OT: Nikon D2 forum is surreal

I dont think so, it will just chomp the centre out of the image, and you'll no longer have a circle in the middle, so it would no longer be a circular fisheye :)

Other than that, I agree with most of what you say, except will Nikon stop the slide?

Still no D200...
Still no FF

By the time the D200 comes out, Nikon will have released the new 20D AND the replacement for the 5D ;)

Daniel.
 
Slipping behind?

Nikon has superior AF, a superior flash system, many superior lenses...
I use to love Nikon but how can anybody say that they are keeping
up with Canon? Its just a simple fact that they are slipping behind
even faster then before.
 
I just can't get into Canon glass. The only lenses I've seen that
even slightly tickles my fancy is the 35mm 1.4 and 85 1.8. But
even those are a far cry from the 28 and 85 1.4 Nikkors. (the
Canon 24 is soft wide open)
Canon makes great L series lenses. Non of my clients can tell the difference between sharpness of a Nikon ED and a Canon L.
As far as build quality, Canon and Nikon both do an equally fine
job on thier pro lenses. Except Nikons focus and zoom the right
direction. Oh and I can still use that 13mm 5.6 and 6mm Fisheye on
my D2X BTW.
Nikon lens build quality has gone downhill. It is inexcusable to have zoom ring grips come off for $1000 and up lenses and they should not squeak.
One final note, the D2X, 5D and 1DsMII all resolve to about 6x7cm
film. This means that just five years ago what we were shooting on
Blads and Rz's, we can now do with our DSLRs. In less than three
years the sensor technology will have plateued, the pro cameras
just do not need more than 22MPs for any reason and dealing with
those files will be awful. Noise levels will be controlled and it
will no longer be the Canon how low (Noise) can you go show. Nikon
does'nt play the get it out now cause we can game, and that
conservitave philosophy has hurt them with some customers. But
when they get it right, boy do they get it right.
The D70 was the
best selling DSLR ever!
Then why is Canon %60 of the camera market? I also want to see some numbers.

The D2X is the best per-pixel performing
camera ever,
Hardly, it's noise is the reason why Tim Burton's Corpse Bride chose the Canon 1D Mark 2 despite having thousands of dollars in Nikon lenses.

(ISO100-800) and the Nikon VR works a whole stop
slower than the Canon.
I get 3 stops with canon IS, you are telling me Nikon does 4 stops?

The flash system is at least one generation
ETT-L 2 hold it's own

and the
auto focus on the D2 series wipes the floor with the 1Ds.
That's the funniest thing I have read. Have you ever used both systems? I have. The Canon has a bigger viewfinder and it is uncluttered with AF mark.

As far
as pros, you be surprised to see who STILL shoots Nikon. How bout
2/3ds of the Nathional Geographic photographers, Jay Silverman, Jay
Meisel, Mary Ellen Mark, Hary Benson, Douglas Kirkland...
I don't care about pro name dropping, but if you want then call Sports Illustrated and the Sporting news and ask them what they use.
If you think it's inevitable that all pro's will go Canon then pass
the pipe, I want a hit of whatever your smokin'.
I never said ALL pros will switch to Canon. For the last time, I USE BOTH SYSTEMS. Where did I say I dumped Nikon. All I said was their management and offerings were late and they lost their market dominance. I never said the cameras weren't good.

This is not the Nikon of the film era. They are always a step behind and their quality has dropped off. Their repair rate is twice what Canon's is. Nikon users deserve better than what is being offered right now.

"I want a hit of whatever your smokin'." Maybe I should have some of the denial you are smoking. I am a realist Nikon and Canon. I have no allegiances, I don't blindly support Nikon and their incompetent management.
 
All I am saying is with the 5fps and aps-c sensor I could shoot the same image with both cameras, that's a fact. I have used both systems for 10 years now. A rebel XT or D70 does not have the frame rate to match. I am not loyal to Nikon or Canon. I call it like I see it.
I shoot both systems and I know for a fact I could do the same
things with both cameras.
Put either camera in my hands and I could get the same image.
Basketball, baseball, still life. Tell me where I couldn't have
the 20D match the image quality? I am not talking about build
quality or ruggedness. The D2X does not have pro features like
Canon's 1 series. It has an aps-c sized chip like the 20D, small
eyepoint viewfinder.With the exception of using that silly HSC mode
to get a few extra needless frames, there is not much the D2X has
on a 20D in term of capturing an image.
 
Prove it. I have both systems in my hands are capable of capturing great images. Have you ever shot both systems long term? I have no loyalties to either platform but it is apparent that you do without anything to back it up with.
 
When did you test the 20D and how long? Seems to focus fine to me. Of course it won't beat a D2X but it does well. My point is that a $1400 camera can almost do what a D2X flagship camera can do does not speak well for Nikon at the moment.
 
What needs to be done is a brand new format that doesn't require a
mirror. Full frame just costs more. Look at the Sony R1. The lens
is 2mm from the sensor! We need something like that with removable
lenses.
The cost is coming down rapidly. FF has less distortion when using wide angles. The R1 is a joke.
Also, smaller sensors equate to smaller lenses. Look at the new
Olympus system. You can't find a 70-200 F2.0 for these current
SLR's.
The Olympus lenses I have seen are not small at all and their E-300 is a a brick. DX lenses are not that much smaller than FF lenses either.
So you say smaller sensors equate to more noise? Well, if we
weren't so crazy with the megapixels... I'm sure that technology
will evolve to the point where noise isn't a problem until some
insane ISO like 6400...wouldn't that be nice.
The D2X is at it's max, the noise is showing or else there would not be 2 levels of noise reduction.
 
True, I think something LIKE the R1 is a possibility.. just I'd want a larger sensor in there, maybe not quite as large as full frame.. could be a tad smaller if it made it massively cheaper. But then there would need to be a whole complete set of quality lenses available at launch.

Daniel.
 
What is the reason for this brand-fundamentalism? I am not collecting photographic tools, I am using them. I mean, the producers should be exited about me as a customer and not vice-verse.

I changed to Canon last year, after my Nikon war broken down. Without this accident I had probably waited another 6-12 months. But honestly, just between us, I am not making better pictures today.

Concerning Nikon’s leading position, I mean the loss of it, I also think we can blame the present management a bit. They are loosing their most important segment, the professionals, and they are just denying the facts. Like newly we had this story about the Nikon RAW file, which could not be read and processed in third-party software. Nikon has handled it too slow and unprofessionally. In a way I feel sorry for Nikon, sorry for us, because it would be better for the competition having 2-3 strong players.

The whole camera business changed totally during the last years, and some have reacted better and faster than others. The chemical business of producing film was for Fuji, Kodak, Agfa etc… Nikon and Canon were in the optical business. Their competitive advantage was producing fine optics and later also bodies. But today, the needed competitive advantage is producing sensors and chips. And that’s the reason Canon has taken over the lead. They have experience and resources in the electronic business, but Nikon sources the sensor from Sony. Today we don’t buy a camera body, but body+film, so the quality and the speed of the sensor/chip is paramount. Furthermore the size of the sensor limits/enhances the usage of your lenses too. For me this was the main reason to jump over to the Canon club. I am sure Nikon will catch up. Sooner or later producing camera sensors is going to be a commodity business, like producing RAM modules or processors today. But for the short and medium term, I think Canon will lead.
 
I worship at the holy temples of Nikon, Apple, Panasonic(Video), Leica, Epson, Lowe-Pro, Sprint, Palm, Arri, Lacie, Bogen, Herman Miller and Mercedes. I guess I'm the modern man. All brand loyalty and no faith.
Maybe that's what makes me good at advertising.

You may find this interesting...

In addition to campaigns, I shoot quite a few internal ad agency research videos. Recently I shot one were the agency was trying to directly imply their brand had feelings, to such an extent that if you used a competitor you would be betraying it. It was facinating, mostly because of how well it worked! We form attachments to things because we believe that somehow it will facilitate us being better. Therefore we project our own vested interest into the object, or brand. It's personification. But it's not entirely wrong either. By buying new gear we often give ourselves the excuse to go out and shoot more. This is what really makes us better, but motivation can be hard to come by, and $1000 lens or $3200 camera is a great motivator to get out and take pictures. Honestly some of my most inovative shots, the stuff that gets me my work, was taken at a shoot I set up to test some new gadget.

The big movement in advertising right now is love! It's no longer good enough to just buy and use a product, you must love it.

I do love Nikon, ever since my first camera at 13, a Canon AE1, broke on me twice in the same month, I've felt betrayed. I got my fathers F2 after that, and it still chugs on next to my D2X & D70. After shooting Nikon for 17 years I have had to repair only three products. Two from my own incompetence.

I know and understand my loyalties, but they make me happy.
--
'Always beg forgiveness, not permission.'
 
thank you for clarification, it is appreciated. From your clarification, I do see your point better now. Thank you. And I do agree that the 2x crop is a gimmicka s it is somehting you can do with any camera in computer. I never understood the in-camera crop modes, or low-res option (unless it is downsampled from the enitre image as it tends to produce lighlty better iages and computer downsampling in a few cases, which I still think one would also call a gimmick as well).

I am stillonthe fence as to which system I will be buying into again. However, I still have some months before I amin a position where I can reinvest in a system and right now I am leaning towards canon due to nikon's lack of momentum these days. I will however miss the glass, especiallyt heir wide angle zoon, the 85/1.4 and the 200-400 f/4 lens that nikon makes.But with fullframe, I do not think that those loses with be notable as I do not plan on repurchasing the 200-400/4 lens for awhile and if I do I can get cheap camera to go with it.
 
There is nothing magical about full frame (as some people in these forums seem to believe) - it is still subject to the same laws of physics. All full frame does is give you an extra 1.5 stops in terms of image noise (for a given number of photosites), which personally I do not consider a very big deal, especially with improving sensor technology and image processing firmware. On the downside, full frame also gives you greater expense (it may come down in price but will always cost more than APS) and greater bulk and weight of body (need full size pentaprism, shutter, mirror etc) and of lenses for a given FOV range (most notable with telephotos).

Terry.
 
There is nothing magical about full frame (as some people in these
forums seem to believe) - it is still subject to the same laws of
physics. All full frame does is give you an extra 1.5 stops in
terms of image noise (for a given number of photosites), which
personally I do not consider a very big deal, especially with
improving sensor technology and image processing firmware.
Any improvements to sensor technology and image processing software apply to full frame as much as they do to smaller sensors.

Full frame also puts you 'higher up on the MTF curve'. DSLR resolution on the charts peters out at 3 pixels per line pair, which corresponds to 40 lp/mm on the 5D and 60 lp/mm on the D2x.

It's a lot easier to provide decent contrast at 40 lp/mm than at 60 lp/mm. (Basically, to cough up 5D resolution and contrast, you'll have to produce all new lenses for the D2x (which Nikon has started to do with the 12-24 and the fisheye).)
On the
downside, full frame also gives you greater expense (it may come
down in price but will always cost more than APS) and greater bulk
and weight of body (need full size pentaprism, shutter, mirror etc)
and of lenses for a given FOV range (most notable with telephotos).
As long as photography remains a game of collecting photons focused onto a planar photosensitive medium, larger is going to be better. And just as with medium and large formats, there are going to be diminishing returns and increased costs.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
The problem is that there are currently no lenses made by Canon that can resolve, and focus the light onto a full frame sensor with edge quality the same as pixels in the center. So given the same resolution and noise a D2X will resolve more from center to edge than a 5D can. It's simple optics. And most lenses can resolve above 60lpm in the center. The new DX Nikkors are designed to provide a smaller imaging circle but they are big in comparison to the format, in other words they have been designed for the 60lpm or higher rez.

Full frame is only desirable from two perspectives, S/N ratio, and FOV. Not DOF, but maintaining your old lenses field of view for comfort. As sensor and lens technology gets better the FF craze will become just another option. How bout this idea. A camera that has a FF sensor with 1.5x patch that is 12MPs but the surrounding imager is only 6. When you use FF the camera only uses 6MPs of the center patch so the resolution is the same. So if you want more density (Telephoto) or more area (Wide angle/Low Light) you would get the best of both worlds. Hmmm. I feel a patenet coming on.

--
'Always beg forgiveness, not permission.'
 
There is nothing magical about full frame (as some people in these
forums seem to believe) - it is still subject to the same laws of
physics. All full frame does is give you an extra 1.5 stops in
terms of image noise (for a given number of photosites), which
personally I do not consider a very big deal, especially with
improving sensor technology and image processing firmware.
Any improvements to sensor technology and image processing software
apply to full frame as much as they do to smaller sensors.
Yes, and the converse is true. The point is that in terms of ISO and image noise the advantage of full frame over APS is an absolute 1.5 stops, however as technology improves the 'usable' ISO range will increase for both full frame and APS in unison, hence the relative advantage of full frame will decrease. (An extra 1.5 stops in a usable range of, say, 2 stops is very significant, but an extra 1.5 stops in a usable range of, say, 5 stops is less so.)
Full frame also puts you 'higher up on the MTF curve'. DSLR
resolution on the charts peters out at 3 pixels per line pair,
which corresponds to 40 lp/mm on the 5D and 60 lp/mm on the D2x.

It's a lot easier to provide decent contrast at 40 lp/mm than at
60 lp/mm. (Basically, to cough up 5D resolution and contrast,
you'll have to produce all new lenses for the D2x (which Nikon has
started to do with the 12-24 and the fisheye).)
Fair point, but I have not noticed it to be significant for current sensors and as sensor resolution increases it is apparent that many existing lenses will prove to be inadequate in which case new lenses will be required anyway. Personally, I have no concerns about replacing my old 35mm film lenses with new 'designed for digital' lenses (with, if necessary, reduced focal lengths matched to the smaller APS sensor).

Further, assuming users take a rational approrach to resolution (which I admit is a fairly big assumption based on some of the posts I read in these forums) then we should be approaching the 'end game' in terms of the megapixel war anyway. Except for highly specialist applications I cannot conceive of why anyone would want more than, say, 20-25 megapixels. (No doubt there will be someone who comes up with a contrived reason, such as extreme cropping, but if this is the case then he or she would be better off with a cropped camera in the first place!)
On the
downside, full frame also gives you greater expense (it may come
down in price but will always cost more than APS) and greater bulk
and weight of body (need full size pentaprism, shutter, mirror etc)
and of lenses for a given FOV range (most notable with telephotos).
As long as photography remains a game of collecting photons focused
onto a planar photosensitive medium, larger is going to be better.
And just as with medium and large formats, there are going to be
diminishing returns and increased costs.
Yes, I agree. Purely in terms of image quality "larger is going to be better", however if the advantage is, in practical terms, imperceptible then (for at least some users) it may be more than offset by its disadvantages of greater cost, bulk and weight - in these respects 'larger is going to be worse'. This is nothing new, most photographers were willing to forego the image quality advantage of medium/large format film for the extra convenience of 35mm.

Terry.
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
Give me a break! Your messages are as one-sided as any I've ever read. Funny how you can say that the 8mp 20d (with it's mediocre auto-focusing) can do "an identical job" to the 12mp D2x (with it's very pro auto-focusing). Did it ever occur to you that, since you seem determined to simply ignore the actual gains of the high end cameras, you should perhaps start a thread about how the 5D can do "an identical job" to the 1Ds MkII, making the £5000 camera redundant? Or is it only Nikon high-end features you choose to ignore?

You can't be much of a photographer if you can't tell the difference between the AF in the 20d and D2x.

I find it rather ironic that YOU posted a message titled "Lots of denial and bashing"! Narcissism is a wonderful thing.

Ooops, silly me. This is a Canon forum. Where else would I expect to find a Canon troll!

Also (not that it matters, since you're entitled to your opinion, even if it is totally wrong), I've shot some seriously long range wildlife (wolves etc...) with a Sigma 300-800 on my D2x. Since the subjects rarely covered more than about 30% of the FOV, why WOULDN'T I want to use 8fps in HSC mode? It's not a gimmick if it allows me to get a shot that I might have missed at 5fps.

Some of you WA shooters really need to open your eyes to what other photographers do with their cameras.

S. B.
 
Now you see you are showing your Nikon mindset in this post.

FF is 35mm in our case, always has been always will be.

MF is medium format & you can buy a MF back (albeit cropped) for a medium format camera.

What is happening here is that Nikon are slowly getting you to believe there is no such thing as 35mm FF, and will sell you all their new 'digital' lenses to replace your perfectly good 35mm lenses which Nikon are not going to let you use properly. Because they cant produce a 35mm FF chip.

So please dont come out with statements like,
'As far as FF is concerned, it's the new medium format.

it's simply nonesense......

--
Equipment: the 1 (d)u(s)t collector, white goods, black goods, lots of lights
and a large metal studio.
Fact is rarely true & truth is seldom straightforward. (Me)
a few snaps: http://www.pbase.com/foodphoto/general_portfolio
 

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