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HELP: Nightclub photo's + 580ex = Very Dark pics (samples incld.)

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kspades

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Hey All

Im a nightclub photographer who usually shoot under some harsh lighting conditions. I know the reason why the pictures come out dark (the flash darkens the background or the partygoers is wearing alot of white or glitter) but my question is is there anything I can do to compensate besides shooting raw and photoshopping.

Generally I dont have alot of time to fiddle with settings before I take the pic (partygoers dont want to spend alot of time with photographer) so I need maybe a general setting that would yeild the brighest results. Yet another problem is most my images are taken in portrait position so the flash is now to the left side...I try angling the head at 45deg to get a bounce and that works to some extent however the lower quater of the pic is totally in dark.

Can anyone enlighten me, or maybe just tell me what Im doing wrong. 90% of the times I shoot TV @ 1/60 with the 17-85 canon, I leave the flash on ETTL and I've never ventured to Manual. Can this flash unit give me maybe a pre-flash kinda like how PS camera does to brighten up my backgrounds? It does have a strobotic (sp) MULTI mode, but after reading and testing Im not sure if that does waht I want...all my pics were even darker.

Samples: (feel free to tear them apart, I need to know what Im doing wrong).

1/60, 2.8f @ 19mm, ISO400, +.3 EC



1/60, 5.6f @ 22mm, ISO400



Thanks
 
kspades said:
Click to expand...
kspades said:
90% of the times I shoot TV @ 1/60 with the 17-85 canon, I leave
the flash on ETTL and I've never ventured to Manual.
Click to expand...
kspades said:
1/60, 2.8f @ 19mm, ISO400, +.3 EC
Click to expand...
F2.8 on the 17-85IS?

The picture of the 2 girls look OOF. When I shot people I use the center AF point and put it on their face. I try to focus on their chin if I can because I try to avoid pointing the flash directly at their eyes.

Regardless of the F-stop used in this shot, you might want to stop down one stop to get a better depth of field. As you know when taking candids people don't want to wait on the photographer. They are there to meet people, drink and be happy.

I find A LOT of nightclubs, bars, and dance halls either have a dark ceiling or a high ceiling making bounce flash almost useless. What is your ceiling like?

You can get a diffuser to soften the direct flash method.
kspades said:
1/60, 5.6f @ 22mm, ISO400

Click to expand...
Your bounce flash method highlights things that stick out more than the face does...

Night club photography can be tough. You can use a 2nd flash mounted above the action, from a distance, at a 45 degree angle for the background and side lightening on people's faces. But this will only really work from a couple of perspectives esp. if most of your shots are candids.

Is this your nightclub? Do you have the owner's permission to take these shots? I am only asking because it gives me an an idea of how much say you might have in putting up a slave flash. If some of these pictures are going on an official website to promote the club, you and the owner will want the best shots possible. This would require a 2nd flash.

You should also get a prime based on you average distance from your subjects. The Sigma 30mm, Canon 50mmf1.8, 85mm, and 100F2 are great candids lenses. With these lenses you could use f2.8-f4 and the flash ouput wouldn't be as harsh on happy people's faces. When people are drinking they don't recover from a bright flash quite as quick.

And remember IS will not really freeze people if they are moving against the background.

--
Kevin Heider (Capital Swing Dancers Club Photographer)

http://www.pbase.com/kheider
 
1. Consider using ISO 800 or 1600. These will enable the darker background to be better exposed. Try a few shots and then output them via your normal process (web? 4x6? 8x10?) and see if the noise is acceptable.

2. Another lens to consider: Sigma 20mm f/1.8. I have used this extensively for indoor available light (never nightclubs, though). The 1.8 and 2.0 aperture settings have been invaluable.
 
Hi there,

I would pre-set the shutter speed to 1/20 in Shutter Priority Mode and let the camera handle the flash. This will lighten up your background. It might become a bit blurred, but that creates nice effects sometimes.

If you play around a little bit, maybe a a +1/3 to +1/2 stop flash compensation would come in handy.

Regards,
Olli
 
The pics you show are actually perfectly exposed as far as the flash is concerned. Your main subject is correctly lit by the flash.

The background can never be correctly illuminated by the same flash that lit the subject. A flash can only correctly expose at a certain distance. So, that's either the subject, or the background.

Thus, background exposure should be done by:
1. Ambient exposure.
2. Extending the area of correct exposure of the flash.
3. Using another extra lightsource.

1. Probably the ambient is simply too dark, to get the background brightend by it. On the first pic, you allready have ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/60. Not much more you can do, considering how dark it still is...

2. When shooting flash, only at the exact distance of the subject, will the exposure be correct. Anything in front, or behind will be off in exposure. How much, depends on the relative distance between it and the subject, compared to the distance to the flash.

What that means, is that when you take a longer distance to the subject, then the more correctly lit something close to it, will be. This will work for getting better exposure of the friend behind.

This would have worked well for the second picture. You got a very good flash exposure on the girl. Remarkably good picture for a direct flash. But because of the simply laws of physics, the flash light drops off considerably before it reaches the guy. Putting more space between you and them, would make the relative distance between the guy and the girl smaller, and thus the drop-off. Using a little longer lens, you'll also get a nicer perspective.

Ofcourse, it might be difficult to get enough space in a night club...

Bouncing light also increases the relative distance, but also changes the plane on which the flash intensity is equal. That plane is always perpendicular to the direction of the light beam. In a bounced shot, the plane of correct intensity is tilted, and thus you get better intensity in front and behind of the subject.

I've not seen such shadows as in your pictures yet... I can imagine two causes. One could be that you don't point the flash high enough, and thus shoot over, and behind of the girls. At this close range, you should have the flash shooting vertically, or even slightly backwards!

Normally, a ceiling is reflecting diffusely. So you shouldn't think as bouncing like from a mirror. Choose a spot on the ceiling where the light should be coming from, in relation to the subject, and point the flash towards it.

Another things that I'm wondering.... When the flash is shooting vertically, then plane of correct intensity is lying horizontally. I wonder if that's exactly what we're seeing in the first picture. Maybe you're seeing the normal light fall-off from a flash, but now vertically.
 
I am not sure I can help much as I bet you are much better than I... but have you considered something along the lines of a stroboframe to keep the flash above the camera (one of the things you mentioned being a problem).
 
Thanks

I will try some of what you said...though its very difficult in a nightclub to "move back"...more offen Im on the dancefloor in hte middle of a crowd taking pics...I get much better expressions that way rather than the "sniper" method. I am the official photographer for the club(s) and I am allowed whatever equiptment flexibility necessary to get the shot...however with the camera, grip, flash and bag carrying it all I really dont want to add anything else to my arsanal...it tough enough to mauver crowds of drunks pushing and dancing and such.
Anthony de Vries said:
The pics you show are actually perfectly exposed as far as the
flash is concerned. Your main subject is correctly lit by the
flash.

The background can never be correctly illuminated by the same
flash that lit the subject. A flash can only correctly expose at
a certain distance. So, that's either the subject, or the
background.

Thus, background exposure should be done by:
1. Ambient exposure.
2. Extending the area of correct exposure of the flash.
3. Using another extra lightsource.

1. Probably the ambient is simply too dark, to get the
background brightend by it. On the first pic, you allready have
ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/60. Not much more you can do, considering how
dark it still is...

2. When shooting flash, only at the exact distance of the
subject, will the exposure be correct. Anything in front, or
behind will be off in exposure. How much, depends on the
relative distance between it and the subject, compared to the
distance to the flash.
What that means, is that when you take a longer distance to the
subject, then the more correctly lit something close to it, will
be. This will work for getting better exposure of the friend
behind.

This would have worked well for the second picture. You got a very
good flash exposure on the girl. Remarkably good picture for a
direct flash. But because of the simply laws of physics, the flash
light drops off considerably before it reaches the guy. Putting
more space between you and them, would make the relative distance
between the guy and the girl smaller, and thus the drop-off.
Using a little longer lens, you'll also get a nicer perspective.

Ofcourse, it might be difficult to get enough space in a night club...

Bouncing light also increases the relative distance, but also
changes the plane on which the flash intensity is equal. That
plane is always perpendicular to the direction of the light beam.
In a bounced shot, the plane of correct intensity is tilted, and
thus you get better intensity in front and behind of the subject.

I've not seen such shadows as in your pictures yet... I can
imagine two causes. One could be that you don't point the flash
high enough, and thus shoot over, and behind of the girls. At
this close range, you should have the flash shooting vertically, or
even slightly backwards!
Normally, a ceiling is reflecting diffusely. So you shouldn't
think as bouncing like from a mirror. Choose a spot on the ceiling
where the light should be coming from, in relation to the subject,
and point the flash towards it.

Another things that I'm wondering.... When the flash is shooting
vertically, then plane of correct intensity is lying horizontally.
I wonder if that's exactly what we're seeing in the first picture.
Maybe you're seeing the normal light fall-off from a flash, but now
vertically.
Click to expand...
 
I use the 580EX with a lumiquest with my sigma 20MM f.18 lense,

these shots were mostly, 800-1600ISo, 1/30Shutter and f4.00-f7

play with the flash exposure settings on the flash,



 


in this picture, you have a lighter skinned person in front of a dark skinned person

the lighter toned person will be more affected by overexposure than the dark skinned person, what you could do is reposotion the individuals, have an angle towards the darker skinned than the lighter skinned.

you have to keep this in mind when you are taking photos

take 2 or more of each person, show them the photos, adjust after each photo to what you think you will need to do.
 
The one thing I notice is the high contrast between the skin color and the clothing. In both shots, it would appear the lighter clothing is correctly exposed, leaving the darker skin color on the faces, underexposed. I'm not sure how metering method affects flash compensation, but you might try using a different metering method. You may also need to resort to manual flash exposure, rather than rely on the E-TTL flash metering, if you cannot get the metering to work better.
 
I use ETTL all the time, and automatic zoom

Get a bounce flash such as a Lumiquest softbox or Pocket bounce, it helps ALOT, makes everyone look so much better so they dont have lines all over their faces or showing insane shadows or sweat marks all over them

the only thing i adjust on my flash is my exposure compensation, it is usulyl like -1/3 or more depending on how the photos are turning out

i have parameter 2 set i believe for mroe color tone and sharpening.

in reality, we are resizing 3456 x 2304 photos to 800x600 or smaller, the quality will look better, and look sharper when you resize to make it smaller.
 
if you want more background detail you have to expose for it - I would suggest cranking the ISO upto 800-1600, setting flash to second curtain sync and using TV with shutter speed around 1/30.

Like to others suggested a diffuser is pretty much essential - a stofen would be my choice - looks less like a funny umbrella stuck on the camera and is very robust - which brings me onto my final point - make sure you've got UV filters or similar on all your lenses - you're sure to get in the way of something flying across the dancefloor!
 
There was a similar thread a while back in the 20D forum. My comments to the subject are in the link below:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=14718664

Basically, bump up the ISO, draaaag the shutter (don't worry, the flash will prevent motion blur for the most part), and shoot in Manual. Use FEC to control the exposure while keeping the shutter and aperture settings constant. Use a direct flash (don't bounce) and a flip-out diffuser if you have one.

An example of mine:



--
Henry
If it doesn't kill you, try harder!
http://www.pbase.com/onetimecrx
 
i think those are great for cool crowd shots and actoin shots.

if you are looking for individual shots like i am for clubzone.com, most definatley get a softbox or bounce flash as it helps alot for the tone of the skin and keeping the person well lit all over without shadows.

800-1600 ISO is a must, also shutter speeds of should be no quicker than 1/40 i think unless u are trying to get a good clear DJ shot with no flash.

most likely you will be using flash.

if you are going to use a flash for a DJ shot, use like -1/1 Flash exposure compensatoin, (when u press the selectors middle button and the left side fraction flashes, that way he wont be lit up a whole bunch niether will the decks and mixers, then let the long shutter do the rest.

experiment, only way to truly see how what you are doing is affecting anything.
 
kanadianiceman said:
i think those are great for cool crowd shots and actoin shots.

if you are looking for individual shots like i am for clubzone.com,
most definatley get a softbox or bounce flash as it helps alot for
the tone of the skin and keeping the person well lit all over
without shadows.
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure that using a softbox or bouncing is necessary. When I do a nightclub shoot, I'm shooting all kinds of shots (action, crowds, portraits, etc) and need a setup that can do all of the above without delay. I've been able to get decently good results (even with regards to shots of couples) using a direct flash with the built-in diffuser panel pulled down. With an aperture of f/4.0, a shutter speed of 1/15, and FEC set at -2/3 I can pretty much shoot the entire gig without changing a thing.

Here are two examples of couples shots with a direct flash:





Ok so maybe that last one was more than just a couple. =)

--
Henry
If it doesn't kill you, try harder!
http://www.pbase.com/onetimecrx
 
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