707-Not wideangle enough

Any real photographers here? Do you own a wide angle lens for your (film) reflexcamera? Is it a 28 or 24 mm? Or even a 21 mm?

A fact is that wideangle photography is very popular, and one of the advantages of the new Minolta Dimâge 7 is the 28 mm (eqv) wideangle. Great for any serious photographer!

The new Sony DSC-707 has the same CCD and had to use a new lens. But Sony did not take advantage of this opportunity to use a more "wideangled" lens. The use of 38 mm does't give much wideangle effect.

I regret this, and don't know why. Maybe the producer (Canon, oops, sorry, I mean Carl Zeiss) had this lens ready to use?

If reviewers should mention this in their reviews Sony might change this in the next model (next year). Or am I alone on this, I can't understand that hardly anyone mentions this, even if they like to use real wideangle when they shoot.

Hello Mark,

This has been pointed out by several people on this forum (check Pondria's comments for instance). My guess is that Sony need to provide their clients with high quality lenses (hence the Carl Zeiss connection), and therefore didn't want to put a 5 x lens starting at 24 or 28 mm on the 707, which could hardly have been as sharp as the present lens. Of course, they could have opted for let's say a 3x lens of that type, but would it have attracted most consumers?

Beside, it is absolutely true that many 'serious' photographers need a real wide angle lens for landscapes, etc, but at the same time there are also those 'serious' photographers who use their camera mostly for portrait, animal photography, etc. These people need a good tele lens... and they are lucky because their needs are closer to the majority of consumers (and of course the F707 is mainly targeted at a wide market of good amateurs).

I would also like to have a very sharp wide angle zoom lens, as I have on my 'traditional' camera, but I believe that we'll have to wait until there is enough of a market for such a camera. In the meantime, a good converter designed FOR the 707 would of course be most welcome.

Mark Moed said:

Any real photographers here? Do you own a wide angle lens for your
(film) reflexcamera? Is it a 28 or 24 mm? Or even a 21 mm?

A fact is that wideangle photography is very popular, and one of
the advantages of the new Minolta Dimâge 7 is the 28 mm (eqv)
wideangle. Great for any serious photographer!

The new Sony DSC-707 has the same CCD and had to use a new lens.
But Sony did not take advantage of this opportunity to use a more
"wideangled" lens. The use of 38 mm does't give much wideangle
effect.

I regret this, and don't know why. Maybe the producer (Canon, oops,
sorry, I mean Carl Zeiss) had this lens ready to use?

If reviewers should mention this in their reviews Sony might change
this in the next model (next year). Or am I alone on this, I can't
understand that hardly anyone mentions this, even if they like to
use real wideangle when they shoot.

Click to expand...

I believe two 38mm photos stiched will give you a wider and better quality photo than a single 21mm photo and you will still have 190mm at the other end. You lose a lot of telephoto capability when you start wide, and the tele-adapters do not give near the quality of the built-in optics. However, with both types of cameras on the market, users can choose according to their needs.

Rodger

That is the nice thing about the Dimâge 7: the quality of the lens is really very good (I know, I tested it for the Dutch magazine Focus), AND the zoom range is very good. From 28 to 200 mm, want do you want more?
I know what I want: a lens like that in the DSC-707!

Mark

Rodger Carter said:

I believe two 38mm photos stiched will give you a wider and better
quality photo than a single 21mm photo and you will still have
190mm at the other end. You lose a lot of telephoto capability
when you start wide, and the tele-adapters do not give near the
quality of the built-in optics. However, with both types of
cameras on the market, users can choose according to their needs.

Rodger

Click to expand...

Wow! Great idea! Why not go with a fixed 190mm lens (which is superior to all conceiveable zoom lenses) and just stich, stich, stich until you get any zoom range you want down to fisheye!

I'd still rather have the 28-200mm lens range of the Dimage (strangely enough, one does not lose any telephoto capabilty compared to the F707 but even gains 10mm), and the wide-angle adapters don't give you near the quality of the builit-in optics.

LX+R

Rodger Carter said:

I believe two 38mm photos stiched will give you a wider and better
quality photo than a single 21mm photo and you will still have
190mm at the other end. You lose a lot of telephoto capability
when you start wide, and the tele-adapters do not give near the
quality of the built-in optics. However, with both types of
cameras on the market, users can choose according to their needs.

Rodger

Click to expand...

A lot of us (including me) have been complaining here about the wide end of the 707 not being wide enough. Well, the 707 is nicer in some respects, but the D7 is an option. (I realize I'm playing Devil's advocate, posting this on the Sony forum).

For a heavy user of wide angle, the D7 might be the best choice. By looking at the sample images, the 707 has slightly better resolution and slightly less noise, but by slapping a WA conversion lens on the 707, you will probably end up with worse image quality than the D7 at the wide end.

You'll have to pay a few hundred dollars more, and you'll have to carry more batteries with you, but life has its compromises. On the plus side, you can use CF cards, giving you up to 1Mb of in-camera storage. The Sony really falls flat here.

By Phil's own admission, the Minolta lens is very good, even though he has some other complaints about the rest of the camera.

The Minolta Lens on the Sony body would have been nice, but we didn't get it .

Mark Moed said:

A fact is that wideangle photography is very popular, and one of
the advantages of the new Minolta Dimâge 7 is the 28 mm (eqv)
wideangle. Great for any serious photographer!

Click to expand...

David said:

On
the plus side, you can use CF cards, giving you up to 1Mb of
in-camera storage.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant 1Gb! I should proofread better .

If I have to read this "real" or "serious" photographer crap again, I'm going to break a few Forum rules on personal attacks, profanity, etc :> ) (Just kidding!)

There are other "Real" or "serious" photographers that think that WA is for wusses and that what the 707 REALLY needs is an intelligent HOT shoe with PC output and complete compatibility with their existing Studio Strobe outfits.

And then there are the VERY "serious" widlife Photographers that bemoan the fact that the the 707 has only 190mm. They don't care about the wussy WA stuff and they wouldn't be caught dead in a studio. They don't even want to be know as as a real photogrpher........they prefer REAL MEN as a title..

And let's not forget the SERIOUS sports photographers who thinks that .6 seconds is an eternity and can't understand why Sony didn't build a FAST camera for REAL and SERIOUS photographers instead of the 707.

And then there are the truly Serious Photographers. The ones that grow a beard and traipse around out west looking like Ansel Adams. They Are CRUSHED that the 707 doesn't do B&W. Where the Subject is the Subject. For THAT is how you distunguish a serioius photographer isn't it?

Poor ol' 707.
I guess it's not suited for anybody.

Somehgow I think it may sell a few copies anyway to the non-serious folks who are willing to try and work around it's serious flaws.

Homer

PS Welcome Visitors! BTW, you don't need our permission to buy a Minolta!
The D7 is a nice camera. If it is what you need, buy it.

I am unclear why you are telling us here in the Sony talk Forum what your problems are (We didn't build it!) rather than say, the OPEN forum, but Welcome anyway!

:> )

Homer

Mark Moed said:

Any real photographers here? Do you own a wide angle lens for your
(film) reflexcamera? Is it a 28 or 24 mm? Or even a 21 mm?

A fact is that wideangle photography is very popular, and one of
the advantages of the new Minolta Dimâge 7 is the 28 mm (eqv)
wideangle. Great for any serious photographer!

The new Sony DSC-707 has the same CCD and had to use a new lens.
But Sony did not take advantage of this opportunity to use a more
"wideangled" lens. The use of 38 mm does't give much wideangle
effect.

I regret this, and don't know why. Maybe the producer (Canon, oops,
sorry, I mean Carl Zeiss) had this lens ready to use?

If reviewers should mention this in their reviews Sony might change
this in the next model (next year). Or am I alone on this, I can't
understand that hardly anyone mentions this, even if they like to
use real wideangle when they shoot.

Click to expand...

Thank you Homer. I am glad you posted before I did. I don't think I have the self control that you've got.

What is it with these camera snobs? It's one thing to love your camera and share your enthusiasm with others, but to venture into a group of like-minded people (different from your own) and come in blasting and insulting just doesn't make any sense to me. As the editors of the fine online publication The Onion would call these people, they must be batsh*t loonballs.

I think if the point about the wide angle setting on the new F707 is probably a legitimate complaint from those that would otherwise love to purchase this camera. However, unless it prevents Sony from selling a lot of new F707s, I don't think it's something that they'll change.

Finally, what is wrong with you camera snobs? Is it really that important to you to come in, complain about a new camera that has this place abuzzing, then turn around and shove your favorite camera in our face? How many times has a STF member gone over to the Minolta, Olympus, Canon or Nikon forum and done this? How many of you STF members out there want to start blasting the D7 for its battery issues?

Either share your worthy insights and be productive or please go back to your own playground, boys and girls.

Mike M

Homer said:

There are other "Real" or "serious" photographers that think that
WA is for wusses and that what the 707 REALLY needs is an
intelligent HOT shoe with PC output and complete compatibility with
their existing Studio Strobe outfits.

And then there are the VERY "serious" widlife Photographers that
bemoan the fact that the the 707 has only 190mm. They don't care
about the wussy WA stuff and they wouldn't be caught dead in a
studio. They don't even want to be know as as a real
photogrpher........they prefer REAL MEN as a title..

And let's not forget the SERIOUS sports photographers who thinks
that .6 seconds is an eternity and can't understand why Sony didn't
build a FAST camera for REAL and SERIOUS photographers instead of
the 707.

And then there are the truly Serious Photographers. The ones that
grow a beard and traipse around out west looking like Ansel Adams.
They Are CRUSHED that the 707 doesn't do B&W. Where the Subject is
the Subject. For THAT is how you distunguish a serioius
photographer isn't it?

Poor ol' 707.
I guess it's not suited for anybody.
Somehgow I think it may sell a few copies anyway to the non-serious
folks who are willing to try and work around it's serious flaws.

Homer

PS Welcome Visitors! BTW, you don't need our permission to buy a
Minolta!
The D7 is a nice camera. If it is what you need, buy it.
I am unclear why you are telling us here in the Sony talk Forum
what your problems are (We didn't build it!) rather than say, the
OPEN forum, but Welcome anyway!

:> )

Homer

Mark Moed said:

Any real photographers here? Do you own a wide angle lens for your
(film) reflexcamera? Is it a 28 or 24 mm? Or even a 21 mm?

A fact is that wideangle photography is very popular, and one of
the advantages of the new Minolta Dimâge 7 is the 28 mm (eqv)
wideangle. Great for any serious photographer!

The new Sony DSC-707 has the same CCD and had to use a new lens.
But Sony did not take advantage of this opportunity to use a more
"wideangled" lens. The use of 38 mm does't give much wideangle
effect.

I regret this, and don't know why. Maybe the producer (Canon, oops,
sorry, I mean Carl Zeiss) had this lens ready to use?

If reviewers should mention this in their reviews Sony might change
this in the next model (next year). Or am I alone on this, I can't
understand that hardly anyone mentions this, even if they like to
use real wideangle when they shoot.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mike M said:

How many times has a STF member gone over to
the Minolta, Olympus, Canon or Nikon forum and done this? How many
of you STF members out there want to start blasting the D7 for its
battery issues?

Either share your worthy insights and be productive or please go
back to your own playground, boys and girls.

Click to expand...

Let's not get our feathers too ruffled. I'm a newcomer here on STF, and one of the reasons I joined is because I'm in the process of deciding which camera to buy. I don't think we should preclude ALL discussion or comparison of other model cameras as long as it's done in a relatively constructive manner.

Sometimes we get a little carried away with our brand loyalties (and I'm occasionally as guilty as anyone else), but these are, after all, cameras, and as photographers we probably all have much more in common than in difference.

You're right, David. I need a healthy reminder from Ulysses, but you'll do just fine.

Thanks for the sobering comments.

Kind regards.

David said:

Mike M said:

How many times has a STF member gone over to
the Minolta, Olympus, Canon or Nikon forum and done this? How many
of you STF members out there want to start blasting the D7 for its
battery issues?

Either share your worthy insights and be productive or please go
back to your own playground, boys and girls.

Click to expand...

Let's not get our feathers too ruffled. I'm a newcomer here on
STF, and one of the reasons I joined is because I'm in the process
of deciding which camera to buy. I don't think we should preclude
ALL discussion or comparison of other model cameras as long as it's
done in a relatively constructive manner.

Sometimes we get a little carried away with our brand loyalties
(and I'm occasionally as guilty as anyone else), but these are,
after all, cameras, and as photographers we probably all have much
more in common than in difference.

Click to expand...

Hello all,

I like to explain my point and situation.

I do not own a D7. I review cameras for a magazine in Holland, so I can try a lot of camera's. And I am not a fan of the D7 either (slow AF, battery problem, etc) but I only used the lens as an example what is possible on a camera.

Sorry that my "serious photographers" sermon aroused you, it was indeed a little arrogant. But I just meant to say that I felt sorry that Sony didn't use a more wideangle lens. In analoge photography the 28-105 and 28-200 are extremely popular, and with reason. And don't forget that digital cameras are used a lot by companies. They really need wideangle, I met people who photograph interiors (houses, boats) and real estate people who have to shoot a house in a narrow street. They need a camera with wideangle.

And I know that companies like Sony really listens to critique, the feedback is extremely important, the use it to improve the next camera!
So don't reject criticism.

thanks and have a good day

Mark Moed

Mike M said:

What is it with these camera snobs? It's one thing to love your
camera and share your enthusiasm with others, but to venture into a
group of like-minded people (different from your own) and come in
blasting and insulting just doesn't make any sense to me. As the
editors of the fine online publication The Onion would call these
people, they must be batsh*t loonballs.

I think if the point about the wide angle setting on the new F707
is probably a legitimate complaint from those that would otherwise
love to purchase this camera. However, unless it prevents Sony
from selling a lot of new F707s, I don't think it's something that
they'll change.

Finally, what is wrong with you camera snobs? Is it really that
important to you to come in, complain about a new camera that has
this place abuzzing, then turn around and shove your favorite
camera in our face? How many times has a STF member gone over to
the Minolta, Olympus, Canon or Nikon forum and done this? How many
of you STF members out there want to start blasting the D7 for its
battery issues?

Either share your worthy insights and be productive or please go
back to your own playground, boys and girls.

Mike M

Homer said:

There are other "Real" or "serious" photographers that think that
WA is for wusses and that what the 707 REALLY needs is an
intelligent HOT shoe with PC output and complete compatibility with
their existing Studio Strobe outfits.

And then there are the VERY "serious" widlife Photographers that
bemoan the fact that the the 707 has only 190mm. They don't care
about the wussy WA stuff and they wouldn't be caught dead in a
studio. They don't even want to be know as as a real
photogrpher........they prefer REAL MEN as a title..

And let's not forget the SERIOUS sports photographers who thinks
that .6 seconds is an eternity and can't understand why Sony didn't
build a FAST camera for REAL and SERIOUS photographers instead of
the 707.

And then there are the truly Serious Photographers. The ones that
grow a beard and traipse around out west looking like Ansel Adams.
They Are CRUSHED that the 707 doesn't do B&W. Where the Subject is
the Subject. For THAT is how you distunguish a serioius
photographer isn't it?

Poor ol' 707.
I guess it's not suited for anybody.
Somehgow I think it may sell a few copies anyway to the non-serious
folks who are willing to try and work around it's serious flaws.

Homer

PS Welcome Visitors! BTW, you don't need our permission to buy a
Minolta!
The D7 is a nice camera. If it is what you need, buy it.
I am unclear why you are telling us here in the Sony talk Forum
what your problems are (We didn't build it!) rather than say, the
OPEN forum, but Welcome anyway!

:> )

Homer

Mark Moed said:

Any real photographers here? Do you own a wide angle lens for your
(film) reflexcamera? Is it a 28 or 24 mm? Or even a 21 mm?

A fact is that wideangle photography is very popular, and one of
the advantages of the new Minolta Dimâge 7 is the 28 mm (eqv)
wideangle. Great for any serious photographer!

The new Sony DSC-707 has the same CCD and had to use a new lens.
But Sony did not take advantage of this opportunity to use a more
"wideangled" lens. The use of 38 mm does't give much wideangle
effect.

I regret this, and don't know why. Maybe the producer (Canon, oops,
sorry, I mean Carl Zeiss) had this lens ready to use?

If reviewers should mention this in their reviews Sony might change
this in the next model (next year). Or am I alone on this, I can't
understand that hardly anyone mentions this, even if they like to
use real wideangle when they shoot.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mark Moed said:

And
don't forget that digital cameras are used a lot by companies. They
really need wideangle, I met people who photograph interiors
(houses, boats) and real estate people who have to shoot a house in
a narrow street. They need a camera with wideangle.

Click to expand...

Interesting you mention this point. I actually know one real
estate appraiser who has purchased a D7, and the 28mm 7x
zoom was the deciding factor. He works out of his car and
only takes a few dozen shots per house, so the battery issue
isn't a problem for him. Also, for this type of use, a little bit of
extra noise isn't really a problem. I asked him about other
cameras with WA conversion lenses, and he said that they
were more inconvenient and didn't want to bother with
them (remember, he's a real estate professional, not a
photographer). I don't think the D7 is the right camera for
me, but I can see how it might become popular among
real estate professionals.

Mark Moed said:

Hello all,

But I just meant to say that I felt sorry
that Sony didn't use a more wideangle lens. In analoge photography
the 28-105 and 28-200 are extremely popular, and with reason.

Click to expand...

Yes. But. Those radical zooms have abysmal resolution. Check them out on http://www.photodo.com . (The Nikkor 28-200 is one of the worst lenses they make. The Sigma 28-200 is only slightly better. The Tamron is worse.)

Remember the main reason why (a) the D7 disappointed, and (b) the F707 is so exciting? Right, it's the resolution. Sony compromized zoom length for improved resolution. Thank you, Sony!

courage said:

And
don't forget that digital cameras are used a lot by companies. They
really need wideangle, I met people who photograph interiors
(houses, boats) and real estate people who have to shoot a house in
a narrow street. They need a camera with wideangle.

Click to expand...

I think you are exactly right that wide angle is useful and wonderful. I'd love to see a 4.9MP consumer digital camera with the lens performance of the F707 and a 20-40mm (or 17-35mm) equivalent zoom range. I'd buy it instantly. But I ain't holding my breath. (I'm looking into the Ricoh GR21 in the meantime...)

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan