F707, S85 reviews: why no mention of cripple by Memory Sticks?

Edmar Wiggers · Aug 21, 2001

Memory Sticks are the worst flaw of F707 and S85, otherwise wonderful cameras.

What I don't like about MSticks:

limited in maximum storage (currently 128MB,

vs. 1GB now and 2GB coming for Compact Flash),

expensive (more $ MB, adaptors are ridiculously expensive)
proprietary.

The larger sensors of S85 and F707 (4MP and 5MP) make the problem much worse.

I wonder why Phil hasn't mentioned it in the "Conclusion - Cons" section of either review. He REALLY should have.

MSticks are the main (if not only) reason I will not buy a Sony digicam.
--Edmar Wiggers

DarrenH · Aug 21, 2001

Hi Edmar, you're absolutely right. As I'm shopping for a medium-priced digital camera myself, this issue is one of my main concerns.

With the 707 I may be won over however....
D

Edmar Wiggers said:
Memory Sticks are the worst flaw of F707 and S85, otherwise
wonderful cameras.

What I don't like about MSticks:

limited in maximum storage (currently 128MB,

vs. 1GB now and 2GB coming for Compact Flash),

expensive (more $ MB, adaptors are ridiculously expensive)

proprietary.

The larger sensors of S85 and F707 (4MP and 5MP) make the problem
much worse.

I wonder why Phil hasn't mentioned it in the "Conclusion - Cons"
section of either review. He REALLY should have.

MSticks are the main (if not only) reason I will not buy a Sony
digicam.

--
Edmar Wiggers

Marcus · Aug 21, 2001

Edmar Wiggers said:
Memory Sticks are the worst flaw of F707 and S85, otherwise
wonderful cameras.

Ummmmm...so the beauty has a flaw?

)

Edmar Wiggers said:
What I don't like about MSticks:

limited in maximum storage (currently 128MB,

vs. 1GB now and 2GB coming for Compact Flash),

Agreed

Edmar Wiggers said:
expensive (more $ MB, adaptors are ridiculously expensive)

Adaptors? Never used one. USB is the way I go, from camera to PC.

Expensive..ahh you make a point. Well you probably know that there was already a drop in price of MS.

So what is the competitor of the F707? The Dimage7? Then take a look at the prices....and then you will see that the Sony costs less....take it that way.

Edmar Wiggers said:
proprietary.

Future will show if that gonna change...contracts and plans were made. That doesn't mean anything, so let's wait together...

Edmar Wiggers said:
The larger sensors of S85 and F707 (4MP and 5MP) make the problem
much worse.

Marcus

jacques · Aug 21, 2001

Hi Edmar,

I think better crippled by the memory stick, than by the rest of all the specs. And the memory sticks, well they realy aren't that much expensive than the flash memory cards.

And as you spend $1000 or more for a camera set, which comes complete with long lasting LiIon batery and loader, well you can spend some extra bugs for a 128MB memory stick, or even two, as well.

Looking at the figures Phil gives in it's review, in which he just compares it with the Dimage7, well these figures have to be compared with E10, D30, and even D1x, as they are ahwsome good.

jacques

ruexp67 · Aug 21, 2001

jacques said:
Hi Edmar,

Member said:
Looking at the figures Phil gives in it's review, in which he just
compares it with the Dimage7, well these figures have to be
compared with E10, D30, and even D1x, as they are ahwsome good.

You could buy the 707 and 512MB of Memory Sticks for what it costs to buy the Dimage 7 (with only the supplied CF Card.).

Edmar Wiggers · Aug 21, 2001

Marcus said:
Marcus said:

expensive (more $ MB, adaptors are ridiculously expensive)

Click to expand...

Adaptors? Never used one. USB is the way I go, from camera to PC.
Expensive..ahh you make a point. Well you probably know that there
was already a drop in price of MS.

Even with the price drop MS don't really come near the CF counterparts. Also, I would really have a use for a PCMCIA adaptor. That way I could download a 128MB MS to a laptop/digital wallet/whatever and meanwhile go on shooting with a second MS.

Marcus said:
So what is the competitor of the F707? The Dimage7? Then take a
look at the prices....and then you will see that the Sony costs
less....take it that way.

Agreed, the F707 has no direct competition today (in its price class). But MS are still a pain, and I could settle for less zoom, wider wide-angle and 1MP less. Then again, that depends on your photography style.

Marcus said:
Marcus said:

proprietary.

Click to expand...

Future will show if that gonna change...contracts and plans were
made. That doesn't mean anything, so let's wait together...

I really doubt other manufacturers will follow suit. CF is a far better established standard, and there are no technical advantages in favor on MS (I don't consider the size difference a real advantage).

Regards,

Edmar

KD · Aug 21, 2001

Or A F707 + 256MB + a good 58mm WA lens. ;-)

Can't wait to touch this angel.

--KD

ruexp67 said:
jacques said:

Hi Edmar,

Click to expand...

ruexp67 said:

Looking at the figures Phil gives in it's review, in which he just
compares it with the Dimage7, well these figures have to be
compared with E10, D30, and even D1x, as they are ahwsome good.

Click to expand...

You could buy the 707 and 512MB of Memory Sticks for what it costs
to buy the Dimage 7 (with only the supplied CF Card.).

KCTrio · Aug 21, 2001

Edmar:

Sony is the only company that could possibly, single-handedly, pull off a proprietary memory storage format and take 25% of the market. Understand that we Sony digicam owners bought our cameras because we happen to like Sony's cameras--with their quirks and all--but purchased the product with an understanding that the storage media is more expensive. Sony sells more digital cameras than any other company, so unless that market position is threatened, I don't see why it should be a negative.

You make a point, nonetheless, that the memory sticks are more expensive than the other media. But with that having been said, you're complainng to the wrong crowd. None of us would be here if we felt that the memory stick issue was a problem frustrating enough to avoid purchasing a Sony digicam. We just learn to live with it.

And I think Sony has listened to this issue somewhat...or better stated, they are moving to level to of their plan for market domination. They have already lowered the retail price of their memory sticks. But until the day comes when they risk losing massive amounts of customers because of the memory stick issue, they'll continue to stick with it.

Kind regards.

Mike M

ruexp67 said:
jacques said:

Hi Edmar,

Click to expand...

ruexp67 said:

Looking at the figures Phil gives in it's review, in which he just
compares it with the Dimage7, well these figures have to be
compared with E10, D30, and even D1x, as they are ahwsome good.

Click to expand...

You could buy the 707 and 512MB of Memory Sticks for what it costs
to buy the Dimage 7 (with only the supplied CF Card.).

Old Ed · Aug 21, 2001

Edmar -

It's a free market, and you (like the rest of us) are free
to choose whatever product you like, for whatever reasons.

Edmar Wiggers said:
Memory Sticks are the worst flaw of F707 and S85, otherwise
wonderful cameras.

What I don't like about MSticks:

limited in maximum storage (currently 128MB,

vs. 1GB now and 2GB coming for Compact Flash),

How long does it take you to fill up 128MB? It takes
me most of a day, usually. I can change a memory
stick in WELL under 5 seconds, even in complete
darkness. (The superior mechanical design of the
MS and its access doors help a lot here.) I can easily
live with an extra 5-second operation or two in a
day's shooting. Don't forget that a 707 would save
you MORE than that amount of time with it's ultra-
fast boot-ups.

Edmar Wiggers said:
expensive (more $ MB, adaptors are ridiculously expensive)

proprietary.

Don't need the adapters, so not concerned.

Edmar Wiggers said:
The larger sensors of S85 and F707 (4MP and 5MP) make the problem
much worse.

Uh... what "problem" is that?

Edmar Wiggers said:
I wonder why Phil hasn't mentioned it in the "Conclusion - Cons"
section of either review. He REALLY should have.

In comparing the 707 to the D7, Phil gave the "green stripe"
to the CF memory of the D7. Happy? That's about how much
notice this issue deserves.

Edmar Wiggers said:
MSticks are the main (if not only) reason I will not buy a Sony
digicam.

You are 100% within your rights to feel this way.

Personally, I don't like cars with four-stud wheels.
We all have our little quirks.

Edmar Wiggers said:
--
Edmar Wiggers

Edmar Wiggers · Aug 21, 2001

ruexp67 said:
You could buy the 707 and 512MB of Memory Sticks for what it costs
to buy the Dimage 7 (with only the supplied CF Card.).

I'm not saying the Dimage7 is better than F707.

My point is MSticks are a weak point of both F707 and S85. And their reviews SHOULD highlight that.

S85 already has a direct competitor. Maybe F707 will have one soon, maybe not (it currently doesn't). Regardless, my point still stands.

John S37185 · Aug 21, 2001

Would love to buy a camera with Sony/D7 feature set. But a MS camera with no CF provision is a no go. Riight now the D7 is less than a grand (US $) in Europe. My guess is that it will be less than a grand here soon. Ain't competition great.

ruexp67 said:
jacques said:

Hi Edmar,

Click to expand...

ruexp67 said:

Looking at the figures Phil gives in it's review, in which he just
compares it with the Dimage7, well these figures have to be
compared with E10, D30, and even D1x, as they are ahwsome good.

Click to expand...

You could buy the 707 and 512MB of Memory Sticks for what it costs
to buy the Dimage 7 (with only the supplied CF Card.).

Egill Masson · Aug 21, 2001

Well said jacques!

jacques said:
I think better crippled by the memory stick, than by the rest of
all the specs.

Phil Askey · Aug 21, 2001

To be frank, that's your personal opinion... While I'm not a huge fan of Memory Stick neither am I of SD/MMC or SmartMedia but I don't make a note of that in my reviews.. The facts are clear, Sony is bringing the price of MS down, are selling more and more all the time and in increasing capacities.

Edmar Wiggers said:
I'm not saying the Dimage7 is better than F707.

My point is MSticks are a weak point of both F707 and S85. And
their reviews SHOULD highlight that.

S85 already has a direct competitor. Maybe F707 will have one soon,
maybe not (it currently doesn't). Regardless, my point still
stands.

aa · Aug 21, 2001

Well it's still my opinion that the memorystick eventually will go the way of the betamax. Sony being one company can't fight what is becoming an idustry standard (read CF) on their own.

dh

KCTrio · Aug 21, 2001

My point exactly, Phil. It's simply a fact of life for Sony camera owners, clearly not a deal-breaker. While it may frustrate, it certainly (in my opinion) isn't a limiting factor when determining whether to purchase the camera.

Kind regards.

Mike M

Phil Askey said:
Edmar Wiggers said:

I'm not saying the Dimage7 is better than F707.

My point is MSticks are a weak point of both F707 and S85. And
their reviews SHOULD highlight that.

S85 already has a direct competitor. Maybe F707 will have one soon,
maybe not (it currently doesn't). Regardless, my point still
stands.

Click to expand...

Edmar Wiggers · Aug 21, 2001

First of all, thanks for the reply.

Agreed, MSticks are not really worse than SD/MMC and SmartMedia, as these also seem to top out at 128MB. My complaint about the reviews is mainly about this limit.

I do mantain that 128MB is not enough for a 4MP+ camera. Maybe for P&S it is. But not for "prosumer" models (that includes the C-4040Z), particularly ones without a RAW mode. There are far less important issues listed in the "Conclusion - Cons" of the reviews.

Maybe the capacities will increase, THEN this could be a non-issue. But not right now. You could say that Compact Flash is alone in the 1GB level, but then that would be a "Conclusion - Pros" item for the 4MP+ cameras that use it.

Finally, I should say that despite all that your reviews and your site are fabulous. REALLY helped me a lot. Thanks, keep up the good work.

Phil Askey said:
To be frank, that's your personal opinion... While I'm not a huge
fan of Memory Stick neither am I of SD/MMC or SmartMedia but I
don't make a note of that in my reviews.. The facts are clear,
Sony is bringing the price of MS down, are selling more and more
all the time and in increasing capacities.

KCTrio · Aug 21, 2001

Edmar:

Again, I think this is an issue left best for those that wish to purchase a camera and make their own decisions about memory. The simple fact is that memory sticks alone account for 25% of the total market. With that in mind, if this is an issue that is important to you (and I'm sure, many others), then you should make it a part of YOUR evaluation process. However, for Phil to advocate one memory standard over another (which would be the case if he implemented your suggestion), would introduce a bias into his reviews that simply don't belong there. The better option would be to simply make the information available to those that wish to know, and he does that by listing the memory standard for every camera in the specifications section of the review.

Edmar Wiggers said:
Agreed, MSticks are not really worse than SD/MMC and SmartMedia, as
these also seem to top out at 128MB. My complaint about the reviews
is mainly about this limit.

I do mantain that 128MB is not enough for a 4MP+ camera. Maybe for
P&S it is. But not for "prosumer" models (that includes the
C-4040Z), particularly ones without a RAW mode. There are far less
important issues listed in the "Conclusion - Cons" of the reviews.

Maybe the capacities will increase, THEN this could be a non-issue.
But not right now. You could say that Compact Flash is alone in the
1GB level, but then that would be a "Conclusion - Pros" item for
the 4MP+ cameras that use it.

Finally, I should say that despite all that your reviews and your
site are fabulous. REALLY helped me a lot. Thanks, keep up the good
work.

Phil Askey said:

To be frank, that's your personal opinion... While I'm not a huge
fan of Memory Stick neither am I of SD/MMC or SmartMedia but I
don't make a note of that in my reviews.. The facts are clear,
Sony is bringing the price of MS down, are selling more and more
all the time and in increasing capacities.

Click to expand...

Edmar Wiggers · Aug 21, 2001

KCTrio said:
[...] However, for Phil to
advocate one memory standard over another (which would be the case
if he implemented your suggestion), would introduce a bias into his
reviews that simply don't belong there. [...]

False, there's precedent for that. Check out Canon G1 review. The 28mm wide-angle of Dimage7 is in the specs (and is far easier to evaluate), but check out Dimage7 review.

Ulysses · Aug 21, 2001

darren said:
Hi Edmar, you're absolutely right. As I'm shopping for a
medium-priced digital camera myself, this issue is one of my main
concerns.

With the 707 I may be won over however....

Yes, you cannot resist the power...

)

Even haters of the Memory Stick can in time become adopters!

KCTrio · Aug 21, 2001

Are you saying that Phil does advocate one form of memory versus another in either of those reviews? If so, where can I find it?

Edmar Wiggers said:
Edmar Wiggers said:

[...] However, for Phil to
advocate one memory standard over another (which would be the case
if he implemented your suggestion), would introduce a bias into his
reviews that simply don't belong there. [...]

Click to expand...

False, there's precedent for that. Check out Canon G1 review. The
28mm wide-angle of Dimage7 is in the specs (and is far easier to
evaluate), but check out Dimage7 review.

F707, S85 reviews: why no mention of cripple by Memory Sticks?

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