Imagine a DSLR with MLU & life preview.....

Two situations when live preview is a big help (paricularly with a rotating/twisting LCD) s:

When you can't put your head in the same place the camera needs to be to take the picture.

When you are taking portraits, and your subjects are aware of you staring at them through the camera. For example, if the photographer holds the camera at waste level and view the LCD preview, many candid portrait situations become easier.
 
why do you need a live EVF preview or LCD preview,, especially when
the optical viewfinder in DSLRs are already live previews of what
is actually being seen
When you're using mirror lockup, DLSR viewfinders doesn't show "live previews", they show absolutly nothing.
and not some second generation electron
conversion. I think this nonesense of a live preview with dslrs is
ridiculous. The optical view finder of the DSLR is better than any
energy, make shift EVF or LCD live preview which is good with small
P&S cameras due to the small size and underwatre photography. But
for most purposes, the traditoinal SLR viewfinder is a better way
to go. I do not want an SLR with EVF or live preview when I have a
better more natural alternative.
Actually, an EVF is more "natural" in many areas, beginning with judging DOF. But that's not the issue.

He just wants an EVF during mirror lockup. Macro photographers and long telephot photographers use mirror lockup to minimize the vibrations produced by the moving mirror. The problem is that, with the mirror locked up, you can't use the SLR viewfinder, so you can't see when that stalking Lion hunches for the leap, you can't see when the butterfly's wings are spread nicely, etc.

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Take the sensor processing technology that drives the EVF in the
much discussed Sony DSC-R1 and assume that DSLR's will still be
built with OVF's and mirrors in the light path to make use of all
the glass designed for them and their film ancestors, i.e. for the
long distance between last lense element and the sensor (film).

we would get:
  • OVF: delay free, fast AF, ...well, just as now (hopefully
brighter one day...)
  • EVF (on back LCD) in case of Mirror Lock Up after framing the
shot through OVF for timing the final shot

Any thoughts?
Yes, I live the idea, and have been talking about it for years. Here's one of my earlier posts about how it could be done, even within the architecture of existing cameras, right now, with minimal cost.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=6884397

What I can't understand is why so many folks are screaming "EVF sucks!" in response to your very reasonable post about how a live preview would be good to have during mirror lockup.

I mean, what does a DSLR have now during mirror lockup? A blacked out viewfinder. A live preview, even using the relatively small display on the camera, and relatively low frame rates, has got to be better than nothing.

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wirehead and ricardo.
Does not look like an urgently wanted feature, and agree, marketing
this could really get tough. Avoid EVF and life preview as
terminology, then?

I actually saw this idea addressing several complaints on how MLU
is available in most of todays DSLR's (if at all) as a two second
mirror prefire and then shutter release, so whatever you shoot is
partly timing luck.
Actually, most of the Canon line, the Nikon D2X and D2H, and the Sigma SD9 and SD10 have "regular" mirror lockup. One presss of the remote (you could use the main shutter release, but that would sort of defeat the purpose) locks up the mirror, the next press fires the shutter. So you control the timing.

Doesn't help if you can't see exactly when the hyernas go for the wilderbeast because your finder is blacked out, which brings us back to your live preview during MLU.

Now, my Nikon D100 has 0.4 second prefire, called "anti-shock" and that is timing. One of my old film cameras, a Nikon 8008, had mirror prefire on the self timer, and I frequently set it to 2 seconds, exactly as you describe. So I appreciate the pain of the 2 second lag.
some ol' school guys hinted at real MLU being
something they wanted availble independently from actual shutter
release.
Yup. I thought your Minolta had true lockup?
Guess that benefit comes at too high implementation and marketing
efforts...
Or just corporate weirdness, like in the Nikon case.

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Mirror Lock Up is an OLD SLR feature, dating back at least 50
years. It's used when setting the camera on Bulb, for long
exposures, to avoid any camera shake from mirror slap. Mainly used
in astronomy.
Actually, I use it for macro and for long telephoto work. But it even helps with shorter telephotos. For telephoto work, it helps most with shutter speeds in the 1/30 sec to 1 second range. Shorter, and the higher shutter speed cuts the vibration. Longer, and the vibration damps out and only occupies a small percentage of the exposure.

For astronomy, I'm more likely to hold something in front of the scope, fire the shutter, and uncover the scope 30 seconds later. Moving my cover with a sliding motion instead of a fanning motion, so as not to create air currents and disturb the scope.
My E-1 has it as an anti shake measure for just such use. It is NOT
used during normal hand held shooting...
Yup.

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He just wants an EVF during mirror lockup. Macro photographers and
long telephot photographers use mirror lockup to minimize the
vibrations produced by the moving mirror. The problem is that, with
the mirror locked up, you can't use the SLR viewfinder, so you
can't see when that stalking Lion hunches for the leap, you can't
see when the butterfly's wings are spread nicely, etc.
These are really mechanical problems. Why do you NEED to lock the mirror up? Bad mirror damping or maybe bad shutter balancing (have you EVER spoiled a shot due to mirror shock?). OK, accepting that shock IS an issue, why not use a pellicle mirror or prism like the Olympus E-x0s? The next issue if that of the focal plane shutter - if your sensor NEEDS a mechanical shutter, and you don't want to build a stills camera with a continuous sector shutter (like a movie camera) then EVFs aren't an option anyway. If you're working with macro subjects at such high mag. that MLU is necessary then are you not also likely to be using strobe lighting? And astronomy? You're likely to have several instruments on your eq mount anyway - use a webcam on your pointer for timing if needed. As for the butterfly's wings - you can always view the subject direct! The wildlife example makes no sense - you're gonna need a decently high shutter speed to capture a dynamic subject like a leaping lion - why use MLU?

I see the desire - 'video' during MLU, but the NEED escapes me (with one exception - Canon's implementation is surely to allow the photographer to see beyond the visible spectrum).

--
Steffi
 
Having control of timing the shot during MLU was what i had in
mind.
That's why some DSLRs have a delayed shutter option. The delay is long enough that the primary vibration problems are mitigated, but short enough that you can anticipate the actual shutter opening.
I am
convinced now that it is too much of a design effort for the little
benefit.
Close, but not quite right. Too much cost for the benefit. The design effort is essentially incremental on what they're already doing and not particularly difficult (though things like supporting flash get a bit more complicated). But you now need a stronger battery, a DSP to do metering/AF with the sensor, a swivel LCD (seems pointless without one), a sensor and LCD that does video, a better LCD (200k pixels isn't enough for good preview), and a host of other small things. Look at the Fujifilm S3 Pro to see what happens when you don't have it all: you get a poor, pixelated monochrome image (no real time demosaic), no AF, no metering, etc. And there's another potential cost, too: noise.

That said, I'm pretty sure we'll have EVF some day, perhaps WITH mirrors (e.g. CCD/EVF instead of or in addition to prism).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D70, D100, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
Do you mean power consumption or power dissipation?

I think one of the issues regarding power is that the sensors in live preview mode (if they have one) warm up to a higher steady state temp than they maintain under current DSLR operation. This results in higher background noise.
 
I mean, what does a DSLR have now during mirror lockup? A blacked
out viewfinder. A live preview, even using the relatively small
display on the camera, and relatively low frame rates, has got to
be better than nothing.
I think its called a "knee-jerk" reaction. They are so dismissive of EVFs because they prefer completely optical viewfinders that they don't stop to consider obvious benefits. I suppose we all do this in some form or another at some time with some subject. But you'd hope people would recognize the advantage when it is pointed out to them.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
He just wants an EVF during mirror lockup. Macro photographers and
long telephot photographers use mirror lockup to minimize the
vibrations produced by the moving mirror. The problem is that, with
the mirror locked up, you can't use the SLR viewfinder, so you
can't see when that stalking Lion hunches for the leap, you can't
see when the butterfly's wings are spread nicely, etc.
These are really mechanical problems. Why do you NEED to lock the
mirror up? Bad mirror damping
Damping has nothing to do with it. Newton's third law of motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Mirrors move in an arc. To counter that requires counterweights (two of them, one on each side of the mirror, so you don't generate an axial torque) moving in an identical and opposite arc. No camera has such a system, and no camera is adequately damped for high macro ratios, telephotos with very high magnifications, or astrophotography.
or maybe bad shutter balancing
Again, without matching counterweights, it's not a question of "balancing", either.
(have
you EVER spoiled a shot due to mirror shock?).
Yes, literally hundreds.
OK, accepting that
shock IS an issue, why not use a pellicle mirror or prism like the
Olympus E-x0s?
I've used a pellicle mirror camera. They're fragile, they suffer mirror rot, they're so hard to clean that they make sensor cleaning look like a snap, and they cause vertical image smear, even with the pellicle is only a few microns thick.

There literally isn't room for a prism in current SLRs, unless you make the sensor even smaller (say a crop factor around 2x). The prism is a 45 degree solid beam splitter. It has to be the height of the sensor, and because of the index of refraction of the glass, it has an optical thickness about 1.5x the sensor height. There's not room between an SLR shutter and the back of the lens for it.
The next issue if that of the focal plane shutter -
if your sensor NEEDS a mechanical shutter, and you don't want to
build a stills camera with a continuous sector shutter (like a
movie camera) then EVFs aren't an option anyway. If you're working
with macro subjects at such high mag. that MLU is necessary then
are you not also likely to be using strobe lighting?
No, actually, you're not. Most high magnification macro photography is done with continuous light, typically a fiber optic cold light unit (although I'm doing more with white LEDs these days). These devices don't mix continuous and flash. For example, one of my macro lenses is a 25mm f2.5 Leitz Photar. At 10x magnification, that's an effective f25. it takes a lot of light to be able to compose and focus.
And astronomy?
You're likely to have several instruments on your eq mount anyway -
use a webcam on your pointer for timing if needed.
There's a little thing called focusing....
As for the
butterfly's wings - you can always view the subject direct! The
wildlife example makes no sense - you're gonna need a decently high
shutter speed to capture a dynamic subject like a leaping lion -
I didn't say "leaping", I said "hunching for the leap". Animals pose. They do an incredibly interesting variety of things at relatively slow speeds, before they go bounding or leaping. You need to see it the animal to catch an interesting pose.

If I were after an actual leap, I'd use a higher ISO that for a more "posed" shot. The action would go a long way towards gaining forgiveness for the noise.
why use MLU?

I see the desire - 'video' during MLU, but the NEED escapes me
(with one exception - Canon's implementation is surely to allow the
photographer to see beyond the visible spectrum).
Actually, it's specifically for focusing. You can zoom up to about 20x while it's engaged. The Canon really isn't built for use beyond the visible spectrum, just visible band of red, the H-Alpha wavelength at 656.3nm. (Canon didn't want another Sony "x-ray camera: scandal so the Da still blocks IR beyond 730nm or so)

Most DSLRs, in their quest to eliminate IR, eliminate over 2 stops of valuable H-alpha. This is partially because the IR blocker starts cutting out red, and partially because the blue "spectral tilt" filter is equalizing the sensors spectral curve (sensors are much more sensitive to red than a human eye. Some of the red needs to be knocked down).

Here's a pretty H-alpha picture. Not one of mine.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap980828.html

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http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
SNIP

I've used a pellicle mirror camera. They're fragile, they suffer
mirror rot, they're so hard to clean that they make sensor cleaning
look like a snap, and they cause vertical image smear, even with
the pellicle is only a few microns thick.

SNIP

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
As you said here, in your kind response to my question about AF in EVF only cameras:

'First, pop up a semi-transparent mirror for AF. It doesn't have to cover the entire sensor, so it can be smaller, lighter (therefore lower mass and less vibration) than a full SLR mirror. And it can be closer to the sensor, to not eat up so much back focus.'

This sounds as though the same probs as with pellicle mirrors might apply.

I'm not trying to be difficult, just interested in what you are saying

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
....Why?

1) MLU is only necessary for longer exposure shots.

2) Longer-exposure shots needs pre-composition, which means, before pressing the shutter, you already know what your subject is.

3) You don't have to see and watch the subject being shot (thru the camera) during long exposures. Why would you need to?
--
Medic
 
1) MLU is only necessary for longer exposure shots.
Actually, it is generally useful for a range of shots that are somewhat long. With very long exposures (longer than a few seconds), the vibration just isn't present for a longe enough fraction of the exposure to matter.
2) Longer-exposure shots needs pre-composition, which means, before
pressing the shutter, you already know what your subject is.
Bad premises tend to lead to bad conclusions.
3) You don't have to see and watch the subject being shot (thru the
camera) during long exposures. Why would you need to?
Because the exposure times that can benefit from mirror lock-up or delayed shutter firing aren't necessarily as long as you suppose.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
With the mirror up the viewfinder goes black.
--
Show me an affordable beamer with slide film resolution and I am sold....

Ralf
 
One example:

long telephoto shot down a romantic downtown street in sunset light on tripod, i need to avoid the mirror slap at exposure time around 1/10 of second, and i want to avoid cars crossing the street to spoil the picture I wanted to capture.

Or macro shot of butterfly - i wnat the wings open and not folded but that critter has its own mind....

I either want the live (sorry not life - non native speaker typo) preview while the mirror is up - too see what is going on in my framed shot - or timing control on the shutter release independent from mirror release. Most SLR and DSLR (some pricey exeptions are available) include the mirror up as a 2 sec prefire in the selftimer - so no timing control on shutter release and dear luck on the final shots content.

Cheers,
Ralf
 
SNIP

I've used a pellicle mirror camera. They're fragile, they suffer
mirror rot, they're so hard to clean that they make sensor cleaning
look like a snap, and they cause vertical image smear, even with
the pellicle is only a few microns thick.

SNIP

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
As you said here, in your kind response to my question about AF in
EVF only cameras:
'First, pop up a semi-transparent mirror for AF. It doesn't have to
cover the entire sensor, so it can be smaller, lighter (therefore
lower mass and less vibration) than a full SLR mirror. And it can
be closer to the sensor, to not eat up so much back focus.'

This sounds as though the same probs as with pellicle mirrors might
apply.

I'm not trying to be difficult, just interested in what you are saying
My observations on the small pop up mirror were based on personal experiences with pellicle mirror cameras.

Canon made two autofocus pellicle mirror cameras. The EOS RT (an EOS 630 varient) and the EOS-1n RS (an EOS 1, surprisingly) had pop up mirrors for the AF sensor. The RT had a single, central sensor that didn't make much demand of the mirror. The RT had multiple sensors, but its mirror was still 1/3 the size (1/9 the area) of a normal mirror, and with a shorter arc. Overall, you're talking 1/8 the moment of inertia, so proportionally less vibration. Instead of being suspended from two pivot points at the sides of the mirror box, it comes up from the bottom, on a shaft like a little fly swatter.

These are real "cult cameras" these days. I repaired an RS recently for a wedding photographer, who absolutly loves seeing the flash go off through the viewfinder. He said the flash image "burns" itself into your retina, you get a couple od seconds of "review", sort of like using a DSLR.

The wild thing is that I was trying to find some good pictures of the mechanism and I came across three different reviews that claimed the lack of mirror slap substantially improved hand holding shutter speeds, giving them a stop of advantage. I think it may have been a placebo effect, but that's the cool thing about hand holding a camera: it's neuromuscular, so placebos work!



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http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Do you mean power consumption or power dissipation?
Well, unless the sensor is emitting power in a non-heat generationg mode (such as emitting light or RF, or performing mechanical work) consumption = dissipation.
I think one of the issues regarding power is that the sensors in
live preview mode (if they have one) warm up to a higher steady
state temp than they maintain under current DSLR operation. This
results in higher background noise.
It's a bigger problem in smaller sensor cameras. They draw essentially the same power as larger sensors, but have a small fraction of the area. Even a Sony ICX413-AQ has 5.5cm2 to disspiate its 100mW, so the thermal rise is a small number of degrees. Look at how little noise rise Phil saw in his extended preview timing tests on the Sony R1.

The big problem (and it is a big problem) is all the other stuff in the "box". The sensor is often close to one or more high bandwidth, low noise amplifiers that dissipate more power than the sensor itself, in a smaller area. This produces a "hot spot" on one edge or one corner of the sensor. That's in an industrial camera where I have a pretty thermograph picture of the sensor board.

On a point and shoot, it's worse, because the processor and the LCD backlights are also locked in "the box", and you can be talking a watt or two for each of those components. That's what the medium format digital back folk learned. A Peltier cooler is often unnecessary. Just add a fan that forces some ambient air between the sensor and the rest of the junk in the box, and keep the sensor near ambient and you're fine.

Sony's LCD layout is a cool solution. It's never on the back of the camera, pressing up against the sensor board, like most point and shoots. It's either on top of the camera, or sticking up in the air. If I were Sony, I might have tried to shove the main processor into that "radiator".

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