dark results on the *istDS

Hi everyone,

I posted here a few times before, especially when I had first purchased my DS in July. Some of you may recall that my initial photos were turning out too dark and the recommendation was to use exposure compensation up to 1.7EV. I have been doing so but for some reason lately the darker pictures have returned. I am appending an EXIF printout to the bottom of this post. I would mention a few factors.

1. it was around 4PM when I took this photos, with bright conditions outside, including the sun and the clouds. The photo appears as though a thunderstorm was imminent, yet I used exposure compensation here.

2. I have the camera set to shutter priority of 1/125 and I let the camera decide the aperture to use. I had NO troubles using this method on the automatic 35mm Minolta I was using until recently. I do not know why the camera felt it had to go down to f13 though. That's a pretty low setting to be using. But when I set aperture manually it involves a lot more work that I'm trying to get away from with such an expensive camera. I do realize expensive is a relative term.

3. I am able to rectify the problems in most cases by importing the image into Adobe Photo Deluxe and using the "Instant Fix" feature. When I do so it brightens the photo. I guess everyone here refers to this as PP, and have told me a few times that DSLR users should expect to do some PP work. Question is, why does my friend, who uses a Panasonic FZ20 have NONE of the darkness problems I'm having? He gets nice, bright, sharp pictures everytime with NO PP and I'm always getting this dark stuff and have to PP to get passable results.

My store return warranty period has long since passed, and I doubt this is a defect. I think it's something I'm doing wrong or the camera is messed up, either one. I like this camera because it is available locally, uses AA batteries and the nice SD card. I would really like to make this work but the consistently dark results are bugging me.

So, can Godfrey or anyone else offer me any further advice?

Exif information for IMGP0153.JPG
=======================================
Tag Name Description
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer of equipment PENTAX Corporation
Model of equipment PENTAX *ist DS
Sofware used *ist DS Ver 1.02
Exposure time 1/125second(s)
F number 13.0
Exposure program
ISO speed ratings 200
Exif Version 0221
Date time original 2005:09:08 16:14:48
Date time digitized 2005:09:08 16:14:48
Exposure bias 0.70Ev
Metering Mode Pattern
Flash Unknown
Lens focal length 55.0mm
Supported Flashpix version 0100
Color space Daylight
Valid image width 3008
Valid image height 2000
Sensing method One-chip color area sensor

railbus said:

… my initial
photos were turning out too dark and the recommendation was to use
exposure compensation up to 1.7EV. I have been doing so but for
some reason lately the darker pictures have returned.

Click to expand...

The EXIF information says 0.7 EV, not 1.7. Is that a quirkyness of the DS nomenclature (I have the D, not the DS) or user error? With a true EV of 0.7 you're underexposing by a about a third stop.

railbus said:

1. it was around 4PM when I took this photos, with bright
conditions outside, including the sun and the clouds. The photo
appears as though a thunderstorm was imminent, yet I used exposure
compensation here.

Click to expand...

As I said, it looks like you were applying underexposure.

Did you make certain the lens was set to the A-position? What lens were you using? Were you using a filter? (Some filters, like linear polarizers, can throw off the metering system.)

You were using pattern metering mode; were there some very bright spots that may have confused the meter? Seeing the image would be helpful.

railbus said:

Exif information for IMGP0153.JPG
=======================================
Tag Name Description
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer of equipment PENTAX Corporation
Model of equipment PENTAX *ist DS
Sofware used *ist DS Ver 1.02
Exposure time 1/125second(s)
F number 13.0
Exposure program
ISO speed ratings 200
Exif Version 0221
Date time original 2005:09:08 16:14:48
Date time digitized 2005:09:08 16:14:48
Exposure bias 0.70Ev
Metering Mode Pattern
Flash Unknown
Lens focal length 55.0mm
Supported Flashpix version 0100
Color space Daylight
Valid image width 3008
Valid image height 2000
Sensing method One-chip color area sensor

Click to expand...

Hey railbus,

Can you post a sample image? or send one to my emial? My email address in my profile.

Have you tried using ( Sensitivity Correction) in the custom menu?

Have you tried resseting the camera to factory defaults?

1. Turn the "Power" on your *ist DS

2. Push the "Menu" button located at the back of your camera

3. Push the "Right Arrow" button (2x) on the four-way controller to select "Set-up"
4. Push the "Up Arrow" button (1x) on the four-way controller to select "Reset"

5. Push the "Right Arrow" button (1x) on the four-way controller to enter "Reset"
6. Push the "Up Arrow" button (1x) on the four-way controller to select "Reset"

7. Push the "OK" center button on the four-way controller to accept "Reset"

It's hard to say without seeing a the photo.

Info_Man

railbus said:

Hi everyone,

I posted here a few times before, especially when I had first
purchased my DS in July. Some of you may recall that my initial
photos were turning out too dark and the recommendation was to use
exposure compensation up to 1.7EV. I have been doing so but for
some reason lately the darker pictures have returned. I am
appending an EXIF printout to the bottom of this post. I would
mention a few factors.

1. it was around 4PM when I took this photos, with bright
conditions outside, including the sun and the clouds. The photo
appears as though a thunderstorm was imminent, yet I used exposure
compensation here.

2. I have the camera set to shutter priority of 1/125 and I let the
camera decide the aperture to use. I had NO troubles using this
method on the automatic 35mm Minolta I was using until recently. I
do not know why the camera felt it had to go down to f13 though.
That's a pretty low setting to be using. But when I set aperture
manually it involves a lot more work that I'm trying to get away
from with such an expensive camera. I do realize expensive is a
relative term.

3. I am able to rectify the problems in most cases by importing the
image into Adobe Photo Deluxe and using the "Instant Fix" feature.
When I do so it brightens the photo. I guess everyone here refers
to this as PP, and have told me a few times that DSLR users should
expect to do some PP work. Question is, why does my friend, who
uses a Panasonic FZ20 have NONE of the darkness problems I'm
having? He gets nice, bright, sharp pictures everytime with NO PP
and I'm always getting this dark stuff and have to PP to get
passable results.

My store return warranty period has long since passed, and I doubt
this is a defect. I think it's something I'm doing wrong or the
camera is messed up, either one. I like this camera because it is
available locally, uses AA batteries and the nice SD card. I would
really like to make this work but the consistently dark results are
bugging me.

So, can Godfrey or anyone else offer me any further advice?

Exif information for IMGP0153.JPG
=======================================
Tag Name Description
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer of equipment PENTAX Corporation
Model of equipment PENTAX *ist DS
Sofware used *ist DS Ver 1.02
Exposure time 1/125second(s)
F number 13.0
Exposure program
ISO speed ratings 200
Exif Version 0221
Date time original 2005:09:08 16:14:48
Date time digitized 2005:09:08 16:14:48
Exposure bias 0.70Ev
Metering Mode Pattern
Flash Unknown
Lens focal length 55.0mm
Supported Flashpix version 0100
Color space Daylight
Valid image width 3008
Valid image height 2000
Sensing method One-chip color area sensor

Click to expand...

Hi, railbus. As stated, without seeing the image, it is difficult to troubleshoot. Just a couple of thoughts.

1.) Noticed that you are in Canada, so it is still pretty bright at 1615. A shutter speed of 1/125s at f/13.0 doesn't sound out of line at all for your latitude and time of day the image was acquired. While not considered "slow", the shutter speed you choose isn't fast at all. You camere will stop down to limit the amount of light coming in, otherwise you will blow all the highlights.

2.) There's a couple of things I would try before getting totally frustrated.

First, a dSLR does require more work than a p&s. That's just the nature of the beast. If you don't have a basic foundation of the theories of photography, it is easy to get frustrated. Not sure of your background, but it isn't simple. I still struggle with some basic concepts. Took my first photograhy class in 1972 at the local junior college while in the Navy. Took it again in the late 70s. Still, not everything is crystal clear.

Several things I would try:

Doesn't matter if RAW or JPEG right now. You just want to get a sense of the images. For awhile, be sure to review your images and look at the histograms. That will tell you quite abit.

a.) Try some different modes. Don't rely on Tv all the time. That's a good mode for some uses, but those situations are limited. Try the P mode as well as the Av mode. In fact, you might want to do a little test and shoot P, Av, and Tv at the same time of the same subject. Even try M mode (if you understand photography theory).

b.) Take some test shots, in whatever mode you are most comfortable with, in Bracket mode. Then compare the three images with each other. The first image will be at whatever exposure setting you set, or the camera sets. The second and third will be over and underexposed by whatever exposure step factor you have set the camera. Again, look at the overall image and its "pleasing" qualities, and also view the histogram.

c.) Try a few shots in "Program" mode. That mode is the most automatic mode the camera has. Not too many use it because it is, well, just too automatic. Some decisions are best left to the photographer.

Your comment about the expense of a camera and its automatic exposure performance does not correlate very well. In fact, there is no correlation at all. Some of the most expensive cameras on the market are totally manual. With a dSLR, you should expect some interactivity. It does have a p&s mode, somewhat, but that is not where its strengths lie. The strength of any dSLR lie in its flexibility.

Also noticed that your image count is still pretty low. Maybe you are still getting used to the camera? Film is cheap on these things. Go out and take lots and lots of pictures. That is one of the best ways to learn. On mine, I think I passed image # 153 in less than a week after first getting the camera. I'm now up to about 8300, since the beginning of December. That's somewhere around 250 pictures a week that I've taken! Sure, most of them are "junk", but I'm sure having fun! I do get a memorable keeper here and there.

Photography is a balancing act. There are repurcussions with any decision. Do you go with a fast shutter speed or a slow one? Do you go with an open aperture or a stopped down one? Do you go with a high ISO setting or a low one? And so many more. At a particular ISO setting, a fast shutter speed might be important to freeze action, but the result is a wide open aperture, resulting in a very narrow depth of field and the possibility of some thing being out of focus when you want them to be in focus. So, you stop down the aperture to get a better depth of field, but the shutter is now a lot slower, and you blur some action in the scene. To get what you want, you might up the ISO, but then you introduce some noise that you might not want. Again, it is all a balancing act.

I don't mean to insult your knowledge about photography. It is very complex. Please forgive me if I do not give you credit for knowing things that most people in the world have no idea about. Please post a sample image, with its settings. Then we can make a better educated analysis of what might be "wrong".

In the final analysis, maybe you got a lemon. If that is the case, you better get it into Pentax warranty service before the year is up. But first, you want to make sure it is not an "operator error". We've all taken something in for repair when it was working perfectly all along. Quite embarassing. We'll try to help you as much as we can.

--
Steven

What does it do on "auto Pict"???
--
No-one has a lease...enjoy every day to the max(if they'll let you!!)

Daveinozbikes said:

What does it do on "auto Pict"???

Click to expand...

Just about everything except for pressing the shutter, as I understand it. I'd have to read the manual to make sure. I never use that mode. I probably shoot Av mode the most followed by M mode. For sports, I use Tv mode. Never use any other modes at all. Tried "sport" mode once, but gave up on it because it didn't do what I wanted.

--
Steven

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in returning to reply to all of the wonderful responses you posted. I really appreciate it. A few comments...

1. I came from the fully manual SLR world. For years I was using a 1970s Minolta SRT-101 and I was taking my light meter readings from the ground (sky and snow confuse the heck out of light meters) or my hand and then would overexpose by about half a stop to get the bright results I liked. On bright sunny days I would not overexpose and the results were amazing. I was told before that photo labs do quite a bit of light adjustment on photos so that their customers will be happy. Understood.

2. The FZ20 my friend uses is also an SLR, yet he gets beautiful results straight out of the camera, every time. He has been on the DSLR thing for about as long as me, and we both came from the 35mm SLR world.

3. I didn't realize +0.7EV was considered underexposed. What's up with that? I thought that the shutter speed and light meter had a relationship and that was the end of it. I thought that the EV was more or less equivalent to what the photolabs were doing before they handed me prints in the 35mm days. Should I be shooting on an even higher overexposure mode?

4. This morning I took some closeup license plate pix in the shade and had EV +2.0. Much brighter and more satisfying. I viewed the histogram as someone suggested but I don't know what the heck I'm looking at. It's just a graph that means nothing to me. Please pardon my ignorance. A lot of this stuff is still new to me.

5. I've taken quite a few test photos and I'm finding this darkness problem isn't going away. I can't presently trust the camera to provide nice, sharp, consistent results as things stand now, so I came to these forums to fix this problem before I go too much further down the road. Even the colours are a bit off. Lots of orangey tones, despite me fiddling with the colour saturation, balance and such. I've fiddled with a lot of the settings to get it right but am still getting these annoying results. I'm willing to do SOME PP, some of the time, but to have to do that to EVERY photo is something I'm not willing to do. The camera should be intelligent enough to provide nice results most of the time, and when there is an obvious dud, then I'm totally up for PP work.

6. I also agree with the flexibility aspect of the SLR. I did a LOT of research and comparison shopping on P&S cameras but I found that they didn't offer me the SLR flexibility that I've been used to for so many years. I also don't like the appearance of the P&S cameras; they look like the cheap 35mm P&S cameras. I like the bulk of an SLR and the *istDS fools everyone. No one thinks it's digital because it doesn't look like a digital camera. The idea is not to fool people, but to satify my comfort level with the appearance of the camera.

Anyway, I've rambled long enough. The original image in question is over 3MB in size and too large to paste in this thread. So I am including a link to it right in the text of this thread. Please right click and save target as, or copy and paste in your browser to download the image onto your local machine. If I put it in this thread it will skew and have scroll bars.

Thanks everyone.

home.golden.net/ railbus/misc/IMGP0153.JPG

I also forgot to mention that yes, I've tried numerous shooting modes but still cannot solve this darkness/colour problem. I use shutter or aperture priority most of the time because I'm either shooting fast moving trains, or taking closeup pics of models where depth of field is what I need. For normal conditions, I use 1/125 shutter priority and let the camera select the aperture based on available light. Just wanted to clarify my procedures and reasoning behind them.

I just looked at the exif info for the pic you put the link to and it says you're set to manual exposure mode. That might explain the problem. Try setting it to AE Shutter Priority and see if it help. I might be way out on this as I have a D, not a DS and there's no separate setting for exposure mode in the D menu system- maybe a DS owner can correct me if I'm wrong?

Jan
--
http://www.pbase.com/noisynoodle

I'm still learning so I can't really help you with your main problem, but I did find this article on histograms useful:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml

-mike

Hi,

in many shots I observe the same. Often in bright light (bright sunny day) the picture is dark and need the correction up to +1EV, but sometimes no correction is needed in very similar conditions or even -0,3, especially in dully days. It's not a big problem because after the shot and examining of the histogram I can correct the exposure, but the metering seems to be not perfect in DS in contrary to the opinions.

I even though that it is the result of the light penetrating the metering sensor through the viefinder when the Sun is back, like it was in some film cameras, but it is not.
Anyway I like my camera, but the metering is a bit frustrating.

I found a number of similar posts in the past, so probabely you have to learn work around with the problem.
Regards - Andy

I've looked into this "exposure mode" setting on the DS a bit, and found that if it's set to "manual" you have to treat the camera as though you're using a non "A" lens. This means, basically, that the camera meters when you press the AE lock button and meters the aperture you've set on the lens. So, if you're using a lens in the "A" position and not carrying out the stop-down metering procedure you're going to get exposure problems.

I gather there is a chioce of 6 exposure modes available so I suggest for "A" lenses you try one of the AE modes and see how it works out. I think this will cure your problem.

Jan
--
http://www.pbase.com/noisynoodle

I also have to adjust metering up to +1.0 pretty regularly. It doesn't bother me too much. I just watch the histogram and adjust accordingly.

--
-James
http://memphisjames.smugmug.com

Hi Jan,

Thanks for responding.

noisynoodle said:

I've looked into this "exposure mode" setting on the DS a bit, and
found that if it's set to "manual" you have to treat the camera as
though you're using a non "A" lens.

Click to expand...

I understand. Rest assured this is a stock camera with no special lenses. I am using the lens that came with the camera, which is set to AF mode. Now, when you say manual mode, does that include Tv (shutter priority)? I've used the camera in complete manual mode before but didn't like it. So I went back to using Tv mode. Therefore, I would not be using M mode and your suggestion would not be relevant. If I'm understanding correctly...

noisynoodle said:

noisynoodle said:

noisynoodle said:

This means, basically, that the

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

camera meters when you press the AE lock button and meters the
aperture you've set on the lens. So, if you're using a lens in the
"A" position and not carrying out the stop-down metering procedure
you're going to get exposure problems.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm. I think I understand. I checked the settings on the camera but found that the AE-L button was NOT set, as confirmed by a lack of a star in the viewfinder. As for the lens being in the A position, I verified this through the custom menu and that's how it is set. I have it set for "Prohibited, Pictures cannot be taken when the aperture ring position is other than A. So again, I believe I'm ok there too.

noisynoodle said:

I gather there is a chioce of 6 exposure modes available so I
suggest for "A" lenses you try one of the AE modes and see how it
works out. I think this will cure your problem.

Click to expand...

I assume you are referring to AE Metering, which has three options in the menu. Multi-Segment, Spot-Metering and Center-Weighted. I've already tried all of these modes and there was no improvement.

=(

Hi,

The exposure settings available are shown in this description of the DS from elsewhere on the net:

"Choose from six distinctive exposure modes through a sophisticated exposure system: Program AE, Auto Picture, Picture, Shutter-priority, Aperture-priority, Manual, and Bulb. "

The exif shows two different things for exposure: Exposure Mode - which in the case of your photo says "manual" and "Exposure Program" which says Shutter Priority. The reason I'm questioning the settings is that on the "D" exif only shows one setting for exposure: "Exposure program", so I thought there must be two settings on the DS. Elsewhere on the net I read that setting the exposure mode to manual should only be used for non "A" (ie older) lenses.

I may be wrong about this whole thing as I've never seen a DS close up,but the exif definitely shows the exposure mode for you picture is manual, and that would seem to be the root of the problem.

However, as I don't have a DS I can't really help further, but perhaps you could look into how the camera is set....Or maybe a seaoned DS user could help....maybe the extra exif is actually meaningless? I don' know, but it WOULD make sens that your exposures are off if it's set to expose manually and you're not carrying out the procedure that allows the camera to meter in that mode.

Incedentally, when I referred to the AE lock button I didn't mean in the sense of it locking exposure which would be indicated by a , but its secondary function of stopping the lens down to meter in manual exposure mode.

Sorry if I've added more to the confusion

Jan

--
http://www.pbase.com/noisynoodle

Hi Jan,

noisynoodle said:

"Choose from six distinctive exposure modes through a sophisticated
exposure system: Program AE, Auto Picture, Picture,
Shutter-priority, Aperture-priority, Manual, and Bulb. "

Click to expand...

Yes, this is correct. I'm using Shutter Priority, indicated as Tv on the dial.

noisynoodle said:

The exif shows two different things for exposure: Exposure Mode -
which in the case of your photo says "manual" and "Exposure
Program" which says Shutter Priority. The reason I'm questioning
the settings is that on the "D" exif only shows one setting for
exposure: "Exposure program", so I thought there must be two
settings on the DS. Elsewhere on the net I read that setting the
exposure mode to manual should only be used for non "A" (ie older)
lenses.

Click to expand...

I think I follow what you are saying here. And you could well be onto something. When I view the EXIF information above, I do see "Exposure Program" and a blank beside it in the next column. Why is it blank in the next column? Is that what you mean when you say it says manual? Does a blank in that column tell you that it's manual?

If so, then I understand what you are saying and I can assure you I don't intend for it to be manual. The only thing I generally do manually is set the aperture or shutter priority. I want the camera to take it from there. On other photos, I see "Normal Program" beside the "Exposure Program" notation. Is this what's telling you I'm on manual?

noisynoodle said:

I may be wrong about this whole thing as I've never seen a DS close
up,but the exif definitely shows the exposure mode for you picture
is manual, and that would seem to be the root of the problem.

Click to expand...

Yes, I follow this and it makes perfect sense. Now how do I fix this?

noisynoodle said:

However, as I don't have a DS I can't really help further, but
perhaps you could look into how the camera is set....Or maybe a
seaoned DS user could help....maybe the extra exif is actually
meaningless? I don' know, but it WOULD make sens that your
exposures are off if it's set to expose manually and you're not
carrying out the procedure that allows the camera to meter in that
mode.

Click to expand...

Yep, understood. I'm willing to make the needed adjustment, but would rather not reset everything to factory defaults simply because I've had this problem since day 1 with the camera. I've done a lot of experimentation to try and get this right but as you can see I'm still struggling.

noisynoodle said:

Incedentally, when I referred to the AE lock button I didn't mean
in the sense of it locking exposure which would be indicated by a
, but its secondary function of stopping the lens down to meter in
manual exposure mode.

Click to expand...

I understand this. I didn't realize the AE-L button had that secondary function. But the star doesn't show in the display regardless, so that button shouldn't be the cause of any troubles unless I'm missing something.

noisynoodle said:

Sorry if I've added more to the confusion

Click to expand...

Well, I think I understand where you're coming from and hopefully you're onto something. This manual setting though, must be a factory default, because AFAIK I never set it that way except when actually using M mode. I've had this darkness problem all along, and now even the EV compensation isn't working as well as before.

Awaiting a solution...

Hi Railbus

railbus said:

2. The FZ20 my friend uses is also an SLR, yet he gets beautiful
results straight out of the camera, every time. He has been on the
DSLR thing for about as long as me, and we both came from the 35mm
SLR world.

Click to expand...

Is that the Panasonic FZ20 you are referring to? If it is, then it is not a SLR camera, it is a "prosumer" p&s camera. I have got one myself (my first camera) and I really like it.

Kenny

railbus said:

As for the lens being in the A
position, I verified this through the custom menu and that's how it
is set. I have it set for "Prohibited, Pictures cannot be taken
when the aperture ring position is other than A. So again, I
believe I'm ok there too.

Click to expand...

The great majority of us in this forum have "Using aperature ring" set to position 2 "Permitted". "Pictures can be taken even when aperture ring position is other than A".

This has no effect on anything except for the following:

(1) When using manual lenses without the A setting. Select an aperture setting on the lens, select M mode on the camera, focus (the lens will be wide open at this time regardless of your aperture setting on the lens), press the AE-L button (the camera stops down the lens, takes a reading, and sets the shutter speed), press the shutter (the camera stops down the lens to the setting on the lens, takes the photo at that setting). Lenses without the A setting can be used in the Av mode but will always be wide open no matter what you have the aperature ring set at.

(2) When using lenses with the A setting in a position other than A (the lens acts as if it is the same as (1) above).

(3) For all other lenses there is no effect.

That is why most of us in this forum set ours to setting 2 "Permitted" and just leave it there and forget it.

--

Ron ~ Retired, just taking it easy with life, and not getting bothered much by these brain excercises.

railbus said:

3. I am able to rectify the problems in most cases by importing the
image into Adobe Photo Deluxe and using the "Instant Fix" feature.
When I do so it brightens the photo. I guess everyone here refers
to this as PP, and have told me a few times that DSLR users should
expect to do some PP work. Question is, why does my friend, who
uses a Panasonic FZ20 have NONE of the darkness problems I'm
having? He gets nice, bright, sharp pictures everytime with NO PP
and I'm always getting this dark stuff and have to PP to get
passable results.

Click to expand...

If you don't want to any PP then I'm afraid you've bought the wrong camera.

To get more like your friend gets with his FZ20 right out of your camera and to make it so you have very little PP to do, then I suggest you make some changes in the settings of your camera according to the following.

(1) Always shoot in one of the modes other than P, Tv, Av, or M.

or

(2) In your menu set your Image Tone to bright, Saturation to +1, Contrast to +1 or +2, Sharpness to +1 or +2.
(3) Never shoot in RAW.

However, doing any of the above defeats the purpose of the buying of the DS in the first place and you end up with nothing more than a glorified P&S camera.

just my two cents worth.

--

Ron ~ Retired, just taking it easy with life, and not getting bothered much by these brain excercises.

Looked at your image and can sort of understand your frustration...
Don't want this...



More like this... (2 second correction in Corel PP)



but, and I was in the same boat as you when I bought my "D", I believe it is the "Pentax" way. A DSLR is a wonderful thing because it keeps you in control and you can automatically see the results. I used to only shoot slide film, and a pretty standard proceedure was to double the ISO (from say 200 to 400) to produce slides that would have looked like you original photo. Then have them push the development so as to get back to 200 and look like my corrected photo.
NOW I have to do it and can do it on a 1 to 1 basis, when needed.

I've never would have bought my camera if I felt I would let it "do everything" for me. Just not what I was looking for. I always wanted to have the control, the choices. All I ask of a camera is to give that to me.