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Which System is Best?

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T3 said:
AK_2 said:
As whole system's.

Canon has so much varience across it's range - it's not what you
could call an interchangeable system. Whilst a EF lens fits on an
EOS body, you get issues with certain combinations.
Click to expand...
Absolutely false. Any EF lens will work with 100% functionality
with any Canon EOS body. I have a ten year old all-plastic Rebel X
film SLR that will work with any EF lens from any year with all
autofocus, metering, and Image Stabilization functions fully
functional. It's one of the hallmarks of the EOS/EF system and is
much more than you can say for other lens systems.
Click to expand...
Actually it's absolutely 100% true, and I have done the homework to prove it. http://www.canon-dslr.com

If you can find a 50mm 1.4 and 20d lens and body that works with the promised 1/3 dof, or even 1 x dof - lets have it to test, and I'll prmise to dissapoint you. Nothing to do with calibration. It's a fundamental issue between the body and lens. They may fix it at some time, with a lens update, body update etc. But as recent as 2 months ago I've had reports of these same issues by pros that know what they are doing with the big apertures on the 20d.

What have you done ??? Do you have pro af system (one you know works to pro accuracy) that you have compared to ??? Have other photographers tested your claims ??? Do you work for Canon UK ???
T3 said:
Back-focus issues exist practically across all of today's autofocus
systems. Some are reported more than others, but that's likely
tied to the popularity of that particular system But it has
nothing to do with the compatibility of the system. I have the
20D, and I had the 10D. I never had any focus issues with any of
those bodies or any of my lenses. But the issue does occur from
time to time, from various bodies from various brands.
Click to expand...
Back or front focus can be adjusted - although canon uk haven't managed to on my systems, they actually made it worse by using the wrong test target and method - http://www.canon-dslr.com

However, what I am talking about is varience, the different distance that the af system will focus at for the same subject at the same distance, when taking multiple shots in a row. Calibration will only help the average of the different focus positions, it will not prevent the two extremes, which with a 20d and 50mm1.4 or 85mm 1.2, the two extremes are both outside of the dof, and can be alternatively front or back focussed outside the dof. Clearly not what I would term interchangealbe - as for me the af has to work to a reasonable standard within that.

Put the same lenses on a d60, or 1d series (1d, 1ds, mk2's) and they were fine.

Even the official canon test is flawed, in that it only starts the af, from the same fixed position each time. Which ignores the fact the lens may start from a short or long ditance from the target. But by doing this, they dramatically improve the tolerance, which is obviously cheating the test results.

Regards,
Kev
 
futureassassin said:
futureassassin said:
Tha lack of Image Stabilization lenses is one major hole
Click to expand...
EH false. I dont need it at all.
Click to expand...
Yes, but if > you

I think that (in body) stabilisation in the 4/3 system would be a welcome feature if they add it.

I do not need it, too but I wouldn't bother if there would be the option to have it, just in case.

The 4/3 system is still small and smaller than the systems from Canon, Nikon and Minolta who had 20 years to build their AF lens selection. A small system is not bad, just because it is small you just have fewer options to chose from.

kind regards
 
Nikon has the most compatibility issues with lenses and bodies

Canon is rater simple. All EF lenses fit all EF bodies including EF-S

EF-S lenses (i think there are only 2 of them) fit EF-S bodies only.

Oly only has what 6 lenses right now and 2 bodies so they better not have any of them not working with another.

Of course if you limit the nikon or canon system to a laughable 2 bodies and 6 lenses you would end up with the same compatibility.

Now lets see how good that TS lens works on the Oly ... ouch

reason canon and nikon are leading in the system is because they have a very complete system with large third party support which oly currently lacks. It will take a long time until Oly has such a complete system and until third parties fully support the Oly system as well.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
If you look at the popular lenses, the ones we see most comments about on the forums, then Oly (with new lens announcements) and nikon pretty much are a match for Canon's - meaning the range between them is similar. Accepting Oly has some holes in the range, but really, we're talking one or two key lenses, which Oly are now annouced a range which exceeds the common canon choices.

Not saying canon doesn't have more lenses overall, clearly they do.

But my main point was that Oly, has a far more consistent performance regarding af across it's lens range, that beats canon's hands down.

Nikon may have issues, but with the popular modern day common matches to the canon lenses that we hear most about and see most often, they are not at any disadvantage.

Regards,
Kev
 
You're one of those people who slags a whole company and lens portfolio, because you've had a "problem" with your kit, which most likely, was caused by user error in the first place.

The Canon EF system is interchangeable across the whole lineup. Funnily enough the older Nikkor lenses work better on the Canon cameras than on the newer Nikons where they can't even meter. As for IS, well lets just say that if there were no IS, all the photographers you see at major events with their big white lenses would be very unhappy.

LOL
 
DocDAT said:
You're one of those people who slags a whole company and lens
portfolio, because you've had a "problem" with your kit, which most
likely, was caused by user error in the first place.

The Canon EF system is interchangeable across the whole lineup.
Funnily enough the older Nikkor lenses work better on the Canon
cameras than on the newer Nikons where they can't even meter. As
for IS, well lets just say that if there were no IS, all the
photographers you see at major events with their big white lenses
would be very unhappy.

LOL
Click to expand...
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong . . .

You know nothing, yet wade in, thinking you know all !!!

I have tested (from memroy) at least 8 x 10d's, 5 x 20d's, 5 x 1dmk2's - all thourghly on a controlled test that is every bit the match for the official canon inc service manual test. Albeit, I add an additional two changes which I openly discribe. The whole test is available at http://www.canon-dslr.com . I'm showing you everything you need to do your own homework. SO you too can test a wide range of the same model, and a wide range of different models, to draw your own conclusions.

Now, whilst I have problems with the 10d's (worse since canon uk tried to calibrate them using their own home brew test chart stuck on the back of a chair) - I have had no problems once I found 2 good 1dmk2's (early production batches had some issues widely reported across the forums).

With the 20d, I've had mixed results. Very good with f2.8 lenses of modern design (not so good for example with early 28-70 and 70-200 non IS). I have for example test 4 x 70-200 f2.8 IS L lenses.

However, with 50mm f1.4 and 85mm f1.2 the 20d was unnaceptable, tested as per http://www.canon-dslr.com . And other top uk photographers have confirmed my findings from both perspectives - meaning those with modern f2.8 L's loved it, those with older ones or the fastest primes did not.

Tell me, how do I use the 1dmk2's differently to the 10d's ???

Tell me, how do the other pro's use the 1d series they have (for example 1ds and 1dsmk2) to thier 20d's ???

I've shot with 10d's and 1dmk2's extensively, and (just taking static subjects) the hit rate with the 1dmk2 is vastly superiror - more like 80% keepers on the mk2, to 20% keepers on the 10d. With the 10d I would take multiple shots of the same scene, refocussing each time, just to get a sharp one. With the 1dmk2 I do it once. The 20d with an f2.8 is very good (not as good as the mk2), but with the big aps is actually worse than the 10d.

The ef system may be interchangeable in the sense that they connect, but certain lenses and certain bodies do not function to a reasonable standard, as noted.

If you have an issue with the described test, lets hear it. The vast range of equipment I own, and have tested for others, along with the wide variety of situations I shoot has allowed me to offer for others a test that can be relied upon to give tangiable comparisons to real world shooting without the unknowns. If you don't have problems with the test, and you haven't done the homework, maybe you should realise the limits of your understanding, knowledge and experience in this regard.

Regards,
Kevin

P.S. I have a 70-200 f2.8L IS of my own, thus fully appreciate the benefits of IS . . . although I personally prefer an 85mm f1.2 L when times allow.

http://www.contemporary-lifestyle-photography.com
http://www.funky3d.com/2004_3d_Masters_3_a.htm
http://www.kevinboulden.com/tfp_model_b.htm
http://www.rc-heli.com/3d/3d_page1.htm
 
I own 2 x OM2's, with matching 200mm f4, 50mm 1.8, 50mm macro, 28mm 1.8 and other accessories I forget.

I own; 2 x 10d's. 2 x 1dmk2's, 70-200 f2.8 L IS, 70-200 f4 L, 24-70 f2.8 L, 17-40 f4L, 20-35mm usm, 50mm 1.8, 50mm 1.4, 100mm f2.8 usm macro and others i forget . . oh and a canon film body, 2 x ste2, 3 x 550ex etc.

I don't own an e1, merely tested a system for a morning.

Now I have a wide range of canon kit, for lifestyle family shoots, yachts, aerobatic helis, motorsport, weddings, hotel shoots.

It's only the heli's and moving motorsport that I think I would loose out on the oly to. For these I think the mk2 has a tangiable edge.

The Oly lens range pretty much covers what I use most. The more extensive canon range doesn't make a big difference to me - and I think my subjects are a fairly typical range. I've never commented on unit sales or special niche requirements - merely saying oly has most usual photogrpahic needs covered regarding the now announced lens range.

So for me, I can look at other advatages . . e.g weight and price. The E1 has pro level focussing (accuracy not talking about tracking) which matches the 1dmk2 (and exceeds the numerous 20d's I tested). The E1 has weather seals. The E1 costs substatially less than the 1dmk2, and will do most of what I do. I've no doubt the next E1 will probably do vast majority of what I do, for much less money and weight. Remembering for example more portraits and weddings are shot (fromteh people I know) with d60's, 10d's and 20d's than the superiro mk2's. I would take a professional e1 over those consumer dslr's any day - it's no contest.

Regards,
Kev
PalmsWestPhoto said:
Kev

If you think that

'oly is beating canon hands down'

you are kidding yourself big time

but thats ok. Some people can live with a limited system like the
oly system and then often have the need to 'verify' their own
purchase like that ...

Funny

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
Click to expand...
 
I chose a Nikon D70.

It was either that or the Pentax DS and at the time I had some difficulty choosing. On paper many would say the D70 is the better camera but the DS is smaller and lighter and has a much better viewfinder. It has mirror lockup too, not that I've really needed it yet. It has better compatibility with older lenses (they meter properly for one thing). It has something about it which is just 'right'.

But then Nikon started offering £100 cashback on the D70 and I was swayed.

Don't get me wrong, I love the D70. It's a fantastic camera with 9200 frames shot in the five months I've had it. I've produced some great 15×10" prints from it.

But I can't stop the nagging feeling I'd have been happier with the Pentax. I still want one. I'm going to buy one, IN ADDITION to the D70. It's that good. And as others have mentioned, right now it's far cheaper.

Fwiw I didn't consider Canon for very long. I just don't get along with their bodies - the ergonomics are just 'wrong' while the Nikon and Pentax bodies work how I want a camera to work. The 350D body is just too small and the texture of it feels horrible and slippery. The grip is tiny. Yuck. The 20D is much more comfortable but again I don't like the control layout and operation (or the price for that matter).

As for Canon being more popular at the Athens Olympics, don't forget this was before the D2x arrived - at the time Nikon didn't have anything the pros needed whereas Canon had the 1D Mk II.

--
-Andy
http://www.caerphoto.com
 
JPLane said:
Which is your favorite and why?
Click to expand...
A wholly different question from "which is best" and one that implies that you understand that there is no "best"; only "best" for a specific photographer or use.

I can't even say I have a favorite !

I shoot Minolta. But that's largely because I owned a number of good Maxxum lenses. And of all the entry & midrange bodies, I like the 7D the best. Well, I like the E-1 a lot, but have no interest in the 4/3 system. And I like AS and would miss it if I didn't have it, but that's about as far as that goes.

All systems have some nice lenses. Personally, if I could put together any lineup, Canon offers the lenses that would suit me best (and NONE of them are IS lenses !!!) That's really a matter of zoom ranges & speeds (and USM); not quality - my Maxxums don't give up anything there.

The Pentax *istDS looks like it would be my favorite entry level body; I also like the D70 somewhat, and expect the 5D to be pretty nice. The 350D looks like it would be my least favorite, despite being the image quality king of the entry levels. (The 20D would be my second favorite choice of a body, after the 7D).

Pentax looks to have the quirkiest lens lineup; Oly's is smaller but more sensible.

So, I guess I'd like the 7D and VC grip with the 20Ds 8MP sensor and the E-1s weather sealing and dust system; a bunch of Canon lenses (the 24-70/2.8 with AS would be nice); an AS-enabled *istDS for an entry-level body.
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
I am using a Minolta 7D body and I have been trying to buy the best glass I can possibly afford.

I chose Minolta because of the built-in anti-shake - a huge financial savings over the long haul.

I also chose Minolta because I found the ergonomics far superior for my needs than any other camera. What good is a camera if you don't like using it? Thats why all those initial posters urged you to try everything and choose what fits you and your needs best. For each person that differs, so the most popular or the camera with the most megapixels or features may not be important to you. Returning to Minolta, I strongly preferred the layout of the body, and I really don't want to bother with menus very much. The Minolta body provides me with great photographic flexibility and I find it fits my hand extremely well.
 
AK_2 said:
I own 2 x OM2's, with matching 200mm f4, 50mm 1.8, 50mm macro, 28mm
1.8 and other accessories I forget.
Click to expand...
These are the 4/3rd lenses available right now:

7-14 f/4, 14-45 f/3.5-5.6, 40-150 f/3.4-4.5, 11-22 f/2.8-3.5,
14-54 f/2.8-3.5, 50-200 f/2.8-3.5, 50 f/2 Macro, 300 f/2.8,
1.4x teleconverter, 150 f/2, 8 f/2.5 fisheye.

This information is obtained from:

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product_blue.asp?l=1&p=&bc=&product=1140&fl=41 ,

http://www.olympusamerica.com/e1/zuiko_roadmap_eng.pdf

So the lenses you mention above are clearly NOT for 4/3rd system, are they? But you are right, the 2x FOV means the lens can cover a pretty broad range. However, have you considered the prices of the Oly 4/3rd lenses? :)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=8457

Canon 135 f/2L: US$900. Oly 150 f/2: US$2200. Ouch!!!
AK_2 said:
So for me, I can look at other advatages . . e.g weight and price.
Click to expand...
That's not true... except for the price of the E300. Oly 4/3rd lenses are very expensive.
AK_2 said:
The E1 has pro level focussing (accuracy not talking about
tracking) which matches the 1dmk2 (and exceeds the numerous 20d's
Click to expand...
This admittedly is an advantage in the Oly system over Canon/Nikon/Minolta/Pentax. Same camera and lens manufacturer with good quality control.
AK_2 said:
The E1 has weather seals.
Click to expand...
Again true.
AK_2 said:
money and weight. Remembering for example more portraits and
weddings are shot (fromteh people I know) with d60's, 10d's and
20d's than the superiro mk2's. I would take a professional e1 over
those consumer dslr's any day - it's no contest.
Click to expand...
I guess for reasonable print size, the high ISO noise won't be too much of an issue. I think you forgot to mention Oly E-1 colors as a strength: punchy and accurate. :)

But for most people who want access to relatively cheap and good quality lenses, Canon is a good choice.
 
JPLane said:
Thanks for the input. Let me rephrase the question:

Why did you choose the system you are currently using?
Click to expand...
I chose a Pentax IST D because it felt right, was compact and light, and offered every facility that I could foresee myself needing. Since then I have bought some new lenses, and also some excellent second-hand lenses, and have come to appreciate the fact that the Pentax system is compatible with all lenses made for several decades back.

The Nikon D70 was too big and heavy; the Canon 300D looked like a toy. OK, the decision would probably be harder now, with the D50 and the 350D. But the Pentax DSLRs operate and handle like real cameras, which will appeal immediately to anyone familiar with film SLRs.

Recommended, on the basis of my experience (and formerly I was a Canon fan, using several AE-1 variants over the years).

tim
 
Dennis said:
JPLane said:
Which is your favorite and why?
Click to expand...
A wholly different question from "which is best" and one that
implies that you understand that there is no "best"; only "best"
for a specific photographer or use.
Click to expand...
This would be a better way of saying it.
Dennis said:
I can't even say I have a favorite !

I shoot Minolta. But that's largely because I owned a number of
good Maxxum lenses. And of all the entry & midrange bodies, I like
the 7D the best. Well, I like the E-1 a lot, but have no interest
in the 4/3 system. And I like AS and would miss it if I didn't
have it, but that's about as far as that goes.
Click to expand...
I did not look at Oly for the same reason. I set up my P&S for 3:2 when I had one. High ISO performance was another thing I wanted.
Dennis said:
All systems have some nice lenses. Personally, if I could put
together any lineup, Canon offers the lenses that would suit me
best (and NONE of them are IS lenses !!!) That's really a matter
of zoom ranges & speeds (and USM); not quality - my Maxxums don't
give up anything there.

The Pentax *istDS looks like it would be my favorite entry level
body; I also like the D70 somewhat, and expect the 5D to be pretty
nice. The 350D looks like it would be my least favorite, despite
being the image quality king of the entry levels. (The 20D would
be my second favorite choice of a body, after the 7D).

Pentax looks to have the quirkiest lens lineup;
Click to expand...
They are introducing more lenses and the road map makes sense. They do make some of the absolute best lenses too. There are a few dogs but a lot of real gems.
Dennis said:
So, I guess I'd like the 7D and VC grip with the 20Ds 8MP sensor
and the E-1s weather sealing and dust system; a bunch of Canon
lenses (the 24-70/2.8 with AS would be nice); an AS-enabled *istDS
for an entry-level body.
Click to expand...
There are rumours that the D replacement may have AS.
Dennis said:
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
Click to expand...
 
thw said:
These are the 4/3rd lenses available right now:

7-14 f/4, 14-45 f/3.5-5.6, 40-150 f/3.4-4.5, 11-22 f/2.8-3.5,
14-54 f/2.8-3.5, 50-200 f/2.8-3.5, 50 f/2 Macro, 300 f/2.8,
1.4x teleconverter, 150 f/2, 8 f/2.5 fisheye.
Click to expand...
thw said:
So the lenses you mention above are clearly NOT for 4/3rd system,
are they?
Click to expand...
The lenses I mentioned are 20 years old for the OM2 - which is not a 4/3rds system, it's 35mm film. I own the OM2 system, I don't own an e1 system.

E1 4/3rds also has 8mm f3.5 fisheye, 14-35mm f2 (28-70), 35-100mm f2 (70-200), and 90-250mm f2.8 (180-500), 7-14mm f4 (14-28) have also been announced.

The 14-35 f2 and 35-100 f2 in particular would meet most of my photographic needs.
thw said:
But you are right, the 2x FOV means the lens can cover a
pretty broad range. However, have you considered the prices of the
Oly 4/3rd lenses? :)
Click to expand...
Prices, I am aware are higher. But it's not obvious to compare.

For example, is a canon 350 with canon 24-70 f2.8 L better or worse than a 20d with sigma's equivalent lens ???

For my portraits, and wedding, with lots of wide open low light, i would actually choose the 20d with the sigma, as an accurately focussed lens means more than the L's better glass focussed to a lower standard.

Then how would one compare;
20d with 24-70 L 2.8 to
Oly E1 with 14-35mm f2 (28-70), to
1d mk2 with 24-70 L

The mk2 is probably the superior result and likely the most expensive. But then in second place is the 20d or the e1 better. And how much more or less is the e1 - I for one am curious to find out. I think on these f2 lenses Oly will want to be very competitive as they are to me bread and butter (the building blocks) of a pro system.
thw said:
thw said:
The E1 has weather seals.
Click to expand...
Again true.
Click to expand...
I would pay more for this. As as a pro wedding photographer, I consider it neglegent to use an unsealed camera, when sealed are available.
thw said:
I guess for reasonable print size, the high ISO noise won't be too
much of an issue. I think you forgot to mention Oly E-1 colors as a
strength: punchy and accurate. :)
Click to expand...
The punchy colours I think is a little extra in camera processing that is set up to work extremely well, without blowing highlights or going too far. The 1dmk2 is in my view similar. The 10d for example, needed a deliberately dark shot to preserve highlights, then extra processing to get the shadows back. Agreed E1 is an advantage in this regard. I like my spare time ;-))

For print sizes, iso (and I would think if they can) IS, the next E1 is gonna be very interesting indeed. Knowing what I know now I would never have bought a 10d in preference to a E1. I also with the new lenses announced would not buy a 20d in prefence to the current E1. I think the next E1 might be my preference over the 1dmk2.

However, my big problem with Canon, is that in the uk I can't get warranty or non-warranty repair work done. And for me this is the deal clincher, that will see me change to Nikon D2x or the next Oly E1 in the coming few years (unless something else hits the shelfs in this area).

Regards,
Kev
 
thw said:
thw said:
So for me, I can look at other advatages . . e.g weight and price.
Click to expand...
That's not true... except for the price of the E300. Oly 4/3rd
lenses are very expensive.
Click to expand...
What a comparison...

The Oly 150 has a 2X crop factor, if you want the same FOV you have to look at a 300mm if using an EOS 1D
the price advantage goes to Olympus (and the canon lens is 2.8, not 2),

Canon Telephoto EF 300mm f/2.8L IS Image Stabilizer USM Autofocus Lens Imported
Mfr# 2531A002 • B&H# CA30028LISEF
Our Price: $ 3,749.95

--
Comments are always welcome...
My gear is in my profile...
 
Tchou said:
What a comparison...
The Oly 150 has a 2X crop factor, if you want the same FOV you have
to look at a 300mm if using an EOS 1D
Click to expand...
What about APS-C cameras (more in-line with Oly too) with the 1.6x FOV. In which case, the closest lens is the Canon 200 f/2.8L with a price of ~ US$650. :) Yes, it's a f/2.8 but the high ISO capability of Canon more than makes up for this difference.
Tchou said:
Canon Telephoto EF 300mm f/2.8L IS Image Stabilizer USM Autofocus
Lens Imported
Mfr# 2531A002 • B&H# CA30028LISEF
Our Price: $ 3,749.95
Click to expand...
BUT the Oly does NOT have IS and USM (or equivalent technology), does it? :)
 
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