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5D and the fate of APS and 4/3 DSLRs

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PalmsWestPhoto said:
Just like they abandoned OM and other things. Olys biggest problem
is their lack of understanding of the future.
Click to expand...
FourThirds is the most futuristic standard around.
PalmsWestPhoto said:
This is canon's strength. Back when canon decided to redo their
lens mount which seemed to be totally wrong ... was a pretty good
choice. Nikon stuck to their lens mount and had to work around
issues all the time, stuck to AF motors in camera (now they are
doing AFS) and the main argument was lens compatibility which in
nikon land doesnt exist. You need a list of lenses for each camera
with what you can and can not do. manual Nikon lenses can be used
on all canon cameras without any issues.
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That's just laughable - Canon DID abandon FD whereas Olympus DID NOT abandon OM. Do you recall Canon giving away FD-EOS adapters with their new cameras? Oympus did so with FourTHirds.
PalmsWestPhoto said:
Oly really needs to learn to look better into the future. Their
products are generally good quality but little things kill them.
Click to expand...
Competition is tough these days, Canon seem to be nailing it every time.

--
Seb
 
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
I'm sorry, but I still haven't seen any difference in Canon change
and Olympus change, except for the fact that Canon did it earlier,
and Olympus changed their whole system to digital at the same time.
Olympus stopped manufacturing OM lenses in 2003, E-1 was announced
the same year...
Click to expand...
How we all wish that canon as well as nikon would have stayed all
manual until 2003

they didnt create anything for years because the user base was gone
completely.

You must be working for olympus. this is hilarious ...
Click to expand...
You're REALLY flogging a dead horse here. Canon dropped FD for EOS with no route for users, Olympus handed out OM-FourThirds adaptors.

--
Seb
 
T3 said:
Lord Coe said:
T3 said:
I was talking about larger sensor formats, ie APS and FF, whereas
Oly's 4/3 sensor is much smaller.
Click to expand...
FourThirds is hardly 'much smaller' than DX - 18x13.5mm vs
23.7x15.7mm for DX.
Click to expand...
That's a fairly significant difference in size.
Click to expand...
Same ballpark.
T3 said:
T3 said:
T3 said:
Oly could have easily gone with
an APS sensor format, but they shunned it in the same way that Oly
stuck with manual focus on the OM and shunned autofocus.
Sometimes, going it alone simply means you end up...alone.
Click to expand...
So, basically, YOU are terrified of being different and thus you
condemn others for being so?
Click to expand...
No, I'm saying that small followings with small marketshare
typically result in smaller profits and less long-term viability.
Click to expand...
Plenty of businesses do it. Porsche is more profitable than Ford.
T3 said:
T3 said:
T3 said:
And it
also paints them into a corner because they'll have more of a
challenge producing high performance low noise sensors with higher
pixel counts because their chosen sensor format is so much smaller.
Click to expand...
Slighty smaller.
Click to expand...
Ah, but unlike the 4/3 system, other systems have the potential for
migrating to larger sensor formats because they still are based on
full frame lens systems. 4/3 is smaller, and is always going to be
smaller, with no prospect of ever using a larger sensor.
Click to expand...
DX and EF-S aren't migrating anywhere.
T3 said:
T3 said:
T3 said:
I think Oly would have been better off if they had simply:
A) gone autofocus in the film SLR era,
B) gone APS in the DSLR era, and
C) stuck with a lens system based on full frame lenses (like manual
OM lenses and-- hypothetically-- autofocus OM lenses) with the
option of smaller "digital specific" lenses just like all the other
brands are doing.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is that Olympus would be much better off if
they were Nikon?
Click to expand...
I think for the benefit of new and old Oly users, yes, they
probably would be. Nikon didn't recently post a 62% decline in
profits-- Oly did. And adopting future compatibility with full
frame lenses would have given them more long-term flexibility to
use larger sensors.
Click to expand...
The problem with that theory is that Nikon actually exists - having two Nikons in the market is pointless. And, for the thousandth time, FourThirds IS FULL FRAME.

--
Seb
 
T3 said:
The Oly 4/3 system is going to eventually meet the same fate as the
Oly OM film system. The OM system was a stubbornly manual focus
system in an autofocus age. It had a loyal and enthusiastic--
albeit small-- fanbase. Eventually, it just died out. Now Oly is
doing the same with the 4/3 system. They are stubbornly 4/3 in an
APS (and now FF) DSLR world. It has a loyal and enthusiastic--
albeit small-- fanbase. Eventually, it may see the same fate as
the Oly OM system. It's deja vu all over again.
Click to expand...
OM died out, so was Canon MF cameras, Nikon's too. Actually OM lived surprisingly long. Canon EOS film cameras are dying now. FF DSLRs surely will not live as long as AF film cameras. I do not belive they will live as long as APS-C DSLRs.
T3 said:
smaller than the E-300. Plus, not everyone WANTS small bodies and
lenses.
Click to expand...
There are 10 times more people prefer smaller cameras, long live the 1/1.8.
 
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
'Pro-spec' means 'a camera suitably equipped to be used every day
reliably', it doesn't mean super-high fps or anything else like
that. A Pentax LX is 'pro-spec'. You see?
Click to expand...
So if i take a pentax optio s60 and make it really rugged it is a
pro spec camera ?

didnt think so

reliable use by a professional requires more than just a rugged
body. It requires pro spec AF, metering, lenses and the whole nine
yards.
Click to expand...
Then the first pro-spec camera for White Balance was the E-1?

No pro spec means: reliable and useable in any situation. So build it tough. Use long life shutters (check), metal construction (check), weather seals (check), have multiple configurations stored (new for the digital age, check), lead the industry in some area (check).

Get with the program. Pro does not always mean fastest AF, nor fastest FPS. Pro is about reliability mainly.

Also, the group that were the primary upgrade crowd this was originally aimed at was the wedding photographer. The extra seals were just bonus points. They allowed it to be pointed to PJs. This has led to the camera being used in rough situations from mountain climbing to war zones.
 
Coe
Lord Coe said:
FourThirds is the most futuristic standard around.
Click to expand...
How is that so ? Because they make a smaller sensor. So why wouldnt an even smaller sensor be more 'futuristic'.

So the best for the future is a 4/3 sensor with 5MP and a lousy SNR in a body with consumer AF ?

Didnt think so
Lord Coe said:
That's just laughable - Canon DID abandon FD whereas Olympus DID
NOT abandon OM. Do you recall Canon giving away FD-EOS adapters
with their new cameras? Oympus did so with FourTHirds.
Click to expand...
Didnt know olympus was still cr4eating new OM lenses and new OM bodies. When was the last OM body created ?

There are canon FD to EOS adapters and they where available immediately after the EOS system came out.

Canon supports their FD system today more than Olympus supports their OM system.
Lord Coe said:
Competition is tough these days, Canon seem to be nailing it every
time.
Click to expand...
Thats not true either. But canon is very good at making choices.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
Morven said:
BJN said:
DX/D-APS is a viable format. It's still far less expensive while
providing excellent image quality. More DOF is an advantage in many
situations. There are better wide angle lens options for the
smaller format (witness the really miserable landscape image Canon
posted for the 5D). The tele reach of the smaller format is very
useful to many shooters.
Click to expand...
One has to say that the better wide angle options has more to do
with Canon not having good wide lenses than anything else. It
should be easier to get wide with a larger sensor size.
Click to expand...
In 35mm this is very true.
Morven said:
Morven said:
4/3 is another deal. It looks like Olympus is on its own with the
supposed "open" standard. The system is thin with expensive lenses
and no lenses with stabilization. The "e-volt" is bigger than the
compact D-APS cameras it competes with. The straw that Olympus
loyalists cling to is ultrasonic dust removal.
Click to expand...
Panasonic is rumored to be coming out with a 4/3 camera, according
to rumor. The E-300 isn't small, yes; but from all the people I've
heard complaining that the smallest APS-sensor cameras are too
small for them, perhaps Olympus listened to their market research.
Click to expand...
Actually, it was a press release, not a rumor.
 
Raxel said:
At last canon released 'affordable' full frame DSLR, another
revolutionary movement after they released frst affordable DSLR,
300D.

Some expectations:
-5D will have noise performance which at least equals 20D/1Dmk2 per
pixel.

Which means, 8M crop from 5D image will have roughly the same noise
level with 20D and 1Dmk2, which are current top performer. I expect
when downsampled to 8MP, even 5D's ISO 3200 image will equal
1Dmk2's ISO 1600 image, which also equals other 6MP DSLR's ISO 800
image. This translates into 2 stop noise advantage on other
consumer DSLRs, or a huge 3 stop noise advantage on four thirds
DSLRs.

-With 1:1 sensor, we can get swallower DOF with same lens.

An f2.8 zoom lens will have DOF of f1.8 prime lens used on 1.5X
DSLR, and an cheap 1.8 lens will have DOF of an ultra-expensive
f1.2 lens used on 1.5X DSLR.
Compared with four thirds system, even ultrafast 2.0 lenses cannot
match the DOF of a moderate f4 lens on 5D.

Sooner of later, all manufactures will release 1:1 DSLR with
$3000-$5000 range. APS DSLRs will survive with $500-1500 range, and
there are still special performance cropped-sensor cameras with
high shooting speed, such as D2h/x or 1Dmk2.

However I wonder who will buy 4/3 system. Main assumptions of 4/3
system is that 1:1 DSLR is astronomically expensive. APS DSLR users
can move to 1:1 with most of their lens, but 4/3 users should stick
to smaller sensor. They have releared f2 zooms, but they have no
advantage at all (DOF, shutter speed, weight) compared to 1:1 DSLR
with f2.8 zooms.
Click to expand...
--
--

'Does Phil live on this planet, or is he on his way here?'
(subtitle line in obscure 70s Indian movie :)
 
Coe
Lord Coe said:
That statement is not factually true, just likely.
Click to expand...
No this is fact. Larger sensor under same technology will always do this. In addition of course canon still has the best technology in terms of sensors too so ...
Lord Coe said:
Lord Coe said:
larger sensors allow more DOF control. Smaller sensors do not have
any ability to overcome this drawback.
Click to expand...
Again, as this is LENS dependent, not factually true.
Click to expand...
it is not but you dont seem to understand ...
Lord Coe said:
Lord Coe said:
Ah with the 5D i get about the same DOF as one can get with the E1
by simply cropping the same way and using the wider lens as well.
Click to expand...
You don't get ANYTHING with the 5D, because you don't have one.
Click to expand...
Now you are getting cranky arent you ?
Lord Coe said:
I'm sure they'll all be fascinated to hear their product roadmaps
spelled out here by you.
Click to expand...
If you had any idea you'd know that they already have roadmaps several years ahead not just the week you think forward.
Lord Coe said:
As far as I can see - sensor excepted - the 5D is the same or
slightly inferior to the 20D spec wise.
Click to expand...
Seems you cant read either. You may want to reread the specs again. Then come back...
Lord Coe said:
That's a ludicrous characterisation of a an optical manufaturer
with one of the proudest traditions in photography. How quickly did
they abandon OM? Is 10+ years impetuous, now? I worked with a
photographer who was using a pair of OM4Tis in 1993 for press work
  • those cameras were rock solid and still supprted by Olympus then
  • long after FD was forgotten at Canon.
Click to expand...
They abandoned their users when they wanted AF. Sure they where selling their stuff for a while longer but the users had to leave the system

i guess you still have a horse carriage too and think its great that the manufacturer still supports it while all others have switched to cars ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
Raxel said:
However I wonder who will buy 4/3 system. Main assumptions of 4/3
system is that 1:1 DSLR is astronomically expensive.
Click to expand...
I haven't made a definitive decision yet, but I think that I will be one who buys into the 4/3 system, even if 35mm FF gets less expensive; the main reasons are:
  • No sensor dust problems
  • No front/back focus problems
  • Smaller, lighter lenses for the same FOV
  • Better quality lenses for digital
  • Great ergonomics
  • I don't care about noise above ISO 800
  • Too many people use Canons
Thanks for worrying, but I'll be fine.

GB
 
Why don't we go tell all of the Pentax ~ Nikon Olympus ~ Fuji ~ KM users to switch to this beloved Canon system that you seem to think is for everyone. Funny how you all sit there and condemn Olympus for what they are doing but fall short of noticing what Canon is doing to you all. There is a lot to be said about people that sit around and point out the faults in others, but never look at their own shortcomings. Canon must be paying your rent, because there is NO system out there that deserves my loyality.

If Olympus doesn't stand a chance and will die off soon, why do you all feel it necessary to discuss them so much? That is what amazes me. Just let them die and we Olympus folks will have a proper funeral for them.

Cheers
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
You're REALLY flogging a dead horse here. Canon dropped FD for EOS
with no route for users, Olympus handed out OM-FourThirds adaptors.
Click to expand...
you are right. I see it now. Let me go tell all the canon nikon
pentax sigma and whatever else users so we can all switch to olympus

right .....

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
Click to expand...
--
-------------

'When the turbulence of distracting thoughts subside and the mind becomes still, a deep happiness naturally arises from within.' -- Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
 
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
'Pro-spec' means 'a camera suitably equipped to be used every day
reliably', it doesn't mean super-high fps or anything else like
that. A Pentax LX is 'pro-spec'. You see?
Click to expand...
So if i take a pentax optio s60 and make it really rugged it is a
pro spec camera ?

didnt think so
Click to expand...
Fujifilm Big Job!
PalmsWestPhoto said:
reliable use by a professional requires more than just a rugged
body. It requires pro spec AF, metering, lenses and the whole nine
yards.
Click to expand...
...all of which the E-1 has.

--
Seb
 
is nothing but a TROLL!!!! Troll Patrol at your service.
--
shinndigg
 
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
FourThirds is the most futuristic standard around.
Click to expand...
How is that so ? Because they make a smaller sensor. So why wouldnt
an even smaller sensor be more 'futuristic'.

So the best for the future is a 4/3 sensor with 5MP and a lousy SNR
in a body with consumer AF ?
Click to expand...
CONSUMER AF? It blows Canon away for accuracy!
PalmsWestPhoto said:
Didnt think so
PalmsWestPhoto said:
That's just laughable - Canon DID abandon FD whereas Olympus DID
NOT abandon OM. Do you recall Canon giving away FD-EOS adapters
with their new cameras? Oympus did so with FourTHirds.
Click to expand...
Didnt know olympus was still cr4eating new OM lenses and new OM
bodies. When was the last OM body created ?
Click to expand...
OM4Ti in the early '90s - when was the last FD body created? (It was the superb Canon T-90, in case you didn't know).
PalmsWestPhoto said:
There are canon FD to EOS adapters and they where available
immediately after the EOS system came out.
Click to expand...
Did Canon provide them free to EOS buyers?
PalmsWestPhoto said:
Canon supports their FD system today more than Olympus supports
their OM system.
Click to expand...
Bollox.

--
Seb
 
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
That statement is not factually true, just likely.
Click to expand...
No this is fact. Larger sensor under same technology will always do
this. In addition of course canon still has the best technology in
terms of sensors too so ...
Click to expand...
Don't larger photosites have HIGHER dark current noise?
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
larger sensors allow more DOF control. Smaller sensors do not have
any ability to overcome this drawback.
Click to expand...
Again, as this is LENS dependent, not factually true.
Click to expand...
it is not but you dont seem to understand ...
Click to expand...
I'm glad you agree - we make SOME progress at last.
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
Ah with the 5D i get about the same DOF as one can get with the E1
by simply cropping the same way and using the wider lens as well.
Click to expand...
You don't get ANYTHING with the 5D, because you don't have one.
Click to expand...
Now you are getting cranky arent you ?
Click to expand...
You're talking about a camera you know very little about. A press release? Some (pretty variable) sample JPEGs? Face it, you're talking out of your a rse.
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
I'm sure they'll all be fascinated to hear their product roadmaps
spelled out here by you.
Click to expand...
If you had any idea you'd know that they already have roadmaps
several years ahead not just the week you think forward.
Click to expand...
I'm sure they do, and I'm equally sure you don't have a clue what's on them.
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
As far as I can see - sensor excepted - the 5D is the same or
slightly inferior to the 20D spec wise.
Click to expand...
Seems you cant read either. You may want to reread the specs again.
Then come back...
Click to expand...
Meaning?
PalmsWestPhoto said:
PalmsWestPhoto said:
That's a ludicrous characterisation of a an optical manufaturer
with one of the proudest traditions in photography. How quickly did
they abandon OM? Is 10+ years impetuous, now? I worked with a
photographer who was using a pair of OM4Tis in 1993 for press work
  • those cameras were rock solid and still supprted by Olympus then
  • long after FD was forgotten at Canon.
Click to expand...
They abandoned their users when they wanted AF. Sure they where
selling their stuff for a while longer but the users had to leave
the system
Click to expand...
But they DID have an AF OM camera - do you not know ANYTHING about camera history?
PalmsWestPhoto said:
i guess you still have a horse carriage too and think its great
that the manufacturer still supports it while all others have
switched to cars ...
Click to expand...
What a fabulous metaphor!

--
Seb
 
Well, there's also the matter of the 150mm f/2.0, which in reach, speed, and DOF is the equivalent of the Canon 200mm f/2.8L on a 1.6x body. What exactly are they thinking selling it for $2000+ vs. the $700 Canon?

That said, the other Olympus lenses seem reasonably priced.
 
See thats the difference

i didnt say that the canon system is the only one the best one bla bla bla ... that is you guys (blind brand loyalty)

I think the olympus system even though the sensor choice wasnt a good one IMO will still work allthough in a small market

Nikon has good equipment and so does canon. Pentax again has a smaller market and so does minolta. Minolta is one of the saddest ones because they had some really great equipment.

the new lens shows again that oly's size claims is all just marketing bs. Oly throws around a lot of this and then cant back it up

They make a 35-100 F2 and it is huge and heavy and will come in at more than double the price of a 70-200 F2.8 with IS. Ouch thats gotta hurt

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
Nox
NoTx said:
Then the first pro-spec camera for White Balance was the E-1?
Click to expand...
You may not realize this but cameras with white balance exist fo quite a while and a lot of them do better than the E1
NoTx said:
No pro spec means: reliable and useable in any situation. So build
it tough. Use long life shutters (check), metal construction
(check), weather seals (check), have multiple configurations stored
(new for the digital age, check), lead the industry in some area
(check).
Get with the program. Pro does not always mean fastest AF, nor
fastest FPS. Pro is about reliability mainly.
Click to expand...
Sure whatever you think that will make you love Oly ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
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