12 million is 12 million is still 12 million

E10inator

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The output of the S2 & S3 is 12 million pixels. Add "interpolated" if you want but it's still 12 mega pixels. Fuji claims their sensor develops more information because the way the pickups are alined. One thing is for sure 4000 X 3000 = 12,000,000. The output of the S2 & S3 is 12 million pixels. The image is 12 megapixel and it crops and zooms like 12 MP not like 6 MP.

All cameras interpolate 1's and 0's into a picture and colors. Fuji makes those 1's & 0's into a 12 MP picture with some great color. If you don't like the ouput that's your opinion, but calling it 6MP or 8MP is not mathmaticly correct. The output of the S2 & S3 is 12 million pixels!

If you don't like interpolation you should shoot film. I could have a one pixel CCD or CMOS and if I could move it around fast enough I could output 22MP. The reviewers would call it a one pixel camera but the output would be 22MP.
 
If you don't like interpolation you should shoot film. I could have
a one pixel CCD or CMOS and if I could move it around fast enough I
could output 22MP. The reviewers would call it a one pixel camera
but the output would be 22MP.
Like the 1 bit CD players with 16 bit ovesampling,hhehehehehhe

Would be nice to have such a fast one pixel sensor with 22 MP oversampling, even better would be a 3 bit RGB true color with 22 MP oversampling.
--
***********************************************
a bad day fishing is better than a good day at work
 
Did you see Greg Beasley's recent post, showing how a 12MP (6MP really) S2 pro capture just "falls apart" when it is up-rezzed to match the output of a 22 megapixel medium format digital back's output???? The S2 image weighed in at 144 megabytes when opened in Photoshop, while the 22MP back's file was about 65 megbaytes when opened in PS.

Basically, Greg's sample showed that the S2's (that is S2,not S3) 6 megapixel capture, which some people like to think of as 12 megapixels!!! was totally blown away and pixellated, where the 22MP digital back had actual,solid,usable detail. And so....while it is possible to upsample, uprezz, interpolate, whatever you want to call it to get to big file size equivalents, there is always an advantage to a real capture size that is higher in MP count.

The S2 and S3 are unique cameras with interesting sensor designs,and they make good images. But we've got to be careful to differentiate between a six million pixel photosite camera, like the S2 and S3. Phil Askey says the S3 is a SIX megapixel camera...not a 12, but a SIX MP camera. Phil Askey has posted that here,in this very forum, with a very emphatic statement. And yet, others continue to try and build the S3 up as a "12 megapixel camera".

So, if one wishes, he can lull himself into calling the S2 and the S3 "twelve megapixel cameras'. But, as Greg Beasley's post points out, the S2 comes up far,far short of a 22 MP MF back's quality, even though the S2 file is over twice as large (144 megabytes versus roughly 65 megabytes) in storage space.
Take a look at Greg's thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=15151206
http://www.beasleyphoto.com/leaf.htm

http://www.beasleyphoto.com/s2.htm

Happy Shooting!
Derrel
Fu-ji EssWun(on extended loan),EssTu,Nik-On
DeeSvnD,DWun,DTuEx. And a E-Ohs TwunT-D
 
....while it
is possible to upsample, uprezz, interpolate, whatever you want
to call it to get to big file size equivalents, there is always an
advantage to a real capture size that is higher in MP count.
Absolutely correct. No argument. In fact the person who started this thread is the first one that I have seen that claimed the Fuji delivered a full 12mp of resolution. Yes, there are 12mp of sensors, but the resolution tops out at a roughly 8mp equivalent. There is much disagreement as to whether this is just an interpolation "artifact" or whether it is actual information. Either way, it prints up like a bigger sensor than Phil emphaticly states. So, Voodoo or Doodoo, you take your pick.
The S2 and S3 are unique cameras with interesting sensor
designs,and they make good images. But we've got to be careful to
differentiate between a six million pixel photosite camera, like
the S2 and S3. Phil Askey says the S3 is a SIX megapixel
camera...not a 12, but a SIX MP camera. Phil Askey has posted that
here,in this very forum, with a very emphatic statement. And yet,
others continue to try and build the S3 up as a "12 megapixel
camera".
Yes, yes, Phil has had a bug up his nose about Fuji for some time. No reasonable person would claim to get a full 12mp out of either camera, but the fact remains that it does bring a bit of extra something to the table.

Now - let's keep this in perspective, the tangible differences between an 8mp and 6mp image are not that huge. I had a friend who just bought a 20D and he kept harping on about 8mp, 8mp. 8mp. I finally showed him how much larger his print would be and he stopped bragging. Yes, more is more, and size matters, but you really need to double the actual pixel data to get your first worth while jump in resolution (one that is worth bragging about - in my opinion). Then we get people who start talking about one camera "blowing away" another because of twice the actual pixels. Just keep it in perspective, ok? I know that we all love to obsess over details, but really....
So, if one wishes, he can lull himself into calling the S2 and the
S3 "twelve megapixel cameras'. But, as Greg Beasley's post points
out, the S2 comes up far,far short of a 22 MP MF back's quality,
even though the S2 file is over twice as large (144 megabytes
versus roughly 65 megabytes) in storage space.
What sense is there in comparing a 22mp medium format back with an essentially 8mp camera. Who in their right mind would claim that a fuji could stand up to that?

Well, you can lull yourself into calling the S3 a 6mp camera if you want to, but there are 12 million sensors on the chip, it's just that half of them are devoted to capturing extra dynamic range, not pure resolution. A not insignificant advantage in my very humble opinion. Yes, with very careful exposure and post processing, you can get close with the 1DsII, maybe even the 1D2, but the S3 delivers it on a silver platter, and would you like some champagne with that, sir?

Just look at the new Canon 5D samples halfway down this fellows page (and note the modest statement at the beginning)

"I have held in my hands today possibly the "best" camera yet available to humanity."

His samples almost had me falling out of my chair. Such a big sensor, so many pixels, such a poor choice of tone curve..... That camera just has to be able to do better than this.

http://www.virtualtraveller.org/5dv20d/5dv20d.htm

--
Best regards,
Jonathan Kardell
'Enlightenment isn't anywhere near as much fun as I thought it would be'
 
His samples almost had me falling out of my chair. Such a big
sensor, so many pixels, such a poor choice of tone curve.....
Yes Jonathan, I also saw them, not very impressive. But they may come up with custumizable tone curves and such. In the end probably a good camera, with the same problem: Finding lenses up to the task.

I also agree with the S3 resolution analysis - in terms of image detail its a 6MP camera really, in terms of tone and color its unique. Now I would well want to have a true 12MP Fuji camera with a larger sensor and high DR and RAW compression to 16MP, but what we have got is just the S3, with bigger buffer on the horizon, and it delivery very nice looking images.

Everything else has been discussed enough, those who like it should go for it, the rest should choose another camera.

Finally it comes down to the simple trutz that so far there is no perfect DSLR. The D2x has the body and AF, but the sensor is a bit noisy and gives a much less pleasant look than the S3, the 20d has the right body size and weight, but the wrong lens mount and maybe a problem in the angles of the lenses, the S3 could take a bit more true resolution, the 1ds Mark II is much too expensive and not issue free either,

Well nothing is perfect in the real world so far.

regards, Bernie
 
Just look at the new Canon 5D samples halfway down this fellows
page (and note the modest statement at the beginning)

"I have held in my hands today possibly the "best" camera yet
available to humanity."
Great post Jonathan but look, in this forum, exactely here, there is people that is saying the very same thing about the Fuji S3. It is a stupid statement. There is not such a camera, and beside, in the Canon ecosystem, there is a FF 16 MP already, it is just question of money.

--
Regards
Gabriele
California, CA
 
Finally it comes down to the simple trutz that so far there is no
perfect DSLR. The D2x has the body and AF, but the sensor is a bit
noisy and gives a much less pleasant look than the S3, the 20d has
the right body size and weight, but the wrong lens mount and maybe
a problem in the angles of the lenses, the S3 could take a bit more
true resolution, the 1ds Mark II is much too expensive and not
issue free either,
We all have the perfect camera, is the camera we bought... To me my Kodak slr/n is the perfect camera and I'm sure that for Artichoke the S3 is the perfect camera. At the end they are all compromises and the question is to find the biggest number of features that make you happy.

Honestly a camera that never stop to surprise me is the D100 that I got several years now and we still use in the family. My daughter is working at her high school year book with it, she shoot football when it's dark at 1600ISO with the Bigma 50-500. Results are excellent. SOmetimes it is really question to be happy with what you got. We are years light ahead of anything imaginable 10 years ago and still we look for absurdity... :-)

--
Regards
Gabriele
California, CA
 
Good point.

But most equate the number of pixels with the amount of detail the camera can resolve.

The vast majority of reviewers have said that the S3 resolves about what a Canon 20D does.

Fuji's whole marketing lately has been to educate the masses that pixels contribute more than just detail, and in fact, the do. They have a very clever advert that pushs this point.

Maybe when people come a knockin here asking for advice, we can educate them properly.

Rather than just spouting, it's a 12MP camera, or as the ghosts say, it' only a 6MP cam, we can provide a truly well-reasoned reply.
The output of the S2 & S3 is 12 million pixels. Add "interpolated"
if you want but it's still 12 mega pixels. Fuji claims their sensor
develops more information because the way the pickups are alined.
One thing is for sure 4000 X 3000 = 12,000,000. The output of the
S2 & S3 is 12 million pixels. The image is 12 megapixel and it
crops and zooms like 12 MP not like 6 MP.
All cameras interpolate 1's and 0's into a picture and colors. Fuji
makes those 1's & 0's into a 12 MP picture with some great color.
If you don't like the ouput that's your opinion, but calling it 6MP
or 8MP is not mathmaticly correct. The output of the S2 & S3 is 12
million pixels!
If you don't like interpolation you should shoot film. I could have
a one pixel CCD or CMOS and if I could move it around fast enough I
could output 22MP. The reviewers would call it a one pixel camera
but the output would be 22MP.
 
We have tested S3 Pro (and others Fuji Cams) and Saturation Lavels in RAW mode (in a Portuguese Experimental Forum http://www.mundofotografico.com.br/forum/index.php?showtopic=3103 ; http://www.mundofotografico.com.br/forum/index.php?showtopic=3245&hl= ).

We have obtained the Saturation levels for R and S Pixels and that test results in this final graphic:



We can use R or S pixels to obtain some full 6MP image and this confirm S and R had complete image with real information in different levels of saturation and different positions of Image.

Well, thinking with this information we had concluded:

S3 have 12MP REAL INFORMATION between -3.5EV and +3.5EV (7EV of Dynamic Range whit real 12MP), and your best resolution is between 0EV and +3.5EV.

S3 isn’t a conventional camera, it have a lot of atypical results because your sensor work with 2 different levels of saturation and the use of Wide Dynamic Range results in better results and details over STD including small dynamic range scenes.

Sorry for my bad English. ;)
 
Interesting Leo.

You arre saying that the slightly different location of the S pixel can be used to enhance resolution.

But wouldn't this expanded resolution show up when photgraphing a standard ISO chart?

Although super ccd's often show better thna 6MP results on charts, this is often attributed to the diagonal array favoring rectlinear lines. I would love to see chart photographed on the diagonal.

Hope this goes through Babelfish well. :)
We have tested S3 Pro (and others Fuji Cams) and Saturation Lavels
in RAW mode (in a Portuguese Experimental Forum
http://www.mundofotografico.com.br/forum/index.php?showtopic=3103 ;
http://www.mundofotografico.com.br/forum/index.php?showtopic=3245&hl= ).
We have obtained the Saturation levels for R and S Pixels and that
test results in this final graphic:



We can use R or S pixels to obtain some full 6MP image and this
confirm S and R had complete image with real information in
different levels of saturation and different positions of Image.

Well, thinking with this information we had concluded:
S3 have 12MP REAL INFORMATION between -3.5EV and +3.5EV (7EV of
Dynamic Range whit real 12MP), and your best resolution is between
0EV and +3.5EV.

S3 isn’t a conventional camera, it have a lot of atypical results
because your sensor work with 2 different levels of saturation and
the use of Wide Dynamic Range results in better results and details
over STD including small dynamic range scenes.

Sorry for my bad English. ;)
--

This info has been brought to you by a 100% genuine S3 user/owner. Beware of substitutes!
 
1. There are phone cameras that output 5Mp with a 1Mp sensor: You won't use them for your pictures although 5mp are enough to print a 8 x 12...

2. Canon 20D is 8mp but beats S3 in resolution hands down...

3. D2x is really 12mp and beats S3 in resolution eyes closed...

4. You really don't believe that the 1 pixel camera will output 22mp...

5. have you looked into a really sharp 3mp picture from a DSLR?

6. You can always interpolate to 12mp so, you can get yourself a cheap compact 2mp digicam, interpolate to 12mp and deliver that to customers at 300DPI to make a magazine cover ...

7. How do you measure Sigmas SD9 and SD10 image quality? by the 3mp output?

8. By your words, manufacturers should forget the idea of putting more pixels on a sensor and just concentrate in interpolation mathematics...

Regards

--
Paulo Abreu,

'It is not worthy to make a video of your life - just keep the best moments in pictures!'
 
I agree with much of what you say, except...
2. Canon 20D is 8mp but beats S3 in resolution hands down...
I have made comaprison test prints with my Epson 2200, 20D to S3, with the same model lens. The S3 seems to resolve as much detail, in teh prints at least, as the S3. The S3 prints, even in normal dynamic range scenes, to my eye, creates a more filmlike image, especially in highlights. And becasue you can 'expose to the right' more with teh S3, without blowing highlights, I think the shadows and midtones look that much better.

Thom Hogan felt teh 20D actually resolved more than the 20D. And M. Reichmann seemd to think so to.

Dave Eckells from Imaging Resources is on record saying , (a post here) that the 6MP S2 printed up at what looked to him to be about 8MP.

Anders Ushold from BJP also siad that the S3 resolves at the equivalent 8MP level. I am not aware of a reviewer who performs more extensive tests than Uschold.

Alot of this I believe come down to printing, rather than onscreen 100% viewing.
 
For what it's worth, I found this little tidbit somewhere. I think the guy used to post here:



--

This info has been brought to you by a 100% genuine S3 user/owner. Beware of substitutes!
 
Substitute:

The S3 seems to resolve as much detail, in teh prints at least, as the 20D .

Thom Hogan felt the S3** actually resolved more than the 20D. And M. Reichmann seemd to think so to.

I need some sleep...

--

This info has been brought to you by a 100% genuine S3 user/owner. Beware of substitutes!
 
That resolution is clear in the charts, look for Tests from Dpreview.

100% Crop from Dpreview Resolution Tests (first a 6MP size image, second a 12MP image, with resample in cameras with other resolutions):

Nikon D100



Fuji S2 Pro



Canon 20D



Fuji S3 Pro



Now we have a 400% resample from these crops for best view.

Nikon D100



Fuji S2 Pro



Canon 20D



Fuji S3 Pro



I don't know why Phil don’t show the real results of your tests.

Get the images and look by yourself, the horizontal lines is perfect to see de difference.

One sample of information contained in S and R Pixels (From S3 RAW file).



By Leo Terra

Remember, the quality of R pixels is inferior of S pixels or standard APS cams, because this pixels is very small (like compact cameras pixels), but that pixels represent a true pixels (like in compact cameras), with true data and cam be used to add more resolution for this image. The textures were very beneficiated by this R pixel count.

We had tested D2X and 1D Mark II to, and we can see best detail retention in D2X, when compared to S3 but we can see best detail retention in S3, when compared to 1D Mark II.
 
But what happens if you orient or turn the resolution chart to a 45 degree angle?

Phil did recognize that the S3 resolved more on the chart. But the S2 does also, and it has no R pixels. Phil and a few others attribute the enhanced resolution to the diagonal array. It does favor vertical and horizontal lines.

If you photographed a chart turned to 45 degrees, then we could test this hypothesis.

--

This info has been brought to you by a 100% genuine S3 user/owner. Beware of substitutes!
 
I put S2 in this compilation to demonstrate this.
S2 don’t have some resolution of S3.

S2 is inferior of 20D and little superior of D100, but S3 is significantly superior of 20D. :)
 
Okay.

Hey, hang around! We need more S3 fanboys (fans) like you! :)
I put S2 in this compilation to demonstrate this.
S2 don’t have some resolution of S3.
S2 is inferior of 20D and little superior of D100, but S3 is
significantly superior of 20D. :)
--

This info has been brought to you by a 100% genuine S3 user/owner. Beware of substitutes!

Ghosts ghosts go away, please don't come back another day...
 
Well Fuji and its pixel countand interpolation. Thanks to Derrel (you get the praise here) for making me revist the white papers. I reread and came to a greater understanding. We all realize that a sensor is laid out in a grid. On that grid is a photdiode (pixel) then a space, then another photodiode. These are in rows staggered. so inbetween the photodiode is a gap or space. Simple grid pattern.



Now for the S2. When its in 12mp mode. The camera samples the pd's and guesses at the data, exposure or so to make a fith pd in the gap. once it guesses this data it adds it to the pic, the interpolation, ir stitching. Thus the S2 is a 6mp sensor that guesses a second set of 6mp data to make the 12mp or i will call it I12. What is amazing is the fact that all this data appears to be for resolution. This explains why some S2/3 owners have commented on the S2 resolves more then the S3.

Now for the S3. The S3 was delayed almost a year to get the sonsor right. The S3 has fuji's 4th generation sensor (sort of) This sensor is the SR sensor. The SR sensor was changed for the S3 to the SR II. The basis of the SR is 2 sets of pd's set to different sensativities to increase the DR.

Lookng at the pick the orig SR sensor appears to use the same photolens and the SRII uses 2 seperate ones. I have yet to find where Fuji says I am right or wrong here. Below is SR diagrams. SR on left SRII on right



Now the interpolation in the S3 is quite different than the S2. In the S3 we have 2 sets of real data interpolated or stitched to make one complete pic. We actually have 6.17 S and 6.17R pixel to combine to make a 12.34mp pic. I can hear Derrel and Gabe moaning already. Stick with me guys. Thats right guys it is a 12.34mp pic, but is it realy? The S3 is really a different take on photography. I think its the right way but am real hungry for more. The S3 give is 12.34 mp for DR, but only 6.17 for resolution. Thats right, 6.17 for resolution. Remember I said people say the S2 seems to resolve more than the S3. This is why.

I hope I was clear and this is easy to understand and got it all right. Fuji releases the HR (resolution only) sensor before the SR sensor. The HR sensor is at 9mp. That means they can adapt this to a SR (dual 9mp) or larger.

Fuji gave us a great camera, now lets figure out what to do with it. The Fuji S#, the best 12.34mp body, 6.17mp picture camera money can buy. Its also the only one.

--
Kodachrome, they give us those nice bright colours
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world’s a sunny day, oh yeah
I got a nikon camera, I love to take a photograph
 

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