc... I can
respect that. But sending thier own children out to do it, KNOWING
they will die and that will invoke sympathy and weaken the enemies
resolve is just plain SICK.

You fail to answer the suicide bombings. Sometimes you seem very
reasoned, but sometimes it comes across that you condone the people
who seek the greatest density of civilians (families eating lunch
in cafes) during lunch hour and then blow them up. I have no
tolerance for these acts, there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION. Its
clearly politically motivated horror, by people who have no
humanity. They simply believe that if they are not dis-membering
men, women and children on a weekly basis they will fall off the
worlds radar.

I would have more sympathy for the Palestinian cause if they didn't
act as if they utterly lacked any shred of HUMANITY.

Peter

Click to expand...

This is the beginning of the understanding you seem to desire
Marcel. Most of the world does not see the Palestine movement
to be the courageous actions of an oppressed people. This may
be part of the great misunderstanding. The setting of fires,
throwing rocks at armed troops, throwing gasoline bombs,
suicide bombngs, and the steadfast refusal to accept any
attempt to compromise, is seen as the actions of a people
that have degraded into little less than animals. Animals that
send send their children to die, and teach them that it is ok.
Last weeks dancing in the street is another example. The
rest of the world fully understands the Israeli wish for security.
They watch, and Israel lets up on the border restrictions. Bang,
several days later, a suicide bomber kills a bunch of people.
That same suicide bomber was let across the border so that they
could work and make things better for their family. How many
times do you think the world needed to see this before we
came to the conclusion that opening the border to them at
all is not something we would do. The Israeli's are seen
as more patient and benevolent in many ways than many of us
would be in the same situation. Their continued attacks, the
attacks by their own supposed police force, the words they say,
all spell out CRAZY to the rest of us, not admirable, not
courageous, not freedom fighter by a long shot. They need to
understand that every attack they make works against them,
not for them as some seem to be saying. Yes, we want them
to have schooling for their children, food for their families, and
as much wealth as their personal legal efforts can accumulate.
No one supports their continued terrorist attacks on Israel
today. The disgusting violence on the news day after day just
makes people start to wonder when the Israeli's are going to
make a serious attack to stop it.

omaha said:

here i have found a link which describes the palestinian refugee
dillema in detail, which a lot of people would probably dismiss as
hogwash, being culled from the website of the jewish virtual
library:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

please feel free to contest any point or issue discussed in this
article, but as it appears from this website, the palestinian
problem was exacerbated by other arab countries who encouraged
palestinian emigration but subsequently refused to aid the plight
of their fellow arabs.

by military dictum, israel has the right to the territories it
conquered and subsequently occupied. arab countres waged war in
behalf of their palestinian neighbors and lost. being open to
jewish resettlement and eventual declaration of an independent
palestinian state to me appears as concessions for peace, but
palestinian and arab demands for the TOTAL dismemberment of the
state of israel is simply, by all common sense and logic to
israelis and fair-minded individuals in the light of the existing
situation, unacceptable, and to put it lightly, in the realm of
fairy tale. no country would ever agree to that.

the palestinians have a right to their own country. even israel
concedes to that. but they have to work within the limits imposed
by the present world situation and not base their demands on
historical claims, which at this point of time simply would not
wash.

Click to expand...

Marcel-Etienne wrote:
They are using the weapons

Marcel-Etienne56998 said:

they have at hand, and for children who spend most time in the
streets because they have very little access to education, well
it's very tempting to join the 'game'

Click to expand...

Sorry I don't buy this. I do believe they are clearly taught to hate from the time they are very young. I still believe they are using their children as weapons for political reasons. CNN was just replaying the Dancing in the streets segment. I have also read several accounts that this was widespread and continued into the night, that journalists were arrrested and threatened with death if they reported this. I am sure you will contend it must be the BBC being controlled by the grand Jewish conspirancy. Later Arafat asked his people not to celebrate openly and arranged a press conference showing him giving blood for the Americans. It was so self serving it made me ill. Just observing Arafats actions in the present makes me distrust him.

Marcel-Etienne56998 said:

2) There is great confusion here in the Western countries
concerning the PLO and other Palestinian movements, and this is
partly due to the fact that there has always been a very active and
efficient pro-Israel propaganda, while the voice of the

Click to expand...

Yes the grand Zionist conspiracy no doubt. I guess its tough to get good propaganda gloating about the latest victory of blowing up civilians at a bus-stop.

Marcel-Etienne56998 said:

Palestinians has only been heard quite recently. Arafat, for
instance, is definitely not the monster some people still believe
he is, and the PLO is very far from being an extremist party (even
Hamas is not as extremist as some people believe). Too often the

Click to expand...

The suicide bombers leave behind tapes and are celebrated as heros. These are Monster IMO. I have no ears to even listen to the reasons behind terror. I have to wonder what the Clerics are teaching them, since we are told that this kind of thing is intolerable to Islam, yet there is an unending supply of bombers who think they are going to paradise. I have to wonder how much Islam has been perverted in Palestine.

Marcel-Etienne56998 said:

4) I cannot agree with what you said about Palestinians in general.
I have personally met some, I have a brother who currently lives in
Egypt, is a specialist in the modern arab world and has far more
Palestinian AND Israeli friends than you and me put together: such
a wild generalization about a so-called lack of humanity only
proves that here in the Western World most people still have a
strong bias in favour of Israel no matter what. I think that you
will see my point here.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately as I have been educating myself more on these issues I only become more hardened against Palestine as a whole. I have seen NO EVIDENCE that there is any serious evidence of internal attempts to put a stop to the suicide bombings. I only see evidence that it is widely supported.

Further as I read the most of the history, I believe I would easily have made many of the same decisions as the Israelis, but I can't say the same of the Arab states in the various conflicts. I think the sympathies of the western world are clearly with Israel and they are only being more solidified in the current climate.

My bottom line is that there can be no negotiation with terrosts or those that support them.

Peter

Marcel-Etienne56998 said:

2) There is great confusion here in the Western countries
concerning the PLO and other Palestinian movements, and this is
partly due to the fact that there has always been a very active and
efficient pro-Israel propaganda,

Click to expand...

It is time to clear up some misunderstandings here. There is not great confusion in the Western countries. I can particularly vouch for the U.S. as I am a citizen of same.

There is a tremendous amount of media that is constantly being broadcast on public television that is quite accurate. All of you detailed disclosures have been disclosed publically. Not just Israeli progaganda. That's where I learned of the truth about Palastine. I and many other citizens of the country of the U.S. know far more than is assumed.

It's time for others throughout the world to understand that we are not ignorant of details about Palistinian movements or movements in Outer Mongolia for that matter.

It is time for the citizens of the United States to be looked at and respected. The constant slander that we are ignorant, war mongers, imperialists is just the same as citizens of the U.S. slinging slanderous untruths at all Arabs.

The assumption that Americans are languishing off the fat of the land and sweat of others is essentially false and a terrible slander. Just as a member of a Mongolian Tribe must have his hut, horses and other essentials that they constantly struggle for, American citizens are bridled with their needs. The stress level in the U.S. is tremendous. The quality of life, while not as bad as many other countries is not healthy for the majority of it's citizens. I feel that the standard mark on tombstones was invented for Americans. Rest in Peace. Many have left and moved to other places where a saner level of existence can allow them some peace.

It's a paycheck to paycheck existence. Many working two or three jobs with no time for family or leisurely activities.

The 100 mile per hour pace doesn't allow the majority of citizens here in the U.S. any free time to study Cultural Anthropology. In addition, the Russians were right. We're capitalists. If your born here you're constantly in a race to get enough money to survive. The large homeless population attests to that.

We can vote for who we wish. Each of us know there isn't much choice. Brand X or Brand Y both work for the powerful corporations and will only do a few minor token moves to help the masses.

The farmer in Nebraska or the auto mechanic in Illinois is not creating International policies. Those types of people are the ones who must shoulder arms and risk their lives when we are attacked. They are too busy trying to keep their heads above water financially to care a great deal about the complex political situations in Afghanistan or Outer Mongolia. When those types of people who must fight the wars are wrenched from their families by circumstances beyond their control the enemy will truly know the definition of "unhappy camper".

Yes, even the street sweeper watches public television and most all people know in great detail the full plight of the Palastinians. Each and every day we here in the U.S. shake our heads at the stupidity that we are quite aware of. When it is brought to our shores or territory, the head shaking stops.

We do know what's going on. We do have a few mickey mouse schools. Stanford, UCB, MIT, .......the list is long. I know, I've attended a few myself. It's been awhile, but I still remember the hours and days and months of reading I did in classes such as International Relations. I distinctly remember zero Israeli propoganda.

History Lesson

When the Roman Empire conquered biblical Israel, they spread the Jews out across their empire. That is how Jewish people ended up in Europe. The Greeks did the same. So did the Babylonians (except they sent the Jew to Babylon). So, before you run off on a rant again, open a history book and educate yourself.

Guy

PS: That British Scholar who wrote the book the 13th Tribe...He was a drunk and he died in a whore house...not much for credibility.

hatem tawfik said:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394402847/qid=1000588721/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/103-5945143-9570203

PS: I dont see any semites in the middle east with yellow hair, the
vast majority of my jewish friends look more like europeans than
arabs. Havent you ever thought of that

hatem tawfik said:

Jerry wrote:
Do you really expect people to believe
this garbage....

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

the occupied territories are not the occupied territories. They are rightfully Israel's as much as New york and Chicago are the United States. they were won by War. Not wars Israelhas started may I add, Wars that Israel was merely defending itself. By your logic, we should give the western Us back to Mexico and the rest to the Native Americans. Israel should not give anything back. they should deport any groups of people who cause civil unrest in the nation. If that means throwing every Palestinian out of the country than so be it. How come no arab country is willing to take these people in? The PLo got kicked out of every surrounding country.

Guy

Marcel-Etienne said:

Peter G said:

This has been hotly contested land for all recorded history.
Perhaps we should return to Roman times when this area was
Christian:

Umayyad caliph, Umar II (717-720), imposed humiliating restrictions
on his non-Muslim subjects that led many to convert to Islam. These
conversions, in addition to a steady tribal flow from the desert,
changed the religious character of the inhabitants of Palestine
from Christian to Muslim. Under the Abbasids the process of
Islamization gained added momentum as a result of further
restrictions imposed on non-Muslims by Harun ar Rashid (786-809)
and more particularly by Al Mutawakkil (847-61).

Then there were Crusades:

In 1100 the Crusaders established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem,
which remained until the famous Muslim general Salah ad Din
(Saladin) defeated them at the decisive Battle of Hattin in 1187.
The Crusaders were not completely evicted from Palestine, however,
until 1291 when they were driven out of Acre. The fourteenth and
fifteenth centuries were a "dark age" for Palestine as a result of
Mamluk misrule and the spread of several epidemics. The Mamluks
were slave-soldiers who established a dynasty that ruled Egypt and
Syria, which included Palestine, from 1250 to 1516.

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks, led by Sultan Selim I, routed the
Mamluks, and Palestine began four centuries under Ottoman
domination. Under the Ottomans, Palestine continued to be linked
administratively to Damascus until 1830, when it was placed under
Sidon, then under Acre, then once again under Damascus.

For the first three centuries of Ottoman rule, Palestine was
relatively insulated from outside influences. At the end of the
eighteenth century, Napoleon's abortive attempt to establish a
Middle East empire led to increased Western involvement in
Palestine. The trend toward Western influence accelerated during
the nine years (1831-40) that the Egyptian viceroy Muhammad Ali and
his son Ibrahim ruled Palestine. The Ottomans returned to power in
1840 with the help of the British, Austrians, and Russians. For the
remainder of the nineteenth century, Palestine, despite the growth
of Christian missionary schools and the establishment of European
consulates, remained a mainly rural, poor but self-sufficient,
introverted society. Demographically its population was
overwhelmingly Arab, mainly Muslim, but with an important Christian
merchant and professional class residing in the cities. The Jewish
population of Palestine before 1880 consisted of fewer than 25,000
people, two-thirds of whom lived in Jerusalem where they made up
half the population (and from 1890 on more than half the
population). These were Orthodox Jews (see Glossary), many of whom
had immigrated to Palestine simply to be buried in the Holy Land,
and who had no real political interest in establishing a Jewish
entity.

I don't think 1948 is a single date of contention.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi Rob,

Well i don't know,

I know that i've been talking to common americans and they seem they dont know the facts, and i dont blame them.

Even more i've been talking to some american jews and i was amazed at thier opinions (which could only be from getting false information)

Oren.

P.S a really great resource to why there is a misinformation among people could be explained here:

http://aish.com/jewishissues/

You can see the media objectivity section.

Rob Patterson said:

Member said:

2) There is great confusion here in the Western countries
concerning the PLO and other Palestinian movements, and this is
partly due to the fact that there has always been a very active and
efficient pro-Israel propaganda,

Click to expand...

It is time to clear up some misunderstandings here. There is not
great confusion in the Western countries. I can particularly vouch
for the U.S. as I am a citizen of same.
There is a tremendous amount of media that is constantly being
broadcast on public television that is quite accurate. All of you
detailed disclosures have been disclosed publically. Not just
Israeli progaganda. That's where I learned of the truth about
Palastine. I and many other citizens of the country of the U.S.
know far more than is assumed.
It's time for others throughout the world to understand that we are
not ignorant of details about Palistinian movements or movements in
Outer Mongolia for that matter.
It is time for the citizens of the United States to be looked at
and respected. The constant slander that we are ignorant, war
mongers, imperialists is just the same as citizens of the U.S.
slinging slanderous untruths at all Arabs.
The assumption that Americans are languishing off the fat of the
land and sweat of others is essentially false and a terrible
slander. Just as a member of a Mongolian Tribe must have his hut,
horses and other essentials that they constantly struggle for,
American citizens are bridled with their needs. The stress level in
the U.S. is tremendous. The quality of life, while not as bad as
many other countries is not healthy for the majority of it's
citizens. I feel that the standard mark on tombstones was invented
for Americans. Rest in Peace. Many have left and moved to other
places where a saner level of existence can allow them some peace.
It's a paycheck to paycheck existence. Many working two or three
jobs with no time for family or leisurely activities.
The 100 mile per hour pace doesn't allow the majority of citizens
here in the U.S. any free time to study Cultural Anthropology. In
addition, the Russians were right. We're capitalists. If your born
here you're constantly in a race to get enough money to survive.
The large homeless population attests to that.
We can vote for who we wish. Each of us know there isn't much
choice. Brand X or Brand Y both work for the powerful corporations
and will only do a few minor token moves to help the masses.
The farmer in Nebraska or the auto mechanic in Illinois is not
creating International policies. Those types of people are the ones
who must shoulder arms and risk their lives when we are attacked.
They are too busy trying to keep their heads above water
financially to care a great deal about the complex political
situations in Afghanistan or Outer Mongolia. When those types of
people who must fight the wars are wrenched from their families by
circumstances beyond their control the enemy will truly know the
definition of "unhappy camper".
Yes, even the street sweeper watches public television and most all
people know in great detail the full plight of the Palastinians.
Each and every day we here in the U.S. shake our heads at the
stupidity that we are quite aware of. When it is brought to our
shores or territory, the head shaking stops.
We do know what's going on. We do have a few mickey mouse schools.
Stanford, UCB, MIT, .......the list is long. I know, I've attended
a few myself. It's been awhile, but I still remember the hours and
days and months of reading I did in classes such as International
Relations. I distinctly remember zero Israeli propoganda.

Click to expand...

Actually, the land the palestinians got was not barren at all. they had parts of the Jordan valley and river which is a great water supply. Furthermore, Jordan and Syria controlled Israels water supply. Not that all this mattered because the arabs got greedy and waged war on Israel less than 24 hours after they're independence. Israel conquered some land from them and won the war. These wars started by the arabs continued in 56 and 67 where israel won lots of land. 73 was the same story. You see, the only people that screwed the palestinians where the palestinians and they're arab brethren who wont even give them refuge.

Also, to set the record straight, not once in the Koran is Jerusalem mentioned. I know arab muslims who attestt to this too. Not once. Not once when Jerusalem was under Jordaninan control did a foreign leader from another arab country visit it. So holy to Islam huh?

Jerusalem is mention 67 times in the Jewish Torah.

67-none

Guy

Rob Patterson said:

There used to be a news commentator. Sorry to say, I can't remember
his name. Suffice to say that he would announce and event that
occured in the world recently and then say ......"and now the rest
of the story".
I'm not gonna get into a complete disertation on the
Jewish/Palestinian story. Much of it I've forgotton. My mother's
side of the family is Jewish and they're great relatives. So
prejudice against Jewish people is not a factor in what I'm about
to say.
The land that the Palestinians received was almost completely
uninabitable. It had only a meager water supply.
There was an "Ox-Bow" incident that occured where Jewish vigilantes
attacked and took that meager water supply. They were not supported
by the Israeli government. In fact they were jailed by Israel and
tried and convicted. However, the meager water supply was not
returned.
You couldn't grow a damned dandelion on the waterless land the
Palestinians were stuck with.
A large number of the Palestinians saw the fruitlessness of
remaining. Many left. Quite a few ended up in Lebanon. A civil war
ensued. The Palestinians who weren't involved were told they had to
leave. Politics. Won't elaborate. Complete info is available. Do a
search.
The Palestinians have received a complete screwing almost every
step of the way.
I'll tell you what. If I'd been treated as badly as they had with
no hope to survive in a rock hard waterless soil, I'd try to find a
way out. Otherwise, I'd pick up a rifle and start shooting. I
wouldn't start bombing innocent civilians. Then again one never
knows. Ten years on a rock with a bit of token water dealt out by
people who stole it to begin with? No shelter? Crap for food?
Conditions like that can warp a persons mind. It obviously has done
so to many.
We really need to look more completely at the countries we are
going into. Understanding the enemy is the first step in dealing
with them.
It's a complicated situation that I don't think will ever be
completely solved.

Click to expand...