Help! My E-10 fails to deliver the goods...

excal

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Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture, then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias, Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash

E-10 image below...



Nikon 800 image below...



--Excal
 
PS: I had contrast NORMAL and sharpness at SOFT - but sharpening the image still doesn't bring out the detail as seen in the Nikon 800. (also 1:4 compression)
 
From looking at the shots you are shooting at much wider angle than your friend. A rough guess shows the centre of you shot to be the grass just past the dirt track while the CP800 shot is centered on the hillock much further away. If you are both using AF then these points will be where the camera tries to focus. This means that your sheep are far distant from the focus point and OOF.

Note that the grass in the foreground of your shot is well focussed.

I would suggest you pre focus on the point you want the sharpest and then recompose while holding the shutter half down.

Thanks
Dave Robinson
http://www.davesphotopage.com
Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other
night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp
Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before
sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine
with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did
I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture,
then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice
how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias,
Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash

E-10 image below...



Nikon 800 image below...



--
Excal
 
Right - first off the E10 does have a sharpness issue at small apertures.

Secondly I wonder if your selection is a valid comparison. You seem to have taken a bigger slice for analysis from the 800 than from the E10 – so it seems to me.

The sheep should be proportionally bigger – even if fuzzier – from the E10 sample – instead I see things the other way around.
 
HI Excal
correct me if I'm wrong but:

1.

as far as I can see, the crop you've taken from the oly is 149X415 (61835 pixels), whereas the crop from the Nikon is 209X602 (125118 pixels) so instead of comparing a 2mp Nikon to a 4mp Oly, you are, in effect, reversing the sample, and comparing a 2mp Oly with a 4Mp Nikon

2.

Various others have suggested that choosing 'soft' on the oly actually results in the image being degraded rather than otherwise (don't know if that's true).

kind regards
jono slack
Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other
night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp
Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before
sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine
with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did
I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture,
then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice
how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias,
Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash

E-10 image below...
snip
--
Excal
 
Hi Excal,

I think Jono has a point there. As you've mentioned before you always have you E-10 set to "soft " in the sharpening settings. Would have been interesting to see the difference if you had it set to normal.

Well, anyway, it's a nice pic so just :-)

Cheers
Jens
 
excal,

i too have been having some of the same concerns regarding the images i get from my c-2100 and the images i am getting from my new e-10.

see this thread for some sample pics.

let me know how you make out.

joe

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=1498040
Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other
night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp
Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before
sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine
with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did
I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture,
then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice
how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias,
Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash
 
Excal,
I see this as a focus and depth of field issue not a sharpness issue.
Matt
Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other
night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp
Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before
sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine
with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did
I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture,
then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice
how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias,
Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash

E-10 image below...



Nikon 800 image below...



--
Excal
 
The images were 25% reduced - just so you see the whole scene. But the crop shouldn't matter - the first is 1:1 pixels, the second is 200%. So regardless of the size of crop, they have been scaled the same.

Soft vs Normal. There's a dilema. Normal for me is too agressive (maybe not with the sharpening, but with the noise it introduces). However, it's something I intend to test. Sometime soon (when I get a chance) I intend to go out and take some more landscape shots, bracketing different settings and then repeat with my Nikon 995.

Thanks
Excal
1.
as far as I can see, the crop you've taken from the oly is 149X415
(61835 pixels), whereas the crop from the Nikon is 209X602 (125118
pixels) so instead of comparing a 2mp Nikon to a 4mp Oly, you are,
in effect, reversing the sample, and comparing a 2mp Oly with a 4Mp
Nikon

2.
Various others have suggested that choosing 'soft' on the oly
actually results in the image being degraded rather than otherwise
(don't know if that's true).

kind regards
jono slack
Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other
night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp
Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before
sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine
with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did
I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture,
then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice
how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias,
Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash

E-10 image below...
snip
--
Excal
 
Right - first off the E10 does have a sharpness issue at small
apertures.
Oh dear, you may just have hit the nail on the head... in some ways I hope you are wrong, but in others, it would be comforting to know that this time it's the equipment, not the bloke behind it! :)
Secondly I wonder if your selection is a valid comparison. You seem
to have taken a bigger slice for analysis from the 800 than from
the E10 – so it seems to me.
See my other reply - it should be fine.
 
This is possible I guess - if you look at the crop (which is 1:1 pixels from the original), then you'll see also that the far hills are "soft" too. I began to wonder if the AF couldn't detect a contrast while the Nikon did? But a small CCD have a larger DOF would make some sense.

Excal
kind regards
jono
Jens
Excal,
I see this as a focus and depth of field issue not a sharpness issue.
Matt
 
To my understanding (I know this has been talked about before), when the sharpness is set to soft, the camera is actually blurring the image a bit, not just leaving it alone. I know its predecessor, the 2500L, simply wouldn't sharpen the image when set to soft, and this was the way I used it. The E-10 produces softer images when in this setting, a bit much for my liking...

I think it would be fairer comparison if the sharpness was set to "normal".

Adam
 
Oh heck... it's possible that it is blurring it. I hope that's not the case, because I can see me ending up shooting in RAW mode. Shudder... how much time have you got to write to flash?

That said, if one applies a function f(x) which happens to be a blur, and then one applies the inverse of that function (have to find that out somehow... some form of sharpen anyway), don't you pretty much get what you started with? Ok, maybe a little bit of rounding error so you get things like RGB {156,143,147} becomes {155, 142, 149}, but close enough my eye can't tell the difference?

Excal
To my understanding (I know this has been talked about before),
when the sharpness is set to soft, the camera is actually blurring
the image a bit, not just leaving it alone. I know its predecessor,
the 2500L, simply wouldn't sharpen the image when set to soft, and
this was the way I used it. The E-10 produces softer images when in
this setting, a bit much for my liking...

I think it would be fairer comparison if the sharpness was set to
"normal".

Adam
 
I tend to agree with Adam. I don't care for the Soft setting either. It just goes a little to far for my liking too. As for reversing the function to restore what has been actually lost will probably not work. It can only sharpen what is already there and if the camera discarded part of the details while doing the softening then those details are lost. This is why I normally shoot in Normal mode and then if I want the image softer I apply that in PS while always retaining the original.

JP
That said, if one applies a function f(x) which happens to be a
blur, and then one applies the inverse of that function (have to
find that out somehow... some form of sharpen anyway), don't you
pretty much get what you started with? Ok, maybe a little bit of
rounding error so you get things like RGB {156,143,147} becomes
{155, 142, 149}, but close enough my eye can't tell the difference?

Excal
To my understanding (I know this has been talked about before),
when the sharpness is set to soft, the camera is actually blurring
the image a bit, not just leaving it alone. I know its predecessor,
the 2500L, simply wouldn't sharpen the image when set to soft, and
this was the way I used it. The E-10 produces softer images when in
this setting, a bit much for my liking...

I think it would be fairer comparison if the sharpness was set to
"normal".

Adam
 
This appears to be a completely unfair comparison, on at least two fronts...

A. The E-10 has the Nikon beat 1.96 : 1 on total pixels or 1.4X's as many pixels in each dimension... which alone indicates a definite advantage for the E-10, further the E-10 lens is sharper, and this can be demonstrated from resolution targets in various reviews. The E-10 should win hands down. It's not even a fair contest. If you want to see the Nikon win something lets talk noise... :-) Those relatively larger sensors on 2MP cameras do have a real advantage there compared to 3.3MP sensors of the same physical size.

B. The shots simply aren't framed the same. The FOV is much wider on the E-10 shot... The Nikon shot is using 2MP to cover only about 2/3 the width of the image the E-10 is framing which has the effect of making the Nikon appear to have the equivalent of more than a 4MP sensor... (Math: 1600 = 2/3X, X=2400... so in effect, the 2MP sensor has the apparent resolution of a 2400x1800 sensor used to frame the same image as the E-10 did...) So much for objection A...

As Jono said, you are in fact turning the comparison upside down and granting the 2MP more pixels per square foot of subject than the E-10 and then further compounding that in your comparison crops...

I'd say that Jono had it knocked from the start. The areas of comparison are "unfair", the E-10 sample should contain 1.96 "times" as many total pixels as the Nikon sample. The focus issue is the other problem. The E-10 has a much shallower DOF and sharpness falls off much more quickly outside that DOF even at F5.6 or so. So choosing an off center or off point of focus area for comparison is a problem.

To do a comparison of this sort without having the same person frame the same scene and focus on the same spots with a tripod to eliminate any chance of motion blur is rather pointless. Further, it's rather irresponsible to say the E-10 failed to deliver the goods when it seems more likely that the tester failed to deliver the goods... We shouldn't be so quick to blame the tools. :-)

I think you have to admit this isn't a fair comparison.(in more than one way, 2MP vs. 4MP isn't exactly fair.) If it was, the selected areas would have to be as follows: the E-10 sample would have to be 1.4 X's wider and 1.4X's higher in pixels than the Nikon sample... (2240/1600 = 1.4X's, as does 1680/1200...)

I hope my points have been made. I'd very much like people to do a bit more research before they make such inflammatory statements concerning a piece of equipment. Frankly, it makes those with legitimate concerns about a product look like they belong in the same category as those who don't research carefully what they're presenting. In fairness, that's because those who read such comparisons don't often do the work to check them either...

Excal, this isn't meant to knock you, but I think this sort of thing does us a disservice as a group. I intend no malice. I think if you went back out to the same spot with a print of the Nikon image and framed the same image with the E-10 you see the difference if you compared the SAME area from each print or file... Preferrably the area at the point of focus, not off center.
 
Excal,

What are the focal lenghts of the two pictures and the distance from the subject? It looks as if the E-10 was taken at either a wider focal length and/or further distance than the Nikon. If so they simply can not be compared. The Nikon would have magnified the image relative to the E-10 and so would be sharper and show more detail.

Frank B
Ok, I'm confuzed and concerned. I went out shooting the other
night with a friend of mine who has an old Nikon 2x zoom 2mp
Coolpix (800). I had the E-10. It was about 2 hours before
sunset. The trouble is, his pictures were way sharper than mine
with the E-10? This shouldn't be! Has my E-10 got a fault, or did
I do something wrong?

Below is an example (by no means the only one). Original picture,
then a crop and then a 200% upsample of a crop of the crop. Notice
how the Nikon 800 sheep is sharper than the E-10's... :(

Cheers
Excal

Olympus E-10 = ISO 80, AF, 1/125, f6.3, 9.0mm, 0.0 Exp Bias, Ap
Priority, Centre Meter, No Flash

Nikon E800 = ISO 100, AF, 1/147.9, f6.5, 10.4mm 0.0 Exp Bias,
Normal, Multi-Segment, No Flash

E-10 image below...



Nikon 800 image below...



--
Excal
 
Gerald,

what about these pics for a comparison??

http://www.pbase.com/joeg11/e10_c2100

keep in mind....i to mean no malice, i am just sitting back wondering why i bought the e-10, hoping someone can explain it to me.

joe
This appears to be a completely unfair comparison, on at least two
fronts...

A. The E-10 has the Nikon beat 1.96 : 1 on total pixels or 1.4X's
as many pixels in each dimension... which alone indicates a
definite advantage for the E-10, further the E-10 lens is sharper,
and this can be demonstrated from resolution targets in various
reviews. The E-10 should win hands down. It's not even a fair
contest. If you want to see the Nikon win something lets talk
noise... :-) Those relatively larger sensors on 2MP cameras do
have a real advantage there compared to 3.3MP sensors of the same
physical size.

B. The shots simply aren't framed the same. The FOV is much wider
on the E-10 shot... The Nikon shot is using 2MP to cover only
about 2/3 the width of the image the E-10 is framing which has the
effect of making the Nikon appear to have the equivalent of more
than a 4MP sensor... (Math: 1600 = 2/3X, X=2400... so in effect,
the 2MP sensor has the apparent resolution of a 2400x1800 sensor
used to frame the same image as the E-10 did...) So much for
objection A...

As Jono said, you are in fact turning the comparison upside down
and granting the 2MP more pixels per square foot of subject than
the E-10 and then further compounding that in your comparison
crops...

I'd say that Jono had it knocked from the start. The areas of
comparison are "unfair", the E-10 sample should contain 1.96
"times" as many total pixels as the Nikon sample. The focus issue
is the other problem. The E-10 has a much shallower DOF and
sharpness falls off much more quickly outside that DOF even at F5.6
or so. So choosing an off center or off point of focus area for
comparison is a problem.

To do a comparison of this sort without having the same person
frame the same scene and focus on the same spots with a tripod to
eliminate any chance of motion blur is rather pointless. Further,
it's rather irresponsible to say the E-10 failed to deliver the
goods when it seems more likely that the tester failed to deliver
the goods... We shouldn't be so quick to blame the tools. :-)

I think you have to admit this isn't a fair comparison.(in more
than one way, 2MP vs. 4MP isn't exactly fair.) If it was, the
selected areas would have to be as follows: the E-10 sample would
have to be 1.4 X's wider and 1.4X's higher in pixels than the Nikon
sample... (2240/1600 = 1.4X's, as does 1680/1200...)

I hope my points have been made. I'd very much like people to do a
bit more research before they make such inflammatory statements
concerning a piece of equipment. Frankly, it makes those with
legitimate concerns about a product look like they belong in the
same category as those who don't research carefully what they're
presenting. In fairness, that's because those who read such
comparisons don't often do the work to check them either...

Excal, this isn't meant to knock you, but I think this sort of
thing does us a disservice as a group. I intend no malice. I
think if you went back out to the same spot with a print of the
Nikon image and framed the same image with the E-10 you see the
difference if you compared the SAME area from each print or file...
Preferrably the area at the point of focus, not off center.
 
Joe hi
I thought we had explained it?

whatever

I hope you'll learn to love it like the rest of us

kind regards
jono slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
what about these pics for a comparison??

http://www.pbase.com/joeg11/e10_c2100

keep in mind....i to mean no malice, i am just sitting back
wondering why i bought the e-10, hoping someone can explain it to
me.

joe
This appears to be a completely unfair comparison, on at least two
fronts...

A. The E-10 has the Nikon beat 1.96 : 1 on total pixels or 1.4X's
as many pixels in each dimension... which alone indicates a
definite advantage for the E-10, further the E-10 lens is sharper,
and this can be demonstrated from resolution targets in various
reviews. The E-10 should win hands down. It's not even a fair
contest. If you want to see the Nikon win something lets talk
noise... :-) Those relatively larger sensors on 2MP cameras do
have a real advantage there compared to 3.3MP sensors of the same
physical size.

B. The shots simply aren't framed the same. The FOV is much wider
on the E-10 shot... The Nikon shot is using 2MP to cover only
about 2/3 the width of the image the E-10 is framing which has the
effect of making the Nikon appear to have the equivalent of more
than a 4MP sensor... (Math: 1600 = 2/3X, X=2400... so in effect,
the 2MP sensor has the apparent resolution of a 2400x1800 sensor
used to frame the same image as the E-10 did...) So much for
objection A...

As Jono said, you are in fact turning the comparison upside down
and granting the 2MP more pixels per square foot of subject than
the E-10 and then further compounding that in your comparison
crops...

I'd say that Jono had it knocked from the start. The areas of
comparison are "unfair", the E-10 sample should contain 1.96
"times" as many total pixels as the Nikon sample. The focus issue
is the other problem. The E-10 has a much shallower DOF and
sharpness falls off much more quickly outside that DOF even at F5.6
or so. So choosing an off center or off point of focus area for
comparison is a problem.

To do a comparison of this sort without having the same person
frame the same scene and focus on the same spots with a tripod to
eliminate any chance of motion blur is rather pointless. Further,
it's rather irresponsible to say the E-10 failed to deliver the
goods when it seems more likely that the tester failed to deliver
the goods... We shouldn't be so quick to blame the tools. :-)

I think you have to admit this isn't a fair comparison.(in more
than one way, 2MP vs. 4MP isn't exactly fair.) If it was, the
selected areas would have to be as follows: the E-10 sample would
have to be 1.4 X's wider and 1.4X's higher in pixels than the Nikon
sample... (2240/1600 = 1.4X's, as does 1680/1200...)

I hope my points have been made. I'd very much like people to do a
bit more research before they make such inflammatory statements
concerning a piece of equipment. Frankly, it makes those with
legitimate concerns about a product look like they belong in the
same category as those who don't research carefully what they're
presenting. In fairness, that's because those who read such
comparisons don't often do the work to check them either...

Excal, this isn't meant to knock you, but I think this sort of
thing does us a disservice as a group. I intend no malice. I
think if you went back out to the same spot with a print of the
Nikon image and framed the same image with the E-10 you see the
difference if you compared the SAME area from each print or file...
Preferrably the area at the point of focus, not off center.
 

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