S2 Owners: low light/zoom focus/dig. zoom capabilities vs. FZ5?

flaash

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I just got done reading the S2 / Panasonic FZ5 thread (whew), and I'll admit I'm another one of those fence riders, wondering which one I should go with.

Actually, I just got my S2 from Dell, but am thinking about either sending it back or listing it on Ebay (blasphemy??).

I've read plenty on both of these models and understand their limitations. I currently own an Olympus CZ-750 and the lack of image stabilization is becoming more painful to endure.

I often use the Oly in low-light situations (at long zoom and often in conjunction with the digital zoom), such as concerts and similar dim-lighted events.

Here's what I need to know from you S2 owners:

How does this camera perform in such low-light scenarios, especially when you're zooming in quite a bit? Especially important is how quickly and accurately the camera focuses in this type of situation, is there a lot of "focus hunt" at long zoom and in low light? Yeah, I know I can use the pre-focus lock method, but I need to get an idea of how fast this camera responds "spontaneously" in these situations, when you just push the shutter button and try to capture the moment.

And how detailed are images where the digital zoom was used, even at the max range? I use the digital zoom on the Oly quite a bit and I think it performs quite well, even under adverse lighting conditions.

From what I'ver read of the Panasonic FZ5, it appears to do quite well and it's response/focus times are relatively quick under adverse lighting conditions. Plus the digital zoom appears to be pretty decent, with the Leica lens.

The reason I'm asking S2 owners these questions is because I haven't seen much here about the S2's performance in these areas. The S2 seems to have the clear advantage in the "features" department vs. the FZ5, especially in video mode.

But how does it perform in NON-DAYLIGHT conditions?

I need a camera that's going to give me consistent PHOTO results under the aforementioned lighting & zoom conditions (within the camera's limitations) and that's why I thought I'd pick the brains of you S2 owners who have taken pictures under these conditions.

So here's the scenario: You're attending the Paul McCartney concert at the local event center and you're seated in the upper balcony, but fairly close to the stage. You can zoom way in to get Paul by himself, but of course the stage lighting (or lack thereof) is reeking havoc with your exposure and shutter times. You decide to bump the ISO up to 200 and even 400, to help increase shutter speeds, while realizing this will bump up the noise level as well. You occasionally engage the digital zoom to capture Paul closeup as he walks toward your end of the stage.

You've got your choice between a Canon S2 and a Panasonic FZ5 to capture these once-in-a-lifetime moments, under "much less than ideal" photgraphic conditions.

Which camera would you choose??

(And don't tell me a DSLR - stick to the choices!!)
 
ufff

I love my S2, but in this "Paul McCartney scenario" you're describing, I would go for a FZ5. Sad but true.

Just one thing, don't expect miracles with the FZ5, but I think, it would be a more capable camera under those situations, not much, but better.

and one other thing, no point & shoot camera (both S2 and FZ5 are) will give you the perfect result for concert photos, yes, some are better than others, but not perfect; for that kind of shots, guess what?..you need a pricey D-SLR

Barusch
Canon A80, Canon S2 IS
 
I agreed with Essie, You need a DSLR for your desired.
--
Canon 2S IS, Kodak DX.7590 ,Sony P72. Shooting at leisure times.
 
Why would the FZ5 give better pictures under these conditions? Is it the constant F2.8?
 
Neither are great choices in the evening. Both would be great in the daytime.

At ISO 400 the FZ will do a bit better in terms of detail, but neither are intended for regular ISO 400 use.

You'd just have to hope the stage lights are very bright... I've seen good night baseball pics with the S2, but that because the stadium lights make it almost like daytime...

I bet I could get a good shot or two if I prepared properly. I would bring my S2 with c-180 tele (700+mm optical zoom) and either sneak in a monopod, or bring a string attatched to a 1/8" bolt screwed into the tripod socket. Stepping on the string acts lile a monopod for a bit more stability or just brace myself really well.

I would prefocus on the microphone (with AF then use the MF button to lock the focus) or with the FZ I would have to use sspot focus (slower speed mode for accuracy.) I would either use burst mode of 1 sec custom countdown to minimize the shake from me hitting the shutter.

Instead of ISO 400, I would use Indoor mode (roughly ISO 200), no flash, center weighted and set EV compensation to -2. This would give me effectively ISO 800 after I lighten in post processing, but avoids some of the cameras heavy handed in-camer NR at ISO 400.

I would try to capture Paul when he is still- sort of locked in a pose, like when he leans out while singing. This will minimize blur from him moving.

I would fill a 1GB card with 600 shots, with the hope that I can come out with 10-15 keepers.

Beside the differing focus stratagies, I don't beleive the FZ or S2 would bet very different in this circumstance.
TK
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Sounds like you want a FZ5 because you mostly mention low-light performance than video capture.

What happened to the Sony H1? If you ask me, the picture quality is pretty good (maybe better than S2 under default settings), plus the video quality is okay. From reading the forum, both the H1 and S2 has some problems with hunting at full telephoto view. From reviews, the AF-assist beam is farer on the H1, by 2ft. Plus, I saw someone posted stage speech pictures with the H1 with only stage spotlight at the person and it came out nice and clear.

I have a Canon A75 and my S2 is coming tomorrow (can't wait!!!). Just in time for next week's anime convention! WAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go for the FZ5, it seems it has faster focus in low-light and much higher quality photos than the S2. For video capture, well...you know, not much there.

If I had the same situation as you, I would have gone DSLR all the way, but that's just me.
 
How about a G6 + mini-tripod + tele-converter? Or maybe one of the new Fujis? (They're supposed to have decent high-ISO modes). OK, you said stick to S2 vs. FZ5, which I can't answer since I've never owned a Z5. Actually, though, a mini-tripod is a good idea either way if you have access to a solid surface. How far away from stage are you? Do they allow flash photography? Maybe you can get yourself a nice powerful slave flash and illuminate the stage... (I guess it would be firing all the time since there are lots of other flashes going off from other cameras :)

And while you're at the concert, wouldn't it be fun to shoot a couple of movies with stereo sound on your S2? OK, so low light performance in movie mode isn't perfect, but actually, I find it better than the low light performance of the low end Panasonic line (GS19-35), which is supposed to have better than average low light performance compared to camcorders in that price bracket!

Seppo57
 
I was hoping an S2 owner who has used their camera in similar situations would weigh in and perhaps post a photo or two.

I should have added to my scenario that ideally, the camera would fit in a pants or coat pocket (or the wife/girlfriend's purse?) without attracting too much attention, since most of these event centers prohibit photography at concerts anyway. That pretty much rules out toting along a DSLR, and probably gives the advantage to the FZ5, which looks to be smaller than the S2.

I am fully aware of the limitations of these long zoom point and shoot digicams compared to the advantages of a DSLR. I just want to walk in, whip out my trusty little all-in-one long zoomer and start firing away.

It appears the FZ5 might have the edge here, but that's why I wanted to hear from S2 owners who have experienced shooting in similar situations. Was the camera responsive, did it capture focus quickly, was the digital zoom useable? What were the results? More "missed" shots than captured?

Perhaps TK is right, just fire away with a 1GB SD card and hope for a small percentage of useable shots.

If that's the way to approach it, which camera do you think would have the higher percentage of decent shots??

Thanks again.
 
TK,

Yeah, I saw those FZ5 photos of Lothar's FZ5 awhile back, thanks for the link to remind me how excellent they are!

He must have been fairly close to the stage when he took those, as it appears the digital zoom was not used at all.

I was hoping someone with an S2 would post a link to similar photos. I really would like to see how it does under similar conditions.

S2 owners, anyone??
 
I was hoping an S2 owner who has used their camera in similar
situations would weigh in and perhaps post a photo or two.
Not sure if this will help, but there was a thread a while back where someone asked for advice on the S2 in a concert setting with follow-up discussion about the results. Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1010&message=14250213
I should have added to my scenario that ideally, the camera would
fit in a pants or coat pocket (or the wife/girlfriend's purse?)
without attracting too much attention, since most of these event
centers prohibit photography at concerts anyway. That pretty much
rules out toting along a DSLR, and probably gives the advantage to
the FZ5, which looks to be smaller than the S2.
Well, the FZ5 is black, so that will be an added advantage in the dark, though if you plan to hold the camera up against your face, a skin colored camera would be best :)
I am fully aware of the limitations of these long zoom point and
shoot digicams compared to the advantages of a DSLR. I just want to
walk in, whip out my trusty little all-in-one long zoomer and start
firing away.

It appears the FZ5 might have the edge here, but that's why I
wanted to hear from S2 owners who have experienced shooting in
similar situations. Was the camera responsive, did it capture focus
quickly, was the digital zoom useable? What were the results? More
"missed" shots than captured?
Regarding the focus, why not use manual focus? The distance to the mike or the piano isn't going to change, and though I'm not a huge McCartney follower, I assume he isn't much of a dancer?
Perhaps TK is right, just fire away with a 1GB SD card and hope for
a small percentage of useable shots.
There was another thread where it was reported that second and third shots in high speed burst mode on the S2 were usually sharper. Not sure whether that's true on the FZ5, but it might be a useful technique to make sure you get some sharp images.
 
Not sure if this will help, but there was a thread a while back
where someone asked for advice on the S2 in a concert setting with
follow-up discussion about the results. Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1010&message=14250213
I would take this with a grain of salt. The advice from everyone was pretty good, but the photographer was admittedly new to this, so the poor results doesn't mean the S2 is neccessarily incapable to reproduce what Lothar posted (he obviously is talented.)

As I said before, I don't think any scene taken at ISO 100, 1/60, F3.3 that Lothar used was really a low light setting. Thats the same speed the camera uses for flash photos, so it was that bright onstage. That's not to take away from his shots, but they weren't really low light shots. For comparison, my office requires 6/10th of a sec at F3.5 and ISO 100. This is 10X slower (3.5 stops) than the conditions Lothar was shooting under.
Well, the FZ5 is black, so that will be an added advantage in the
dark, though if you plan to hold the camera up against your face, a
LOL, maybe this will be the next step in digicam technology, image stabilization with cloaking technology.
TK
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http://tk-gallery.smugmug.com/
Coupon: http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=3axwzVifLgTQw
 
If you follow the thread with Lothar's wonderful concert pictures you will find that a key to his great exposure is that he used SPOT metering. He said he was about 30 meters from the stage and used P mode with spot exposure metering. Apparently, the concert hall was dark except for the spot and floods directed at the performers. Inside the exposure metering spot was not dark and gave the ISO100-1/60-f/3.3 setting. Had he used other exposure metering (Center weighted or multi pattern) it would have tried to expose for the audience more and washed out the performers who were brightly lighted as well as used a slower shutter - both bad. Many concert-experienced photogrphers, if they are too far from the performers, will use digital zoom and spot metering just to expose on the lighted performers only and pull back out of digital zoom for the shot.

Both the S2 and the FZ5 have spot metering. You just have to know when and how to use it.

--mamallama

tkz4 wrote:
[snip]
As I said before, I don't think any scene taken at ISO 100, 1/60,
F3.3 that Lothar used was really a low light setting. Thats the
same speed the camera uses for flash photos, so it was that bright
onstage. That's not to take away from his shots, but they weren't
really low light shots. For comparison, my office requires 6/10th
of a sec at F3.5 and ISO 100. This is 10X slower (3.5 stops) than
the conditions Lothar was shooting under.
[snip]
 
Good info on concert pics with the S2 in that thread.

There's no manual focus on the FZ5, so focus lock would be the only alternative. But it's "high speed focus mode" seems to give it the AF advantage over the S2.

Then there's the tradeoff of having no TIFF mode on the S2, which the FZ5 does have. This certainly isn't critical, but sometimes it's nice to shoot without any type of jpeg compression.

All of these cameras have their drawbacks, but it would be helpful to see more of what the S2 can do in non-daylight.

Anyone can take reasonably good pictures with these cameras in daylight - that's why they're called "point and shoot".

But under less-than-ideal lighting conditions is where they separate the men from the boys, the real deal from the pretenders ;-)...
 
Good point, mama. That is definitely critical in a concert situation where only a small area is usually spotlighted and the rest is near-dark.

I wonder how an S2 would have fared in Lothar's hands that night. I'll bet the results would have been pretty close to the FZ5's.
 
As i posted in another thread, these were taken with a camera i bought while camping at a festival. I hadn't studied the manual, but had learned a few things, most importantly how to change to spot metering.

This was taken with the camera at eye level, full optical zoom towards dusk between heavy rain showers, just resized, no pp:



This was at night, camera held above my head, full zoom (I think). Auto everything, P mode. Resized and slightly cropped.



Not quite Lothar's quality, but I think I have a lot to learn about this camera, so may get there yet :-)

EXIF for second one is at home, but for the Cellist, it's:
File name :



File size : 133921 bytes
File date : 2005:08:07 02:41:44
Camera make : Canon
Camera model : Canon PowerShot S2 IS
Date/Time : 2005:07:30 19:31:38
Resolution : 600 x 800
Flash used : No
Focal length : 72.0mm (35mm equivalent: 454mm)
CCD width : 5.72mm
Exposure time: 0.033 s (1/30)
Aperture : f/3.5
Metering Mode: center weight
Jpeg process : Baseline
Comment : AppleMark
 
Again, nice expressive shots. FYI, Lothar's great shots were taken at F3.3, 1/60, ISO 100 so I think he had a bit more light to work with than you. If anyrthing his looked a bit brigher, so I think you did the best you could under the circumstances- short of intentionlly underexposing for a faster shutterspeed and then lightening and noise reducing in PP. Good job and thanks for sharing,
TK
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http://tk-gallery.smugmug.com/
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