Crazy new law in Wisconsin

If I could, I would, I wonder if it could have been a strangely
distorted version of this...
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2001/data/AB-407.pdf

Which is actually more interesting, it seems to prohibit digital
photos as being used as evidence. Guess film isn't dead yet.
The bill seems to have been introduced, but doesn't seem to have gone anywhere yet. Very weird, and the sort of thing that will fall apart if anybody bothers to hold a hearing on it.

The general rule is that NO photo is allowed into evidence, unless there is a person who can testify from personal knowledge that it fairly represents the scene, and it's hard to see why digital photography should be disregarded under appropriate circumstances.

On the other hand, if that bill passes without change, the media will love it. Nobody will ever bother to subpoena their photos again - they'd be inadmissable even if they were provided.
 
Interesting dialogue, Matti.
Seems very fair.

But what really caught my eye was at the end.

Are you saying there is a law being proposed in France that would prohibit taking any pictures unless they depicted only the sea and the sky?

That's what makes me so mad at Europe sometimes.

Just when we come up with something weird, Europe always comes up with something Totally Absurd! Vive La France.

It's just not fair. We should be allowed to come up with a more absurd law than Europe!

I would assume that both "proposals" here are not about to become laws. ;> )

Homer
I just cought a short blurb on the news last night. What they said
was that a law was proposed to make it "illegal to digitally modify
a photo of someone". The example that they gave was putting
somebody's head on another body ...
This is concidered as a long introduction to the analysis of the
case Bryan Biggers brought to our attention:

I am writing this from very far from you... that is from Finland.
This is what I comprehend from our laws regarding to publication of
photographic images. This may be in line with many other
(civilized) countries.

I suppose taking pictures for private use only is quite free as a
contrast to strict but sensible rules of publishing them. The
rules presented here apply at least for the latter.

The photographer can publish and make publicly available any
pictures he has taken in public places and situations. Public
places include any streets, parks, stores, malls, events etc. that
are open to general public free or with an admission fee. The
people shown in such pictures cannot oppose of publishing those
pictures (but in certain rare cases explained later).

The line is draw to private areas. Without approval of all parties
you cannot publish any pictures of private gardens, inside of
peoples houses, hotel rooms (other than yours), or anything where
people live e.g. pictures presenting people in their homes, inside
mobile homes are restricted (even when taken from public area
through windows etc.). Visitors in private homes are protected just
like the permanent residents. Cars are not general places for
housing so it is not restricted to take&publish pictures of people
driving their cars. All this doesn't restrict publishing pictures
of the outside walls of the peoples houses as seen from the
public places like streets. Just don't use long tele to capture
people as seen through windows & publish the pictures.

Toilets, fitting rooms in shops, changing rooms in swimming pools
and beaches and similar places with more needs for intimacy are
concidered as private areas too. Taking photos there even for
private use only is prohibited. Makes sense.

Private events where participants are invited are concidered no-go
situations for publishing except when the participants are very
well aware of the possibility (marked press people with cameras in
their hands are present).

Now I am getting closer to the point. It is NOT OK if a clearly
regognized John-Average-person in a picture taken in a public place
would be hugely humiliated if it is published. Harsh example,
sorry: if his fly zip is open and his ***** is clearly seen and the
picture includes his recognizable face, picture cannot be
published. This rule doesn't apply to celebrities. They need to
accept more than the average person. This means paparazzi pictures
are legal in this respect.

Finally, the "head-body digitally modified photo" problem. In
Finland, at least, two rules apply. First: You need an approval of
a person in the image (written, preferably) for publishing a
picture taken in a private place (private? > see above). Second:
You cannot release a picture where the recognisable
Joan-Average-person is presented in a humiliating situation,
modified body or not. Notice, Britney Spears is a celebrity:
publishing fake nudes of her is not restricted (but is it any good
for us as civilized people?)

In Finland, it is not restricted to digitally or by other means
modify (and publish) a photo taken in public place from
recognizable John-Dough-person if it is done without humiliating
him. And I suppose it never will be.

Last word about common sense and sensibility. How would you feel if
someone, girl- or boyfriend or else, would do you something like
the man did for her ex-woman?

Matti J.

P.S. In France, in the future, people are allowed take "pictures of
the sky and the sea only". But they fighting hard against these
proposed laws. I think they'll come to their senses in the end.
 
If I could, I would, I wonder if it could have been a strangely
distorted version of this...
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2001/data/AB-407.pdf

Which is actually more interesting, it seems to prohibit digital
photos as being used as evidence. Guess film isn't dead yet.
The bill seems to have been introduced, but doesn't seem to have
gone anywhere yet. Very weird, and the sort of thing that will
fall apart if anybody bothers to hold a hearing on it.

The general rule is that NO photo is allowed into evidence, unless
there is a person who can testify from personal knowledge that it
fairly represents the scene, and it's hard to see why digital
photography should be disregarded under appropriate circumstances.

On the other hand, if that bill passes without change, the media
will love it. Nobody will ever bother to subpoena their photos
again - they'd be inadmissable even if they were provided.
The bill's authors must be totally ignorant of the workings of all modern equipment. I don't think that they realize that their bill would prohibit evidence from every video camera made in the last 20 years; every modern surveillance camera in a bank, store, ATM or squad car that stores images on a hard drive or digital tape, every TV news camera and most home cameras, every phone conversation, body mic or wire tap or modern answering machine or voice mail. In fact, even prints from film at Wal-Mart probably go through a digital printer now when being printed. Imagine how many criminals would go free without the ability to admit evidence into court that had ever been stored numerically at one time. No more frame by frame analysis of bank robbery videos. Heck, even DNA tests are read digitally now. Whoa, what about DOCUMENTS aren't THEY stored digitally now? How about a Xerox machine, modern ones store a digital image. The list goes on and on, this bill would only permit eyewitness testimony I guess.

I think that I'll write a letter. Bryan
 
The bill's authors must be totally ignorant of the workings of all
modern equipment. [etc.]
Dunno what applies in the US, Bryan, but I've long been intrigued that in Australia you'll virtually never find that a tender will be accepted by fax; and it's rare that even a preliminary submission is permitted by this route. There's been no change evident since the spread of plain paper fax machines, which tends to rule out fading issues as the reason. On the other hand, fax is widely used for law court traffic.

More for entertainment, here's a page with links to descriptions of many ancient US absurd statutes:
http://www.webcrawler.com/games/pc_games/games_by_genre/trivia/world_wide_weird/
and some recent ones:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/smartboard/decline/badlaws.htm

The only odd one I've seen with my own eyes is a Victorian road law that imposes NO speed limit upon the driver of a snowplough while engaged in clearing snow!

Mike
 
The words about the France is in quotes. That actually is a quotation but it just expressed the feelings of the french people dealing with the proposed laws. Don't take them literally. The situation is still quite serious and absurd and so is the expression.
But what really caught my eye was at the end.

Are you saying there is a law being proposed in France that would
prohibit taking any pictures unless they depicted only the sea and
the sky?

That's what makes me so mad at Europe sometimes.
Just when we come up with something weird, Europe always comes up
with something Totally Absurd! Vive La France.
It's just not fair. We should be allowed to come up with a more
absurd law than Europe!

I would assume that both "proposals" here are not about to become
laws. ;> )

Homer
I just cought a short blurb on the news last night. What they said
was that a law was proposed to make it "illegal to digitally modify
a photo of someone". The example that they gave was putting
somebody's head on another body ...
This is concidered as a long introduction to the analysis of the
case Bryan Biggers brought to our attention:

I am writing this from very far from you... that is from Finland.
This is what I comprehend from our laws regarding to publication of
photographic images. This may be in line with many other
(civilized) countries.

I suppose taking pictures for private use only is quite free as a
contrast to strict but sensible rules of publishing them. The
rules presented here apply at least for the latter.

The photographer can publish and make publicly available any
pictures he has taken in public places and situations. Public
places include any streets, parks, stores, malls, events etc. that
are open to general public free or with an admission fee. The
people shown in such pictures cannot oppose of publishing those
pictures (but in certain rare cases explained later).

The line is draw to private areas. Without approval of all parties
you cannot publish any pictures of private gardens, inside of
peoples houses, hotel rooms (other than yours), or anything where
people live e.g. pictures presenting people in their homes, inside
mobile homes are restricted (even when taken from public area
through windows etc.). Visitors in private homes are protected just
like the permanent residents. Cars are not general places for
housing so it is not restricted to take&publish pictures of people
driving their cars. All this doesn't restrict publishing pictures
of the outside walls of the peoples houses as seen from the
public places like streets. Just don't use long tele to capture
people as seen through windows & publish the pictures.

Toilets, fitting rooms in shops, changing rooms in swimming pools
and beaches and similar places with more needs for intimacy are
concidered as private areas too. Taking photos there even for
private use only is prohibited. Makes sense.

Private events where participants are invited are concidered no-go
situations for publishing except when the participants are very
well aware of the possibility (marked press people with cameras in
their hands are present).

Now I am getting closer to the point. It is NOT OK if a clearly
regognized John-Average-person in a picture taken in a public place
would be hugely humiliated if it is published. Harsh example,
sorry: if his fly zip is open and his ***** is clearly seen and the
picture includes his recognizable face, picture cannot be
published. This rule doesn't apply to celebrities. They need to
accept more than the average person. This means paparazzi pictures
are legal in this respect.

Finally, the "head-body digitally modified photo" problem. In
Finland, at least, two rules apply. First: You need an approval of
a person in the image (written, preferably) for publishing a
picture taken in a private place (private? > see above). Second:
You cannot release a picture where the recognisable
Joan-Average-person is presented in a humiliating situation,
modified body or not. Notice, Britney Spears is a celebrity:
publishing fake nudes of her is not restricted (but is it any good
for us as civilized people?)

In Finland, it is not restricted to digitally or by other means
modify (and publish) a photo taken in public place from
recognizable John-Dough-person if it is done without humiliating
him. And I suppose it never will be.

Last word about common sense and sensibility. How would you feel if
someone, girl- or boyfriend or else, would do you something like
the man did for her ex-woman?

Matti J.

P.S. In France, in the future, people are allowed take "pictures of
the sky and the sea only". But they fighting hard against these
proposed laws. I think they'll come to their senses in the end.
 
What I meant to say was this: The quotation was not an excerpt of a proposed legal text.

One other example from a published documentary photo series as seen in a Finnish camera magazine ("Kameralehti"). The series was about Finnish celebrating the Mid Summer Festival. And people were drunk in all pictures. But that is not concidered humiliating situation (oh, yes they humiliating themselves, but that doesn't count). There was one photo where a man was mating with his woman on a beach in a "dog-style". I suppose the lovers didn't notice any camera man behind them and they though they were totally alone. The legal aspect: The place was public beach, so it is OK to take photos. But the situation was highly intimate and thus the publishing such pictures could be humiliating? Only could because no faces were seen so the couple could be anybody and the publishing is still OK.
Interesting dialogue, Matti.
Seems very fair.

But what really caught my eye was at the end.

Are you saying there is a law being proposed in France that would
prohibit taking any pictures unless they depicted only the sea and
the sky?
....
Matti J.

P.S. In France, in the future, people are allowed take "pictures of
the sky and the sea only". But they fighting hard against these
proposed laws. I think they'll come to their senses in the end.
 
On behalf of houseplants everywhere, I deeply resent the implication that we are no more intelligent thant TV "journalists." The comment is very insensitive.
While I cannot say whether or not this particular news story was
accurate, if Wisconsin local TV stations hire the same blow-dried
morons that California TV stations do, I would not be surprised if
the reporter got some or all of his/her facts wrong. All too many
of these TV "journalists" have the intellectual depth of
houseplants.
 
In Finland, if you take a picture in a public place, it is OK to publish it in any situation (as art, documentary, commercial purpose) if it is not humiliating the people seen in the photo or connecting the people to an unjustified statement (as in advertisements).

An example: Imagine picture taken from street involving lots of people. Some of the people are even recognizable by face. Just like bigjohn stated (on the other thread), the photo could be used in photojournalism, in education etc. but in Finland you could use the photo also for commercial purposes if certain criteria is met.

If it is clearly seen that it is just a random picture involving random people in a public place and the advertisement where it is used doesn't make any unjustified or other claims about the people seen in the picture, there is no basis for legal actions.

An unjustified statement in an ad would be: "These people are all using our cameras." And approriate statement next to the photo would be: "With our cameras you take pictures of your life. See for your self."

On the other hand, if the people (faces) in the photo are digitally or else manipulated into non-recognizable shape/form, the advertising text could make "any" claims.

Fine tuning the subject: If only a few people or person are tighly framed in the picture and/or the well recognized person (by face) is actually watching into the camera when the shot is taken, it is concidered that the picture is too much "composed" and connects the people to the advertising campaign too tightly and thus gives an overall impression of the people "supporting" the campaign.

Matti J.
I just cought a short blurb on the news last night. What they said
was that a law was proposed to make it "illegal to digitally modify
a photo of someone". The example that they gave was putting
somebody's head on another body (hey, I NEED either a new head or a
body!). I wonder how far sweeping this will be and how they are
going to enforce it, etc. That is all I know, maybe someone else
knows more.

Bryan
 
This is quite interesting if you juxtapose digital imaging not being admissable as evidence and the recent imposition of Ybor City (a suburb of Tampa, Florida USA) installing video cameras to watch for the bad guys... or cameras used to capture license plates of drivers evading toll booths without paying. Cause for thought.

Dennis
http://www.DigitalSauces.com
If I could, I would, I wonder if it could have been a strangely
distorted version of this...
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2001/data/AB-407.pdf

Which is actually more interesting, it seems to prohibit digital
photos as being used as evidence. Guess film isn't dead yet.
The bill seems to have been introduced, but doesn't seem to have
gone anywhere yet. Very weird, and the sort of thing that will
fall apart if anybody bothers to hold a hearing on it.

The general rule is that NO photo is allowed into evidence, unless
there is a person who can testify from personal knowledge that it
fairly represents the scene, and it's hard to see why digital
photography should be disregarded under appropriate circumstances.

On the other hand, if that bill passes without change, the media
will love it. Nobody will ever bother to subpoena their photos
again - they'd be inadmissable even if they were provided.
The bill's authors must be totally ignorant of the workings of all
modern equipment. I don't think that they realize that their bill
would prohibit evidence from every video camera made in the last 20
years; every modern surveillance camera in a bank, store, ATM or
squad car that stores images on a hard drive or digital tape, every
TV news camera and most home cameras, every phone conversation,
body mic or wire tap or modern answering machine or voice mail. In
fact, even prints from film at Wal-Mart probably go through a
digital printer now when being printed. Imagine how many criminals
would go free without the ability to admit evidence into court that
had ever been stored numerically at one time. No more frame by
frame analysis of bank robbery videos. Heck, even DNA tests are
read digitally now. Whoa, what about DOCUMENTS aren't THEY stored
digitally now? How about a Xerox machine, modern ones store a
digital image. The list goes on and on, this bill would only permit
eyewitness testimony I guess.

I think that I'll write a letter. Bryan
 
On the other hand, if that bill passes without change, the media
will love it. Nobody will ever bother to subpoena their photos
again - they'd be inadmissable even if they were provided.
That last statement you made is probably incorrect. If passed in it's current form, the bill might may digital photographs, or scanned photos inadmissible at trial. It doesn't mention limitations on pre-trial discovery of digitial photos.

In California civil cases for example, the scope of discovery allows you to seek any information that is reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. Evidence that might be inadmissible and trial is still subject to subpoena for pre-trial purposes.
 
I think this is mainly caused by cheese, Peter. And as for changing the beer recipe, WELL...that would be a crime!

Scotty
I guess Wisconsin wishes to be let go from that horrible, binding,
"freedom of expression" thing those old guys put into the
Constitution as ammendments. Next, they will be limiting how much
you can change the recipe for beer...

-iNova
 
Interesting dialogue, Matti.
Seems very fair.

But what really caught my eye was at the end.

Are you saying there is a law being proposed in France that would
prohibit taking any pictures unless they depicted only the sea and
the sky?
Hi

There is not such a law (though we have a lot of stupid laws in France) but some local courts gave right :

to the owner of the volcano who asked for royalties for a landscape picture in the "chaîne des volcans" in auvergne.

to the owner of a house in a picture which could be seen in a landscape picture in the "Golfe du Morbihan" (a superb inner see in Bretagne)

They fortunately lost their case in appeal, due to the media mobilization.

But there is a law which prohibits without authorisation pics of persons who could be a violation of their private life.

It has become a profitable business for "stars" of the show business to sue people's or trash press, if not a new way of promotion...
 
I assume this is because it's just too easy to manipulate those "numerical digits"? Lord knows that never happens with conventional film images. Or maybe just not in Wisconsin.

Personally, I know in my heart those fairy photos and that missing link portrait were real. The Brittany Spears nudes I'm not so sure about.

Scotty

p.s. I have to give Wisconsin a bad time, you know. In Minnesota we're required to by law. Or is that Iowans?? I'll have to check and get back to you.
I did a search and the Milwaukee Journal site doesn't say anything
about it. I also searched Yahoo and several other places. Can you
please find a local source for the ACTUAL story. Thanks.
If I could, I would, I wonder if it could have been a strangely
distorted version of this...
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2001/data/AB-407.pdf

Which is actually more interesting, it seems to prohibit digital
photos as being used as evidence. Guess film isn't dead yet.
Bryan
 
It doesn't mention
limitations on pre-trial discovery of digitial photos.
... which is exactly why such a law wouldn't directly affect systems like the "perpfinder" computer cameras used in Florida and the UK.

Too bad the people behind this legislation are so deeply clueless about the much poorer performance of alternatives to photography -- say, "eyewitness accounts," which are much less likely to be accurate than a photo. At least the photo will look the same after it's been lying in a file folder for a week!
 
I love near San Diego, California and we are currently going through a pretty nasty controversy over red light cameras. I haven't paid to much attention to the technology, but I am assuming the cameras are digitial images.

A court recently ruled that the use of the camera system was constitutional, but the City of San Diego is operating them in an illegal manner. The camera is supposed take a picture when you run a red light. The photos are screened by the third party that installed the cameras. Potential violations are forwarded to the San Diego Police Department and SDPD sends out the ticket. The third party vendor gets the owner registration info from the Department of Motor Vehicles and provides it to the police.

I don't know know about the reliability of the technology itself, but the cameras are supposed to be operated by the SDPD, not a third party vendor. Furthermore, they were being paid a fee that was based on the number of convictions, which is also a no-no under California law.

Litigation is still pending on the legality and use of the cameras, so I will keep all interested parties posted. There is even kind of a funny feud going on between to local talk radio hosts, one who opposes and one who supports the cameras.
It doesn't mention
limitations on pre-trial discovery of digitial photos.
... which is exactly why such a law wouldn't directly affect
systems like the "perpfinder" computer cameras used in Florida and
the UK.

Too bad the people behind this legislation are so deeply clueless
about the much poorer performance of alternatives to photography --
say, "eyewitness accounts," which are much less likely to be
accurate than a photo. At least the photo will look the same after
it's been lying in a file folder for a week!
 
While I cannot say whether or not this particular news story was
accurate, if Wisconsin local TV stations hire the same blow-dried
morons that California TV stations do, I would not be surprised if
the reporter got some or all of his/her facts wrong. All too many
of these TV "journalists" have the intellectual depth of
houseplants.
Harrison;
Please don't denigrate the intellectual depth of my houseplants!
 
On the other hand, if that bill passes without change, the media
will love it. Nobody will ever bother to subpoena their photos
again - they'd be inadmissable even if they were provided.
That last statement you made is probably incorrect. If passed in
it's current form, the bill might may digital photographs, or
scanned photos inadmissible at trial. It doesn't mention
limitations on pre-trial discovery of digitial photos.
Sorry - I was thinking only of the efforts of prosecutors, not use in civil litigation. The latter tends to be a pain, the former routinely becomes almost a Constitutional crisis whenever it's attempted.
 
Carl --

It may be nastier than this mere legal technicality. There's been an allegation that the yellow light time was extended on one particular new RLC installation, singled out for monitoring in order to prove RLCs' effectiveness as a deterrent. Longer yellow = fewer infringements, therefore camera = GOOD as a deterrent. All other locations, it is alleged, routinely had the yellow time reduced instead at installation time, to maximise infringements and penalty dollars. Decide for yourself:

http://freedom.house.gov

Mike
I love near San Diego, California and we are currently going
through a pretty nasty controversy over red light cameras.
... but the cameras are supposed to be operated by the SDPD, not a
third party vendor.
 
Unfortunately, the link that you posted was based at least in part on misleading testimony by a San Diego talk show host that also got booted out of office as mayor after a felony conviction. Yes, there were allegations that some of the sensors were moved at 3 of the 19 intersections and that did happend without notice to the San Diego Police Department. There were also allegations (but no proof) of altered yellow light timing. For the full facts, I suggest the following:

http://www.rogerhedgecock.com (web site of San Diego talk show host/former mayor that is opposed to red light cameras)

http://www.760kfmb.com/personalities/rick_roberts/rick.shmtl (web site of San Diego talk show host in favor of red light cameras)

http://www.alexdandrialawlibrary.com (web site to read rulings of San Diego judge on red light cameras)
It may be nastier than this mere legal technicality. There's been
an allegation that the yellow light time was extended on one
particular new RLC installation, singled out for monitoring in
order to prove RLCs' effectiveness as a deterrent. Longer yellow =
fewer infringements, therefore camera = GOOD as a deterrent. All
other locations, it is alleged, routinely had the yellow time
reduced instead at installation time, to maximise infringements and
penalty dollars. Decide for yourself:

http://freedom.house.gov

Mike
I love near San Diego, California and we are currently going
through a pretty nasty controversy over red light cameras.
... but the cameras are supposed to be operated by the SDPD, not a
third party vendor.
 
;-)
I did a search and the Milwaukee Journal site doesn't say anything
about it. I also searched Yahoo and several other places. Can you
please find a local source for the ACTUAL story. Thanks.
 

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