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Why is the Canon Digital Rebel XT (350d) so popular?
- Thread starter Theodore Mason
- Start date
caterpillar
Veteran Member
I sit corrected!I didn't! I was simply supplying a counterpoint to yourThat's probably true. and I will accept that. But please do not
lump me with that attitude!
observation that people were maybe being a bit 'defensive' in this
thread
I won't mention names also.snip
He did, but by 'popular demand' the worst offenders appear to haveReally, the d30/d60/20d forum is even worse, or WAS. They just got
rid of the nastier ones way back so it's quieter now. Maybe Phil
should do another round of cleaning for the 350d/300d forum
been 'brought back' (mentioning no names ;-) )...
But at least the other one I see posting again is subdued now. Maybe learned his/HER lesson?I agree. For the untrained. It can really be confusing!
Naaah. You're a nice guy (or gal?)! You know how messages are. You didn't do a bash. And yes, it can be therapeutic!Apologies for 'venting' and 'bashing'... it can be 'theraputic'
sometimes! I'll shut-up now!
Same here.
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- Caterpillar
caterpillar
Veteran Member
Then you must know that even in forecasting, you do look at past performance as measures, even starting points. Of course, you have to know when those measures or indicators no longer hold true. For example, when the CF memory appeared and other non-HD type of storage, you now don't have a "past" history to look at. Seagate was in a dileemma then, and like any good company that had to hedge, they even helped develop the market and the products.
When the PC first came out, it was not clear if it will be a success or not. IBM saw potential but nobody thought it would be a hit. No past history. Same with dslrs, when only Kodak in cooperation with Nikon and Canon were really doing R&D and coming out with working products for it (at 30k each).
Sensors are a critical part of the camera. If you are talking about P&S, then outsourcing it or getting it from somebody else or even having somebody build it for you, may not be critical, except the cost and the speed to market the OEM/ODM can build them for you and then stamp your logo or name on it. In MBA/TM parlance, this is a mature market, and mature product, and mature technology already (that fast!). The basis of competition is no longer primarily technology but mareketing and economies of scale (witness Oly's problem with 3rd party manuf).
Sensors are the film of the dslr. In the past, everbody is equal because of film. The basis of differentiation is in the lens or some feature like fast AF system, IS/VR, etc. Without a viable source of sensor, the playing field is not even anymore.
But for dslrs, sensors is going to be one sore point that any player must make good at. To my knowledge, there are only 5 really good players on this - Canon, Kodak, Sony, Nikon, (their lbcast may be a failure, but it is a "good" failure for a first timer. They will catch up and do good. They have the competencies and drive to make it), and the unknown-to-many - Panasonic. The rest, inlcuding Pentax, are dependent on these so far. Of course, there are other sensor makers but they are not really for dslr market.
If Pentax is good at glass, good at body design, and maybe even support chip design (a la digic/digic-2), without a sensor of their own or a viable partner their future can be shaky. If Sony lets them latch on, and hopefully with the latest technologies, not the d100 sensor or close to it, then I'd grant you, yes, you are right, Petax immediate future is all right.
Witness Sigma. They are a tie up with Foveon. IF you are tied up with that, and their cycle time is "slow" compared to a Sony, Panny, or Canon, then when everybody else is at 12mp, you will still be at 5 or 6mp. You can argue about mpixel size here in foveon or bayer terms, but the lower volume, and lock in that you have (sigma lenses only, almost the ssame as pentax mount lenses only) may be a hindrance.
But without a developed sensor of their own, these alliances are on a per contract only, unless they signed a longer one (like maybe Oly with Kodak).
So, in a many ways, the future is shaky with Pentax when it comes to sensors, unless they are developing one of their own or can secure long term contracts with 3rd parties. This is where your own sensor capability is a must. Without out it, you can only go incremental innovations.
Next year, a silent player who has tested the waters, and made good with innovative designs will enter the picture. It is a big company, has good R&D, fast concept-to-market times, solid products, good marketing prowess, good manufacturing and economy-of-scale capabilities, etc. It has good electronics, can design its own sensor, has IS/VR technology pantents, has a good partner in glass technology and years of experience in optics and a broad arrays of technologies both direct and ancialliary. It will bring lots of headaches, if not a level of concern, not just to Pentax or Canon or Nikon or whoever.
Next year Panasonic will release it's own DSLR.
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- Caterpillar
K1000Photographer
Veteran Member
The sensor is mission critical but Kodak and Sony would love to sell a lot of DSLR ready sensors. Either one would be quite willing to supply a soon to be big player. Messing up the supply to Pentax could also jeopardize future business. Since Kodak and Sony are trying to beat the other, Pentax could be able to get a good deal. The rest of the story for Pentax will be marketing, forecasting and manufacturing capacity.
Joe Barnhart
Senior Member
In my (not so) humble opinion, it's nuts to say Pentax is at a disadvantage because they don't make their own sensors. Nikon makes sensors, but they ALSO use Sony sensors in their DSLRs because Sony sensors are some of the best. And if Sony sensors are surpassed by another maker, they Pentax can change suppliers. This is how the world works today. There are many sensor makers in the world today -- you left out the fact that Kodak sensors are a team effort with several other companies.
caterpillar
Veteran Member
Of course not. But if you live where I live, then supply is important. If I were in the middle of the desert, I can't say, "one country is not the entire world... there's lots of water." Sure there's lots of water, but not where I am now! Sure there's lots of Pentax lenses, but not where I am not, at least the 2nd hand type.
I didn't say, the were not available. I'm not daft. I did my research. I went to the Pentax store SM-North. Went to the HQ of Pentax in Cubao. I saw the lenses. So, don't put words into my mouth. It would be stupid for the local Pentax to sell slrs and dslrs and not have lenses to sell. And it would be blind of me not to see them on display prominently on the stores. They have hardly any product to sell, so they have to put something on those displays.
Looky here. Dont' dance off the pickle you are in. DID YOU CALL, Edna? I gave you her no. Did you check the local and official distributor of Sigma lenses and ask if they have pentax mount? Did you call to see if I lied?
And why go international? You have them here (as you claim). But it is NOT IN STOCK. You have to order. Go ahead, order from Sigma. My friends order one. Romy Ocon (liquidstone) ordered a U$4,000 or so lens from them (320-800mm I think).
BUT THEY DO NOT STOCK PENTAX MOUNT LENSES!
Also, not everybody else has international credit cards. I have cards, but not Int'l. I have to ask a friend or friends to order for me. My 100mm f2 was ordered from abroad. So with my film eos 300 and tamron 1.4tc and now the kenko 1.4x tc. I don't like doing this because I don't like hassling friends. Besides, the price difference is only about U$100. You add shipping and the price savings for Canon stuff is only about U$50. So, unless the item is hard to find here (like a 100 f2) or TCs, I don't bother my friends.
But we are not talking international here. Locally, kid. Locally. Becasue this is where you are. And if any problems you can march back to the store instead of finding that box and all the cushion and spending your own cash shipping it back to them and they charging you back for shipping.
Now you are truly misinformed. ALL FD (pre EF) are not compatible with EF mounts. It's a simple thing, get an old FD lens and mount it. Any reasonable person will see that size alone its different. It's not going to mount!
I stand by what you said. You are misinformed.
Don's shift the focus kid. I didn't say anything. Your pentax lenses are your business. I won't touch them. I don't care if it is or isn't compatible with your dlsr. I am not going to and assuming anything about pentax. You brought up the canon issue, so I stick with that.
And yes, Pentax makes and still do make great primes. We agree on that.
What truth? The truth that you still have not anwered my question as to whether you called Edna Ong of JT and checked if there is a Pentax mount Sigma?
No it's like talking to yourself. Except, I have nicer legs and I argue better. I present option. I present facts. I don't go into battle and say stuff I can't back up. And if I make guesses, I say they are guesses. If I am proven wrong, I admit them. After all, these are a discussion fora. No big deal.
But I don't drop a line say its the "truth" (to use your workds). I don't pretend them to be facts (or the truth). When I am not sure I say so. And when you say something, if I can check them, I check them. I checked them. And you are caught with your hand in the cookie jar or to be more precise, with your pants down. Except, this is not the Garci tapes. It's all there in black and white for all to see.
Go ahead. Call Edna Ong of JT. Ask about the Pentax mount Sigmas. See if they are on stock now. The no is (+632) 536-6591.
Then tell me what is the "truth."
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- Caterpillar
caterpillar
Veteran Member
Joele,
So, it won't be limited to sigma, I would like you to know that the local distributor, the official distributor of Tamron in the Philippines is Photokina Marketing Corp. You know, the same company that lost billions on that electoral counting machines the Supreme court said was an illegal deal with the Comelec.
I'll make it easy on you -- (+632) 371-1388. Address is 117 West Ave. Quezon City 1104.
Go ahead. Call them. Ask about Tamron lenses in pentax mount. Ask them about nikon or canon mount. Go ahead. See if you can find one. Much less for pentax.
And if they don't have them. Ask just for a price. And be surprised how much they cost.
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So, it won't be limited to sigma, I would like you to know that the local distributor, the official distributor of Tamron in the Philippines is Photokina Marketing Corp. You know, the same company that lost billions on that electoral counting machines the Supreme court said was an illegal deal with the Comelec.
I'll make it easy on you -- (+632) 371-1388. Address is 117 West Ave. Quezon City 1104.
Go ahead. Call them. Ask about Tamron lenses in pentax mount. Ask them about nikon or canon mount. Go ahead. See if you can find one. Much less for pentax.
And if they don't have them. Ask just for a price. And be surprised how much they cost.
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- Caterpillar
Joele
Senior Member
Why would I call your distributor??? Earlier I said I CAN GET the full range of Sigma lenses for Pentax mount here and YOU said
" The real question is will the local distributor stock lenses for Pentax if it is slow moving? But the good news is, I bet they would get it for you if you order it (with a down payment of course). But that's the rub, it's not readily available."
That is simply not true in Australia I do not have to buy from America my local distributor has it all... That is what I was trying to poi
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Joel - *ist DS/P30n/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
" The real question is will the local distributor stock lenses for Pentax if it is slow moving? But the good news is, I bet they would get it for you if you order it (with a down payment of course). But that's the rub, it's not readily available."
That is simply not true in Australia I do not have to buy from America my local distributor has it all... That is what I was trying to poi
Mine does, but based on YOUR situation you made the mistake of assuming the situation is the same everywhere and telling me that I could not get the stock without it being ordered in for me, that is far from the truth.
That is a shame I am not denying the situation may be difficult for YOU in YOUR country all I am saying is that it is not the same everywhere, how hard is that to understand?
Yes I can buy locally that is what I am saying KID...
The truth is the situation in your country is not the same everywhere, I have explained this numerous times now, has it sunk in yet kid?
If changing your point to keep the arguement going is 'better' then maybe youo do argue better than me?
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Joel - *ist DS/P30n/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
Joele
Senior Member
Here we go again, in my country Maxwells is the distibutor of Tamron (and Nikon) and they have full stock of Pentax lenses for the same price as the Canon and Nikon mount...
I don't care less what the situation in your country is, as I never claimed you could get those lenses in your country but a few posts back YOU told ME I couldn't get Pentax mount lenses in mine...
YOU WERE WRONG!!!
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Joel - *ist DS/P30n/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
I don't care less what the situation in your country is, as I never claimed you could get those lenses in your country but a few posts back YOU told ME I couldn't get Pentax mount lenses in mine...
YOU WERE WRONG!!!
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Joel - *ist DS/P30n/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
misterpiggo
Leading Member
I see. The pentaprism makes a significant difference.
I neglected to understand how superior it is to a pentamirror.
I better go order mine soon!!!
I appreciate your input.
=)
I neglected to understand how superior it is to a pentamirror.
I better go order mine soon!!!
I appreciate your input.
=)
Darren M
Senior Member
My god you are thick Caterpillar. How many times has Joel said that he is talking about where he lives and the world in general? You keep going back to the Phils. How could it matter less to Joel about the availability of Pentax mount lenses in the Phils? He lives in Aus, where Pentax is well supplied. You really seem to have difficulty in understanding that the Phillippines does not represent the rest of the world. In your case, Canon was the logical choice; I haven't heard anyone deny that. However, you do not represent the world, you really don't.
Your continuing to ignore and purposely misread what Joel and others are saying shows to me that you are only here because you have an axe to grind and and agenda to push. This is little different than a troll IMO.
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http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com
Have camera, will travel
Your continuing to ignore and purposely misread what Joel and others are saying shows to me that you are only here because you have an axe to grind and and agenda to push. This is little different than a troll IMO.
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http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com
Have camera, will travel
Darren M
Senior Member
I had missed this and this is an important one IMO. Being able to sync at any shutter speed can be a real plus at times. I can see wedding photographers (outside shooting, often midday) to really find this one important. There do seem to be a number of reasons to go to the DS over the DL.
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http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com
Have camera, will travel
No, but a lot of Canon owners did not consider the Pentax. If they all had, then some would have found that the Canon system was better for them and some would have found that the Pentax system was better for them.
Nobody's saying that Canon users are mentally deficient or have been tricked, but looking at the sales numbers for two very capable and fundamentally similar cameras (each system with definite pros and cons) and few Canonites exposed to the Pentax (but so many Pentaxers exposed to the Canon) does make one think that Canon's marketing may have had a slight [sarcasm] effect.
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http://www.apt131.com/photolog.html
Nobody's saying that Canon users are mentally deficient or have been tricked, but looking at the sales numbers for two very capable and fundamentally similar cameras (each system with definite pros and cons) and few Canonites exposed to the Pentax (but so many Pentaxers exposed to the Canon) does make one think that Canon's marketing may have had a slight [sarcasm] effect.
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http://www.apt131.com/photolog.html
K1000Photographer
Veteran Member
I am curious. How many XT buyers looked at the DS or any other camera?
K1000Photographer
Veteran Member
Typically the penta mirror would not be as good. It is something to keep our eyes on. Maybe the DL will have an equal or almost equal viewfinder to that of the DS. For example, I did look through a D50's pentamirror. It was fairly bright but the clarity was not like that of the DS. The DS pentaprism is a known and SHOULD be better. I am not saying it is. I am just being cautious.
tellem_esdreamin
Forum Enthusiast
Yes i was wondering that too.
Come back Theodore, come back...............
was it something we said?
Come back Theodore, come back...............
was it something we said?
I know that for me when I was looking to buy my first DSLR Pentax had absolutely nothing available and my only real options were Nikon and Canon. It wasn’t until years later that Pentax came out with the ist and by that time it really didn’t matter to me if it was a good camera or not.
I think the merits of the Pentax cameras can speak pretty well for themselves without Pentax enthusiasts having to make up things about the other brands. The Rebel XT is an outstanding camera and the fact that the Pentax is very close to it says a lot for Pentax. Personally I don’t think the DS is a superior product to the XT but I think it is a very solid product that I could easily be satisfied with.
No doubt marketing moves cameras though it certainly doesn’t hurt at all that they are marketing an excellent product. My opinion is that anyone who thinks that the popularity of Canon and Nikon is solely due to hype has their head in the clouds.
Greg
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http://www.pbase.com/dadas115/
I think the merits of the Pentax cameras can speak pretty well for themselves without Pentax enthusiasts having to make up things about the other brands. The Rebel XT is an outstanding camera and the fact that the Pentax is very close to it says a lot for Pentax. Personally I don’t think the DS is a superior product to the XT but I think it is a very solid product that I could easily be satisfied with.
No doubt marketing moves cameras though it certainly doesn’t hurt at all that they are marketing an excellent product. My opinion is that anyone who thinks that the popularity of Canon and Nikon is solely due to hype has their head in the clouds.
Greg
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http://www.pbase.com/dadas115/
I can tell you that I checked out the DS and thought it was plenty nice. Personally I would have gone with the Canon even if I didn’t already own a single Canon product because of what I am doing with the camera. Canon has a better lens selection for the type of photography that I do. While it seems that many here like to downplay features like IS on long FL lenses, I have quite a bit of experience with it and find it to be a very valuable feature. Take a look at my wildlife galleries, not a single shot in there was taken using a tripod.
Greg
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http://www.pbase.com/dadas115/
Greg
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http://www.pbase.com/dadas115/
Brett St Pierre
Veteran Member
I think that is Canon stength, the long lenses zooms and primes while Pentax has always had a strength in shorter primes and from my personal experience with having owned an EOS SLR as well as Pentax SLRs for almost 20 years that Pentax still has the best short primes - we have described them here many times, not just resolution, in fact it is the bokeh (the 50/1.4 is the arguable leader of fast 50s) and almost "sparkle" almsot 3D effect things like the FA31/1.8 and perfectly place DOF of the FA85/1.4 produce.
Canon on the other hand really do produce decent lenses right across the range even if some don't have the jewel like character they are perfect to get-the-job-done and especially in sports and journalism that is what counts.
Not a "fine art award" but achieves "press awards"
IS? hmmm I am not sold yet, every time I try it on my friend's EOS3 it feels very strange to me (he turned if off as he hates it and is not looking for a fast lens instead) -- still can't dispute that it works for many people. The "talk" is Pentax are going the in-body IS route like the 7D (in fact they had a patent on IS many years ago?) -- we shall see, certainly seems more appealling to me -- bodied come and go but my perfect primes will keep on going and with in-body IS who needs a new lens!
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Brett
The Journey is the Thing
What is false here? The notion that marketing influences people? Considering that I have seen Canon owners say that Pentax doesn't make lenses, that it isn't a DSLR (!!!), that the *istDS produces fuzzy pictures, that third party makers don't make anything in Pentax mount, that the only telephoto lenses Pentax makes are medium format, that its autofocus is groaningly slow, and that JPG is unusable - then if something false has been stated in this thread about the 350XT, then I'm sure Canon loyalists can appriciate how ridiculous one looks when they start spilling out statements they cannot back up with actual fact and night reconsider and research before they begin to speak.
No, the fact that Pentax produced the D and the DS says a lot about Pentax, irrelivant of what Canon did. Very close? Both cameras have pros and cons, but to put the DS in an "also ran" position against the XT? Give me a break. When the DS came out, the 300D was occupying its place. The choice to be made was Pentax or Nikon at that point.
You are thinking too much in terms of better and worse. What is essential for a birder isn't needed for a landscape photographer and vise versa. The DS is the absolute best camera for MY needs. Obviously, the Canon is the best camera for YOUR needs. Yes, that makes your camera superior to the DS for YOUR needs, applications, and preferances.
I NEVER said that Canon's popularity was due SOLELY to marketing. I don't think anyone did, but it is a huge factor. A lot of people are like my mom, a 300D owner. She did not consider the other offerings. She thought that the Canon was good because she'd seen the commercials and heard the hype and went and bought herself one. Her research consisted of asking me what I thought. I told her that the 300D was a fine choice because the additional features of the other cameras would be lost on her style of shooting. Are most 300D owners like her? Probably not, but a large portion of the population makes buying decisions based on hype and you can't say that there aren't Canon users out there that would be better suited with something else, but didn't bother to look.
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http://www.apt131.com/photolog.html
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