FZ30 - what a shame

This would seem to me to simply be disclaimer of standard digital camera laws of nature. Often consumers like to blame a product for doing what it normally does (e.g. get mad because coffee was hot when you spilled it in your lap). Not at all suprizing to see the manufacturers (yes, plural. Panasonic isn't alone) pointing out standard caveats to the buyers of their products in order to fend off a little ranting and raving about "defects" in a camera design.

Fabio Amodeo said:

I happened to read quickly the Panasonic instructions PDF (which I
hope is not in prototype form). At one point it deals with noise.
It states: if noise is too much, lower ISO. If it does not work,
shoot in better light, which I find wonderfully extravagant. At
another point it states that barrel distortion at WA is
anavoidable. Nice way to talk about the inevitable compromises a
camera like this has to deal with. I appreciate Panasonic's
frankness, but it makes me long for a Zeiss Ikon RF and some more
film.

Fabio

Click to expand...

--
I see your schwartz is as big as mine.

wazza said:

I found your post mature, well phrased, intelligent and measured.
Ignore those that are here to troll, flame and abuse.

Click to expand...

The kind words are appreciated.

--
I see your schwartz is as big as mine.

Hej said:

wazza said:

I found your post mature, well phrased, intelligent and measured.
Ignore those that are here to troll, flame and abuse.

Click to expand...

The kind words are appreciated.

Click to expand...

I am apparently one of the great unwashed that really enjoys 7-8 mp in a "small sensor" camera. I like the capability it gives me.

I take hundreds of images every month. Many are great, some are average and some are dumped. I have a 7mp "small sensor" camera now that takes excellent (IMO and others) images at 200 and even 400 ISO.

Sure there is noise but in a print it is hardly noticeable and if I really want to I PP (I rarely do).

The FZ30 will be my second camera for planned use for specific occasions. My current "high mp" camera will continue to be my everyday camera.

Regards

This is better than reality TV.Watching you create other handles to support you position is pathetic. Get a life. There's just you, yourself and him. No one in the world supports your view.

To the 8MP image I posted. So Iask again - where's the unusable noise?

xxl said:

Irrelevant mumbo-jumbo for the mindless crowd.
Colors can be adjusted, noise reducton applied, the cam can be
spraypainted purpled and dipped in donkey-pee, but the inherent
problem of forcing 8MP on a pinhead size sensor is a poor choice
from an image point of view, - preproduction or not.
The entire generation of 8MP on the substantiallly larger 2/3
sensor were all horrible examples of what too small photosites does
to S/N-ratio.
Using even smaller photosites is downright stupid.
Your mindless and naive brandloyallty, - or whatever it is, - is
kind of sweet however immature and misguider it is.

Click to expand...

Because I now can combine 4 pixel into one
And have still 4 megapix
And If the light is good I can uses 16 megapix.
combine 4 pixels is different from bicubic down sampling
because with downsampling in some cases you only use on pix
Bob.

xxl said:

Irrelevant mumbo-jumbo for the mindless crowd.
Colors can be adjusted, noise reducton applied, the cam can be
spraypainted purpled and dipped in donkey-pee, but the inherent
problem of forcing 8MP on a pinhead size sensor is a poor choice
from an image point of view, - preproduction or not.
The entire generation of 8MP on the substantiallly larger 2/3
sensor were all horrible examples of what too small photosites does
to S/N-ratio.
Using even smaller photosites is downright stupid.

Click to expand...

At low ISO, The 2/3" 8Mpix gives very good and quasi noise free
results.

If you look at the 1/1.8" 7 Mpx, the noise performance is better
at 200 and 400 ISO without really loosing sharpness, however
the pixel size is smaller.

Many factors are playing to alter signal/noise ratio:

• The dark current noise (proprotional to the size of the photodiode)

with a temperature component.

• The Noise of the video preamps (the faster they are, the noisier

they are) with also a temperature component (generally independant
of the size of the pixels)

• The photon noise (proportional to the square root of pixel surface)

The signal strenth is function ot the sensitivity and the size of the
photodiode. The photodiode is smaller than the size (surface) of the
photosite, you need to put also interconnects and the capacitor in which
electrons are stored before reading.
The fill factor (ratio of photodiode size/ photosite size) can be better
with the use of microlenses (with precaution, they can create some
problems, PF for example).

The dynamic range is function of the capacity of the storage
(capacitor) available.

In conclusion yu have many factor to play with to have a better
signal/noise ratio.

Another one will be to cool the CCD with a pelletier device ...

Regards,
--
Patrick

Its long been known that certain individuals post in order to discredit some manufacturers cameras when they threaten to upset the market .

Theoretical objections to improved technology should be listened to but it is far more important to look at the actual pictures & this camera does well in that score. They can be improved in PP but that applies to ALL digital cameras.

There are those people who value portability & convenience & that is based on experience & practical considerations not on theories.

Keith-C

All good points, but portabillity would more than likely be the same with a lower pixelcount?

Better signal to noise ratio has little to do with portabillity as far as I understand the issue.

Personally I chose a FZ15 over a FZ20 after having tried to compare the noise levels.

The lower base iso combined with larger photosites makes a noticeable difference, which several reviews have substantiated.

I never use it over iso 64 as the noise then become too annoying, but you got to love that big leica zoom.

With all the other improvement fz30 offers I wonder why panasonics did not stay at 5mp and cashed in noisewise on the new larger sensor?

That would more than likely have removed the only real remaining valid point of criticism,

Unfortunately noone seems to want to discuss seriously the issue at hand even though it's allways interesting to take a good hard look at the choices manufacturers make.
Choices that are too often not made to achieve the best quality or performance.

All good points, I only wish I had all your cams.
You must have one hell of a xxl camera bag!

However, I think the issue is precisely the quality of the compromise you mention.
Unfortunately noone seems to be willing to discuss that in a mature way.
Don't you think the fz30 would have a better deal with f.e.x 4mp?

I'm asking from a purely image quality point of view, - I fully realize that marketing and sales are an entirely different anmal.

I admire your photographic insight, but as for logic, your's is a bit flawed.
Perhaps it has something to do with gender?

As a legal scholar I always teach my students, that the burden of proof (of course) falls on those who make wild claims, which also in this case are totally unsupported over tens of thousands of years.

We all know there's not a single shred of evidense to support any religion, on the contrary all rationally based scientific knowledge and all logic tells us that virgins giving birth, resurrections, healings, miracles, life after death, and the whole enchilada is purely manmade fiction for children and primitive tribes.

As James Randy, - who still offers 1 cool million $ to anyone who in a controlled setting can demonstrate any hint of the existence of the "alternative", astrology, religion, healing clair voyance etc. , says:

The usual claim only require ordinary proof, an extraordinary claim requires an extraordinary proof.

We all know, or should know, that nothing indicates there's any truth in any of the wild claims from the foolish religious uiniverse.

To aproach religious claims as an equally valid point of view as the opposite is really just a very sad demonstration of an astronomcal level of denial as well as intellectual bankrupcy.

How any grown-ups can still allow themselves to subscribe to these infantile fairytales in 2005 is mindboggling.

Noone?

Does that mean that 8mp on this tiny sensor is by divine intervention automatically the optimum choice for this size of sensor?
Why not 12mp or 16 or 6?

Noone seems to be able to discuss the issue in a mature fashion, which is truly a shame.

Poor S/N ratios are the Achilles heal of high MP cams, so why does it scare people to talk about it?

Because I now can combine 4 pixel into one
And have still 4 megapix
And If the light is good I can uses 16 megapix.
combine 4 pixels is different from bicubic down sampling
because with downsampling in some cases you only use on pix
Bob.

Indeed, many things influece S/N, but the laws of physics still apply.

F.ex, - more clever noise reduction kills resolution just to gain the appearance of better S/N.

It does not change the fact that noisewise - without quality destroying noisereduction, - nothing much have happened.

It's still largely a question of the size of the photosite and it does appear, that the upper llimit of possible S/N is very close to have been reached.
The issue at hand is simply:

Would fz30 have been a better compromise with 4-5 mp than with 8mp, - purely from an image quality point of view?
The answer to that quetion should be a very loud YES!

"...One might also face up to the fact, that 8MP on a pinhead sensor is a really bad idea."

Then don't buy one.

"My compliment for your math, - I 'm sure it must have taken you quite some time, all your toes, fingers and a few other tiny appendixes to figure that one out."

I demure at criticizing such a master of wit, but did you mean "appendages"?

See your "dictionary" reference below.

Yes, I'm a 'kid' and like toys...like Canon S2...roughtrade don't bother answer me ;-)

Now, I think FZ30 is a better toy and wait for Fuji, Casio, KM, Sony and their future toys.

I love the movie mode on Canon S2 but am so much curious about FZ30 9 pixel readout in movie mode. I'm glad they don't adopted the mpeg 4 compression - it's soooo much inferior than MJpeg (big visible compression artefacts). Maybe a higher bitrate in MPEG4 will do a better job.

What I like at FZ30:

• very little purple fringing for this ultazoom class (compared with Canon S2), good job Leica!
• FINALLY, a high resolution FLIP&TWIST LCD
• FINALLY, a VGA 30fps movie mode and MJPEG compression
• manual zoom and focus
• very little shoter lag

I don't like at FZ30:

• very noisy at iso 80, 100. Panasonic, do you let Fuji F10 embarrass you?
• big camera body compared with other FZ's
• proprietary battery, how come Sony's ultrazoom can do with only 2 AA?
• 28 mm wide zoom would be more appealing to me, I can't wait for the Samsung's monster review...although I'll never buy a camera with a FIXED LCD, even a 3,5" one (two fixed lcd, in fact...how stupid...)
• microphone on top...sooo wrong...it takes so much what photographer say and less the subject in front. Panasonic, look at Canon S2 to know where to put the STEREO mic
• wired remote control and not wireless

All three also have same writing style: nasty, derogatory and smacking of a major personality disorder. Interestingly too, two of the email addresses are based in DK (Denmark?) and one starts out "dslr@.........." He seems to have a thing about bashing this camera and hyping DSLRs. But the obvious question is why is he bothering to post in this forum in the first place? Just stay with the DSLR forums (there are enough of them!!) I don't understand people who want to get in everyone else's business, in such a negative way, instead of minding their own. So I guess I don't understand TROLLS! LOL.
--
Galleries: http://www.koo22images.com/-/koo22images/

It looks like maybe "kusse" is another of his alter egoes, just created yesterday, also from Denmark, with an email address of "FZ30@......" This is getting to be fun! I wonder how many personalities he will end up creating before he becomes dangerous. K.
--
Galleries: http://www.koo22images.com/-/koo22images/

If I had a simple 3-4MP P&S camera and wanted something better, I would sure look after every 8MP camera brand -inluding Panasonic FZ30. If there would be no FZ30, Panasonic wouldn't fall into my possible choice -and that's all about. Every manufacturer just want a piece of (camera market) cake, which is normal. Every brand also try to be present on the market non-stop and (if possible) try to overtake market.

Canon has now 29 P&S models on the market, but how much do they differ? IMHO not much. Technically looking there are maybe 5-6 different models (all others are some deviations from basic model).

IMO, Panasonic FZ30 is the same case as e.g. Canon S2 -improvement over previous model. Nothing bad in that -usually new models are better than previous.

I agree, that putting too much pixels on small sensor has drawbacks, but... average P&S buyer think different: "..hey, my cell-phone has 2MP.. and best XYZ P&S only 5MP?.. shame on XYZ brand!.. What? Only 4x zoom?.. cr** brand!"

IMO, one should get new camera when he/she really think that he/she need something better or different. Is a jump from 10x- to 12x-zoom really so important in everyday use? I think not, but some do -so what.

I would not buy FZ30, because I don't see benefits of this camera -and again: that doesn't mean that this is a bad camera (some people would maybe appreciate the size and handling of FZ30).

Have a nice day,
Bogdan
--
My pictures are my memories
http://freeweb.siol.net/hrastni3/

Then don't buy one?

I thought the whole purpose of foras like these was debating pros and cons, new models, developments, etc??????

Seems very immature how people get worked up over this question, that deserves a less childish treatment.

Especially since noise is the Achillesheel of all these tiny sensor mega-mp cams.

Why insist on reducing the scope of these foras to mere smalltallk with your grilfriends and mindless praise of whatever product is the current flavor of the day?